[Dolmen 2.0]

Ahh so its the sorcery at play here...

for the crazy idea project I wanted to try texture
the maps the forumites have put together...
And create a climate map.

Is it cool for me to use Wertheads contribution
as a template?

[Gothos]

I think someone already did that / got started on it so I'd say go ahead. Though I'm not Werthead.

[Gothos]

Aight I was thinking about attempting to create a Wu map for Civilization V... have you been working on implementing Korel/Fist from Stonewielder into the map, Werthead? Anyone?

[D'rek]

Given that there's no scale on the Korelri map, I'd say put it at whatever size fits best. Jakata/Malaz Isle on the map isn't a good scale comparison because it's only fabled to their mind and they probably don't remember how big or small it is.

[Ozymandiac]

Actually, a scale for Korel could be constructed, without using the fabled size of Jakata.

Even though there is no scale on the map of Korel, there is a scale on the map that shows the Stormwall in detail. (http://115.124.110.1...01289582022.jpg)

So, you could take the distance between Storm and Kor, see how many leagues it is, and then use this to make a scale for the Korel map.

It's only an estimate, but could give a good indication of the size of the continent.

EDIT: OK, I used Paint to estimate the distance between Storm and Kor at 86 leagues by taking the centres of the cities as their locations and converting their distance in pixels to leagues. Then, using some good ol'e Pythagoras, I translated this to the Korel map to make a scale - it's in the upper left corner. The main error will be in the folding of the two different pages, at Elri. Despite that, I ought to be quite accurate.

Attached File(s)

•  Map Korelri.JPG (289.67K)
  Number of downloads: 18

This post has been edited by Ozymandiac: 16 November 2010 - 03:54 PM

[D'iversify]

Based on your scale, I estimate the distance between Skolati/North Fist Island and the Frostbacks as being a little over a thousand miles and the distance between the Screaming Range and East Watch as a little under 1500. So an area of 1,500,000 miles square. Given that between 50 and 75% of the intervening area is sea, I'd say that Fist/Korelri's land area is roughly somewhere between that of Mexico's and that of Egypt's. Theft/Korelri Island is a little under a 1,000 miles long.

[Ozymandiac]

D, on 18 November 2010 - 02:09 PM, said:

Based on your scale, I estimate the distance between Skolati/North Fist Island and the Frostbacks as being a little over a thousand miles and the distance between the Screaming Range and East Watch as a little under 1500. So an area of 1,500,000 miles square. Given that between 50 and 75% of the intervening area is sea, I'd say that Fist/Korelri's land area is roughly somewhere between that of Mexico's and that of Egypt's. Theft/Korelri Island is a little under a 1,000 miles long.

That's assuming a league is equal to a mile.

[MTS]

A league is about three miles IIRC, so it would be a bit bigger than you describe.

[D'iversify]

I assumed a league was three miles in calculating. And I believe it's been established elsewhere that Korelri/Fist isn't really that big, at least compared to Quon Tali/Falar, 7C etc.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Ok, so this started out as the stonewielder map that pat posted, pasted over top of sadists world map. just so i could look at it and orient myself globally. i sized it so that korel was roughly equal to the size of quon tali (it could probably be shrunk even more), and then shifted it about until the isolation and all that we've heard of korels orientation with quon tali made sense enough to satisfy myself. then i started adjusting the stratem coastline, just for shits and giggles. mostly cuz i was putting off tracing the coastlines of korel and doing all the colouring. well, i finally got around to that tonight, and i feel like i should show you all. the quality is obviously not great - it was done in paint - but i'm pretty proud of it nonetheless.

feel free to take it and adjust it or resize anything, lets get this thing accurate

Attached File(s)

•  malazanmapresize.jpg (57.5K)
  Number of downloads: 16

[T'renn]

Judging on the size and distance of Malaz on the stonewielder map, Korel should be both closer to Malaz and smaller than the size shown here
Still, very nice

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 19 January 2011 - 08:36 AM

[Gothos]

I think it should be slightly smaller than Quon Tali, no?

