[Powder]

Just stumbled across an interesting tidbit concerning the Nah'ruk. Itis said in tBH that the Nah'ruk are 'godless' (dialog between mappo andspite after Ganath gets owned by thenah'ruk). I am wondering how this plays into previous discussions about Tavore & co's run in with them. If they are 'godless' can they be used by a god? Including ones such as Oponn/Errant/etc? What does this mean concerning our final book? The Nah'ruk are closeby (in the imperial warren) to the BH in the book bearing their name--why not pop out then and power own them (other than the obvious answer of foreshadowing/does not make a good story that way). Quick already got a nice look at all their sky keeps here as well, this (besides not seeing his blackened corpse pass through to see WJ/IJ at hoods ex-gate) probably increases his survivability. Lastly, it is said in the same dialog that they are slaves to machines and order instead, perhaps then these two characters are wrong, and there is a God of order out there? Conversely does that mean that there is a god of Chaos behind the actions of kaminsod?

-powder

PS: Thank you for all of your well thought out and insightful posts, you forum regulars never let me down.

EDIT page 522-526 (in the big paper back {Im not sure what the proper name is for such a thing})

This post has been edited by Powder: 19 October 2009 - 06:04 PM

[Abyss]

It's certainly wide open to be revealed that the CG is behind the Nahruk somehow. He's good at that sort of thing, after all.

But then, why send them after the KC, unless that was just a convenient (manipulative) way to get them to attack to Malazans?

There's also whomever was behind the HoL's play for Dragnipur in TtH, and again, it COULD have been the CG, but more likely it was some other player.

But coming back full circle, at some time way back when, the Nahruk were intelligent and willful enough to revolt against the Matrons and even almost cut a deal with Silchas and the Andii. Plus they had enough initiative to capture a dragon and use it to open a gate big enough to march an army with air suppoer thru to attack their ancient enemies - point being SOMEONE is directing the short-tails, and, at least in practical terms, it's someone who has lizard interests in mind.

of course, we saw in the Pannion Domin and the Letherii Edur and even the Whirlwind that subverting empires via their own interests is sort of a CG specialty...

- Abyss, subverts drinking games to his own interests...

[amphibian]

Powder, on 19 October 2009 - 06:01 PM, said:

EDIT page 522-526 (in the big paper back {Im not sure what the proper name is for such a thing})

There's the hardcovers (the expensive ones with the hard covers), the trade paperbacks (generally the 'big paper backs' with the nice paper and cool art, and then there's the mass market paperbacks (the small paper backs, easily ripping, cheap paper, not so awesome art).

The impression I got from the Nah'ruk attack is that the Nah'ruk were going somewhere and their path happened to cross the Bonehunters' at a terrible time. So picture two almost parallel lines that intersect way down the line - that might be what the skykeeps in the Imperial Warren were about.

[Ulrik]

Well, Im not able to suck every info after one read (and reread is stucked at HoC, new Abercrombie, ynow;)), soooo, few question/ideas
- is ruled out that there is Nahruk matron? From my view, Nahruks give a damn about Malazans, primary target was theis bad bad brothers (masters, creators...etc), KCM. So can it be easily set as "Matron sends her little army of ants against Rooted"?
- I think its pretty clear (OK, there can be plan behind plan, but...well, everyone can by Cylon) that BH was caught by accident between Nahruk and KCM position and slaughtered only because, well, Nahruk do not make detours! And of course, when some petty soletaken High Mage anihilates few thousands of them, who wouldnt be pis...erm, angry?
- I think that Nahruk storyline is closed by SE thru Icarium. Maybe ICE use theam again, but Nahruk are Tenescowri for me. Power of enormous strengh who cripples best of best and got banished. And we can count dead...well, their chewed remains (grr, still wont forgive if Ruthan, Fid and Skulldeath are dead).
- And does CG know that Malazans are coming? OK, hes god... but, he can also know why is Tavore making this gambit... it should be nice picture, CG´s Acolytes with FA genom defends their iconic master and he screams "you idiots, let them free me!"
...or defenders of CG can be taken by new formed EGA (Elder God Alliance) and poor CG just looks at the mess and guesses "...rip the chain or tighten it? OK, Skinny, go and help Malazans, yes, I know your vow, but, yknow..."

[Urb]

The Nah'ruk have a hive mind (who said that, Quick?), no? Which is essentially a really big collective brain. Why then would there have to be someone manipulating them? Surely such an entity is capable of having its own agenda, and powerful enough to be one of the major players (how many skykeeps? Holy f*** I said).

Or, the hive mind thing is just some theory I read on these forums, and what I just wrote makes no sense.

[HoosierDaddy]

Tne Hive-Mind has been mentioned in various threads, and I know I asked for a quote from the book at some point, so I'm willing to buy into it until told otherwise.