[Sinisdar Toste]

heres a version with a smaller korel which is closer to quon tali

Attached File(s)

•  malazankorelresize.jpg (56.58K)
  Number of downloads: 13

[Kalkin]

Unfortunately I'm a bit too lazy to read every single page...so I just wanted to say great job on all of the maps I've seen, I just kind of wish I had it when I was reading the series...

Thanks for the work you put into making them, like I said, it helps a lot with the lack of topography... by which I mean all the of the descriptions are throughout the entire series, and there was no collection (map) of it in one place, like these.

[D'rek]

I think Stratem looks a bit too big and crazy - remember this is a sub-continent that the Malazan Empire invaded from 3 sides simultaneously, and that the Crimson Guard had set up a line of forts from coast to coast. I think it's actually rather small. Assail's giant southern peninsula doesn't really go with the idea that Bael is the southern part of the continent and 'Assail' lands are north of it (without a giant sea in between). I also don't think the west side of 7C should be quite so huge, considering the only nations we even know of on it are Shal-Morzinn, Perish and Nemil, none of which are ever indicated to being larger than the entire Malazan empire...

My minute recommendations aside, looks great and keep up the hard work!

This post has been edited by D'rek: 08 February 2011 - 06:50 PM

[snake0026]

And Jacuruku is also to the West of Korel, but otherwise looks amazing.

[Sinisdar Toste]

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

And Jacuruku is also to the West of Korel, but otherwise looks amazing.

weeellll... there's no small amount of confusion on that point. RotCG makes it pretty clear that jacuruku is to the east, yet the moi prologue describes k'rul walking across korel from east to west to get to jacuruku iirc. imo, the moi prologue is mistaken, just cuz its much easier to say that west and east should have been exchanged than to try and rationalize all the sailing around that kyle and erekos crew did in rotcg

[snake0026]

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 February 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

RotCG makes it pretty clear that jacuruku is to the east

Actually, if anything, RotCG suggests Jacuruku to be to the west of Korel/Stratem.

First off, we have the Crimson Guard's return journey to Stratem from Bael, one that would have undoubtedly been long and monotonous. Had Jacuruku indeed been located between Assail and Stratem, it would thus stand to reason that either someone, Smoky perhaps, would have possibly made some offhanded remark about the continent's presence as they pass it by, or, more likely, the fleet would have stopped somewhere on the continent to resupply (while you can argue that Shimmer and co may have been unaware of the existence of Skinner's Crimson Guard friendly (theoretically) kingdom on Jacuruku, such a stance would thus also imply that Shimmer would be unawares of the neighbouring hostile mage kingdom, thereby giving her no reason not to stop to resupply on Jacuruku, were it in fact located to the east).

Second, after Kyle and the Lost Bros meet up with Ereko and Traveller on the west coast of Stratem, and Kyle suggests a trip to the Dolmens on Jacuruku, the Lost Bros don't offer a single complaint, and are in fact content to visit Jacuruku, so long as it's anyplace but home [Assail]. Were Jacuruku to the east of Stratem, this visit would thus take Kyle and the Lost Bros halfway back to Assail, which, while Kyle may be unawares, should have definitely elicited some sort of comment from Stalker, Badlands, or Coots.

Granted, these first two points, by virtue of being based on omission rather than on stated fact, do not necessarily support Jacuruku as being west of Stratem, however, they do suggest an implausibility of an easterly geographic location for the continent.

Perhaps more helpful in discerning the location of Jacuruku are the actual directions that we are told the Kite heads in following their departure from the west coast of Stratem.

First off, we have Ereko directing them north along the Stratem coast as they leave the fishing village,

Quote

Ereko steered them north, parallel to the shore and slightly seaward.

(mmpb, pg 433)

Were they trying to get to Jacuruku to the east, a northerly direction would thus necessitate that they either bypass Korel and traverse the Sea of Storms (a path which would bring them virtually to Quon Tali, never mind also necessitating them having to deal with the Stormriders) or they could attempt to go through Damos Bay and the inner seas of the Korel subcontinent, neither of which scenario happened, effectively telling us that Ereko then sailed west to Jacuruku.