As to the Nah'ruk, someone, I think it's Gunthan Mach, remarks that the Nah'ruk have been bred down into little more than soldiers of a cause, meaning they don't need much more of a guiding direction than: "Kill all the KCCM." They have been searching for them for millenia and whatnot, so it's not like they suddenly found them out of the blue. Although, someone posted the theory that the Nah'ruk had thawed along with other things with the dying of Omtose Phellack, which considering the events in the Skykeep in The Bonehunters and the travails into the past by L'oric (where he's rescued by a sleeping Osserc) provide a modicum of support for, it would make sense why they have suddenly reentered the scene as an alternate explanation to the eons of searching.

[MTS]

And the resurgence of all the other Elder Races bar the T'lan lends support to that theory.

Someone may not be directing them per se if the hive mind theory is true, but someone could certainly be exploiting their fixation on the Che'Malle. In MT Menandore is asked by the Errant or Osserc what she has been doing, and she replies 'sky keeps', so there are definitely unseen hands behind the NR. Whether that comes in the form of direct influence or subtle exploitation is a moot point, really; the end result is the same.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 20 October 2009 - 03:45 AM

[blackzoid]

2 things

1: Where is the exact quote stating that the Nah'ruk are a hive mind? Its being mentioned on several threads indeed but I have not seen a direct quote. Its supposed to have been said by Quick Ben. I presume somewhere in DoD.
The entire speculation that the Short-Tails are a hive mind is based on this quote.

2: The Shortails Skykeeps were not freed by the Omtose Phellack ritual collapsing (probably). They came up through the warrens from Chaos. Check the section in TBH were the skykeeps first appear in the IW. A minor mage says this to Quick Ben who confirms it. Its before, Stormy, Kalam and Ben go back on Tavore's orders.

[beru]

Right before the Naruk assult QB comentonhow you can seperate one naruk and its stupid but an army of them is more or less intelegent...
also see that they have no leaders as they all aparantly shares the same thoghts at all times

[blackzoid]

I don't have the book handy.
Can you give the actual specific quote as its written please? I'm not trying to be annoying here, but it is the basis for the entire idea of the Nah'ruk having a hive mind.

BTW
One Nahruk being stupid but an army not being stupid does not explcitly equal all the Nahruk being a hive mind.Its close, but not the same. Perhaps there are classes of Nahruk we don't know about. Certainly they didn't all have those laser guns (or am I wrong on that?)

[beru]

im at school but when i get home i can try to look it up

[Abyss]

I cannot for the life of me remember what basis i had for this theory, but i thought for some reason the KN may have been hiding on the moon but had to evacuate when the Jade chunks broke it, thus, down to the world and set to wiping out competitor races, starting with their old friends the KC.

- Abyss, could be wrong.

[Theotendo]

Pg 837 in the hardcover

"... - steal one away and it's damned near mindless. Gather them in their thousands, and their will becomes one..."

An intentional (or unintentional) comparison was made to the orthen Throatslitter and his companions were playing with.

Considering the Nah'ruk brood was revived to serve as slaves (mention was made in MoI that they would not join their power to that of the Matrons - an earlier attempt at reïnvigorating the Che'malle, perhaps), it is most likely that they would've functioned in much the same way as the orthen. A hive mind of what started as hundreds before the rebellion.

Why then and there? Why not? Bad luck, the result of disparate events drawing together to screw the Bonehunters? Enough mention has already been made throughout the series that fate carries its own momentum.

If there is a god of chaos, my guess is that it would most likely be Tiam/Tiamata/whatever the loose lizard's name is. The dragons are wild forces. Beyond any control. That was the very reason why after K'rul created the warrens the gates to Starvald Demelain were sealed.

A god of order? Possible. But order requires that all forces be represented and controlled. The only singular entity I can think of that comes close is the Azath.

[blackzoid]

Theotendo, on 20 October 2009 - 03:18 PM, said:

Pg 837 in the hardcover

"... - steal one away and it's damned near mindless. Gather them in their thousands, and their will becomes one..."

An intentional (or unintentional) comparison was made to the orthen Throatslitter and his companions were playing with.

Considering the Nah'ruk brood was revived to serve as slaves (mention was made in MoI that they would not join their power to that of the Matrons - an earlier attempt at reïnvigorating the Che'malle, perhaps), it is most likely that they would've functioned in much the same way as the orthen. A hive mind of what started as hundreds before the rebellion.

Why then and there? Why not? Bad luck, the result of disparate events drawing together to screw the Bonehunters? Enough mention has already been made throughout the series that fate carries its own momentum.

If there is a god of chaos, my guess is that it would most likely be Tiam/Tiamata/whatever the loose lizard's name is. The dragons are wild forces. Beyond any control. That was the very reason why after K'rul created the warrens the gates to Starvald Demelain were sealed.

A god of order? Possible. But order requires that all forces be represented and controlled. The only singular entity I can think of that comes close is the Azath.