But one could conversely argue that perhaps, due to shoals or reefs or whatnot, Ereko was only forced to head north temporarily, to circumvent them, before then reaching the open sea and heading south, around the southern Stratem coast, and then east to Jacuruku, and argument that may indeed be leant weight by the following passage,

Quote

Unsure, he raised his chin to the ice dotted waves, "What is that light to the south?"
Ereko did not turn his gaze. Even yet the power of that ritual bruises. "That pale bluish light?"
"Yes."
"A great field of ice, Kyle, quite perilous. To travel there is to risk wandering into another realm. A place of eternal cold. The home of another race."
"And these ice mountains?"
...
"Don't you know that such ice is the feat of the Jaghut?"

(mmpb, pg 486-487)

However, while this could indeed be a south pole style area, south of Stratem, the fact that the ice was birthed from Omtose Phellack more or less negates this argument as they could really be anywhere and are not bound by our laws of nature. So, while this passage may not preclude the Kite from being off the southern coast of Stratem venturing eastwards, it likewise does not preclude the possibility that they are venturing westward from Stratem.

Next up, we have their actual arrival at Jacuruku, where they proceed to skirt the coast going northwest, which is completely consistent with the Kite having made a northwest journey from the western coast of Stratem, lending further credence to Jacuruku being situated in a western location, rather then an eastern one.

Quote

Ereko skillfully wove the Kite through gaps in reefs as they skirted north-west.

(mmpb, pg 579)

Were Jacuruku located to the east of Stratem (and presumbably north as well), they would have been skirting the coast in a northeasterly direction (unless they perhaps overshot the entire continent and had to double back going northwest, which I find incredibly unlikely, for no reason other than Ereko was at the tiller).

Then, when they leave Jacuruku for Quon, they start by heading north and then proceed to go northeast.

Quote

Traveller sat at the bow, arms crossed over his knees. Jan turned them north.

(mmpb, pg 669)

Quote

"He said to stop trying to go around. Just head on north-east."

(mmpb, pg 729)

Thus affirming that Jacuruku is indeed west of Stratem, Korel, and Quon Tali.

And of course there is Hetan's post #106 where she posts her rendition of SE's latest world map (subject to change, of course), that has what I believe is Jacuruku sandwiched between Korel and the Lether continent, southwest of Quon Tali.

So, the only real question is how far to the west of the Korel/Stratem continent is Jacuruku, and how far to the south, relative to Quon Tali, is it? For, as you correctly pointed out, it does seem as though Kyle and co spend an inordinate amount of time sailing to and from the continent (most of the book actually, during which time the Crimson Guard have been able to sail north from the Sea of Chimes, past Korel, up to Unta, and then down to Cawn, before marching inland to Li Heng). So, either Jacuruku, while to the west, is quite a ways further to the west then, say, the distance between Quon Tali and Korel, Kyle's sojourn to shadow seriously distorted his perception of time (as time works differently in the warrens), or it was simply a (small) oversight on Esselmont's part.

This post has been edited by snake0026: 14 February 2011 - 08:15 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

This is my first visit to this thread so I'm a little overwhelmed - so much good stuff, I repped as I went through the back catalogue. One thing that's confusing me though is Lether... Is no one else feeling a little strange about its location? I'm mainly thinking about BH and RG here. Basically Tavore and the 14th sailed almost (but not quite, as I'm not sure of scale and have bad spatial reasoning) PAST Lether on their way back to Malaz in tBH? When we see them again in RG Twilight says they sailed halfway around the world. I mean I guess they sailed a good ways, but comparatively speaking, is that really halfway around the world? Also, if Kolanse is somewhere on the western portion of the Lether landmass as it seems to be in all the maps we've seen, wouldn't that mean that Tavore basically sailed... past it to get to Letheras on the eastern portion? Huh? I understand she needed to go wallop Rhulad but given what seems to be the incredible intensity of her mission, why did she sail virtually AROUND the continent, burn her ships, then march across it?

Maybe I am totally, totally completely lost. All of this is also contingent on my thinking that the big, leftmost continent on your latest map, Toste, is Lether.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 14 February 2011 - 08:29 PM

[D'rek]

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 14 February 2011 - 05:40 PM, said:

RotCG makes it pretty clear that jacuruku is to the east

Actually, if anything, RotCG suggests Jacuruku to be to the west of Korel/Stratem.

First off, we have the Crimson Guard's return journey to Stratem from Bael, one that would have undoubtedly been long and monotonous. Had Jacuruku indeed been located between Assail and Stratem, it would thus stand to reason that either someone, Smoky perhaps, would have possibly made some offhanded remark about the continent's presence as they pass it by, or, more likely, the fleet would have stopped somewhere on the continent to resupply (while you can argue that Shimmer and co may have been unaware of the existence of Skinner's Crimson Guard friendly (theoretically) kingdom on Jacuruku, such a stance would thus also imply that Shimmer would be unawares of the neighbouring hostile mage kingdom, thereby giving her no reason not to stop to resupply on Jacuruku, were it in fact located to the east).

First of all, there's no reason to assume that a north-west voyage from Bael to Stratem would necessitate passing near Jacuruku just because it is east of Korel. Bael could be the southernmost part of Assail and thus further south than Stratem, while Jacuruku need not stretch very far south at all while still being east of Korel.

Nor is the lack of any character mentioning particularly good evidence that it isn't there. The experienced Crimson Guard in RotCG are early on shown not to bother explaining things to their younger brethren, and besides maybe Smoky did mention it... off screen.

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Second, after Kyle and the Lost Bros meet up with Ereko and Traveller on the west coast of Stratem, and Kyle suggests a trip to the Dolmens on Jacuruku, the Lost Bros don't offer a single complaint, and are in fact content to visit Jacuruku, so long as it's anyplace but home [Assail]. Were Jacuruku to the east of Stratem, this visit would thus take Kyle and the Lost Bros halfway back to Assail, which, while Kyle may be unawares, should have definitely elicited some sort of comment from Stalker, Badlands, or Coots.

Really? So if you were in Europe and didn't want to go to Australia (but knew that the Australian danger was contained to that continent anyways), you'd be afraid to go anywhere in Asia?

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Perhaps more helpful in discerning the location of Jacuruku are the actual directions that we are told the Kite heads in following their departure from the west coast of Stratem.

First off, we have Ereko directing them north along the Stratem coast as they leave the fishing village,

Quote

Ereko steered them north, parallel to the shore and slightly seaward.

(mmpb, pg 433)

Were they trying to get to Jacuruku to the east, a northerly direction would thus necessitate that they either bypass Korel and traverse the Sea of Storms (a path which would bring them virtually to Quon Tali, never mind also necessitating them having to deal with the Stormriders) or they could attempt to go through Damos Bay and the inner seas of the Korel subcontinent, neither of which scenario happened, effectively telling us that Ereko then sailed west to Jacuruku.

But one could conversely argue that perhaps, due to shoals or reefs or whatnot, Ereko was only forced to head north temporarily, to circumvent them, before then reaching the open sea and heading south, around the southern Stratem coast, and then east to Jacuruku, and argument that may indeed be leant weight by the following passage,

Quote

Unsure, he raised his chin to the ice dotted waves, "What is that light to the south?"
Ereko did not turn his gaze. Even yet the power of that ritual bruises. "That pale bluish light?"
"Yes."
"A great field of ice, Kyle, quite perilous. To travel there is to risk wandering into another realm. A place of eternal cold. The home of another race."
"And these ice mountains?"
...
"Don't you know that such ice is the feat of the Jaghut?"

(mmpb, pg 486-487)

However, while this could indeed be a south pole style area, south of Stratem, the fact that the ice was birthed from Omtose Phellack more or less negates this argument as they could really be anywhere and are not bound by our laws of nature. So, while this passage may not preclude the Kite from being off the southern coast of Stratem venturing eastwards, it likewise does not preclude the possibility that they are venturing westward from Stratem.

Considering both Ereko and Traveller recently fled the Stormwall, I imagine they'd want to avoid passing right through the Korel sub-continent.

Spoiler

On the other hand, there's nothing disproving that they may in fact have gone through the inner Korel seas, in which case the icy lands to the south would be the Iceback Ranges.

And so what if they went around Korel to the north and were near Quon Tali? They wanted to get to the Dolmens so they'd hardly care about going to Quon Tali at the time.

Spoiler

As for the Stormriders, maybe it wasn't winter.

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Next up, we have their actual arrival at Jacuruku, where they proceed to skirt the coast going northwest, which is completely consistent with the Kite having made a northwest journey from the western coast of Stratem, lending further credence to Jacuruku being situated in a western location, rather then an eastern one.

Quote

Ereko skillfully wove the Kite through gaps in reefs as they skirted north-west.

(mmpb, pg 579)

Were Jacuruku located to the east of Stratem (and presumbably north as well), they would have been skirting the coast in a northeasterly direction (unless they perhaps overshot the entire continent and had to double back going northwest, which I find incredibly unlikely, for no reason other than Ereko was at the tiller).

They were away from land for a while, who's to say where they first came into sight of Jacuruku. It was south of where they were headed, so they followed the coast northwards [fact]. Jacuruku's west coast could easily cut a north and west diagonal shape, thus they would need to travel north-west to reach the north side of Jacuruku [speculation].

snake0026, on 14 February 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

Then, when they leave Jacuruku for Quon, they start by heading north and then proceed to go northeast.

Quote

Traveller sat at the bow, arms crossed over his knees. Jan turned them north.

(mmpb, pg 669)

Quote

"He said to stop trying to go around. Just head on north-east."

(mmpb, pg 729)

Thus affirming that Jacuruku is indeed west of Stratem, Korel, and Quon Tali.

And of course there is Hetan's post #106 where she posts her rendition of SE's latest world map (subject to change, of course), that has what I believe is Jacuruku sandwiched between Korel and the Lether continent, southwest of Quon Tali.

So, the only real question is how far to the west of the Korel/Stratem continent is Jacuruku, and how far to the south, relative to Quon Tali, is it? For, as you correctly pointed out, it does seem as though Kyle and co spend an inordinate amount of time sailing to and from the continent (most of the book actually, during which time the Crimson Guard have been able to sail north from the Sea of Chimes, past Korel, up to Unta, and then down to Cawn, before marching inland to Li Heng). So, either Jacuruku, while to the west, is quite a ways further to the west then, say, the distance between Quon Tali and Korel, Kyle's sojourn to shadow seriously distorted his perception of time (as time works differently in the warrens), or it was simply a (small) oversight on Esselmont's part.

The north-east bit, though, is when they are trying to avoid the storm sent by ST, after Jan has made 3 course corrections, and they know they can't avoid it so who's to say for sure that north-east is even towards Quon Tali at this point?


One quote you didn't mention is this, from when the group are camped on the shore of Jacuruku the morning after meeting Jhest:

Quote

Book II, Chapter 4: (p. 585 in UK mmpb)

The day brightened and the sun rose like a ball of fire over the jungle. Kyle thought it a wondrous sight, quite unlike anything he'd seen on the prairie. It was as if the entire east jungle was aflame.

If they had gone west to Jacuruku, then they would've had to have gone around it entirely in order to be on the west coast and see the sun rise over the jungle in the east.


Overall, I think Kyle's journey has too many directional quotes that, if all taken to be indicative of overall direction (rather than changing direction to dodge a reef momentarily), end up conflicting. Depending on what quotes you take to indicate overall direction and which are brief context-specific ones, you can shape them to put Jacuruku on either side.

However, Iron Bars' journey is much more specific in this matter.

From RG:

Quote

They had deposited the mercenaries on a stony beach of the eastern shore of a land called Jacuruku [...] determined as they were to do whatever it was they had to do, which, in this instance, was cross Jacuruku from one coast to the other, then find themselves another ship.
A huge world indeed.

After which we next see them being pulled from the wreckage of a raft, Bars taking over the new ship and:

Quote

Make southwest round the Cape for Stratem.

and it's quite a stretch of the imagination that Bars crossed a western Jacuruku entirely, then sailed right past Korel/Stratem only to get wrecked in the ocean beyond it.