Thanks for that Theotendo.

As for your theory Abyss, from p93 of The Bonehunters:

Kalam to Quick Ben
"....Would that be two? Six? Fifty thousand?"


"Its not that," Sands said in a suddenly shaky coice. "It's where they've come from. Chaos. i'm right, ain't I High Mage?"

'So,' Kalam said,'the warrens really are in trouble'


This doesn't compleely ruin your theory Abyss, but it does make it improbable that the Short-Tails lived on the Moon prior to its breakup. Strangly enough for creatures that like Order, the Short-Tails were in the warren of Chaos prior to re-emerging. Or perhaps they used the Warren of Chaos as a stepping stone between the Moon and the Imperial Warren.

[HoosierDaddy]

Yes, I'm going there.

The Nah'ruk appear towards the beginning of The Bonehunters, while the Jade Statues (which supposedly destroyed the moon) didn't arrive in the sky until far later in the book.

[Powder]

blackzoid, on 20 October 2009 - 05:30 PM, said:

A god of order? Possible. But order requires that all forces be represented and controlled. The only singular entity I can think of that comes close is the Azath.


This doesn't compleely ruin your theory Abyss, but it does make it improbable that the Short-Tails lived on the Moon prior to its breakup. Strangly enough for creatures that like Order, the Short-Tails were in the warren of Chaos prior to re-emerging. Or perhaps they used the Warren of Chaos as a stepping stone between the Moon and the Imperial Warren.

I like the idea that they were on the moon. My original piece of dialog between Mappo and Spite clearly points to the Nah'ruk being slaves to order/machines. Ergo staying in chaos for eons would seem counter productive. Now as far as beings obsessed by Order go, I would put that squarely in the field of the TL. Who are also in cahoots with the moon iirc. So the KCNR jumping from moon-> chaos -> imperial warren -> wastelands seems atleast plausible given the information we have. I am also curious to their relationship regarding Icariums 'Blue Iron' warren. They sound very similar and I admit to some curiosity to the possible linkage between the two.

-Powder

Edit: maybe they have a space telescope that let them know giant jade statues of death were coming?

This post has been edited by Powder: 20 October 2009 - 06:10 PM

[Theotendo]

Another possibility that has been edged around is the fact that they used the blood of a dragon to open a gate large enough for the skykeeps to get through. The act of drilling through the fabric of the warrens is related to chaotic sorcery (as displayed by Quick in GotM). And the spilling of Draconic blood weakens that fabric enough to create wounds (like the one at Morn, though not identical).

Thus, they may not have been inside the warren of chaos, but rather (like blackzoid said) utilized the warren manipulation for their traveling arrangements.

[HoosierDaddy]

The blood of eleint is chaotic, thus K'rul's bargain, let alone using it to tear a massive rift in the world.

[Abyss]

Theotendo, on 20 October 2009 - 03:18 PM, said:

Pg 837 in the hardcover

"... - steal one away and it's damned near mindless. Gather them in their thousands, and their will becomes one..."
...

which raises an interesting point as to why a hive minded creature rebelled against a 'Queen' in the first place... maybe they geenrate their own collective mind that won't subvert itself to a Matron.

Quote

...If there is a god of chaos, my guess is that it would most likely be Tiam/Tiamata/whatever the loose lizard's name is. The dragons are wild forces. Beyond any control. That was the very reason why after K'rul created the warrens the gates to Starvald Demelain were sealed.

And the KC worship dragons, altho we don't know whether that extends to soletaken... and for that matter we don't know whether Tiam was soletaken or pureblood. (tho we DO know she's a skanky ho)

Quote

A god of order? Possible. But order requires that all forces be represented and controlled. The only singular entity I can think of that comes close is the Azath.

Interesting point you raise there. The implications are fairly staggering if it links the KN to the Azath. The fact that the NOs bound a K'chain in that keep where Karsa fought it in TB suggests this is unlikely, tho less so if it was a Shi'gal as opposed to a Nah'ruk.

blackzoid, on 20 October 2009 - 05:30 PM, said:

Thanks for that Theotendo.

As for your theory Abyss... Or perhaps they used the Warren of Chaos as a stepping stone between the Moon and the Imperial Warren.

That's what i would figure, in any event.

HoosierDaddy, on 20 October 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

...The Nah'ruk appear towards the beginning of The Bonehunters, while the Jade Statues (which supposedly destroyed the moon) didn't arrive in the sky until far later in the book.

And the moon didn't shatter until TtH, tho iirc someone comments on cracks already appearing in TB, but in TB when the fleet and Host are threatened, Paran angsts about not checking the moon, before he summons Hood.

HoosierDaddy, on 20 October 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

The blood of eleint is chaotic, thus K'rul's bargain, let alone using it to tear a massive rift in the world.

See TB prologue (i think) - Kila watchs eleint blood start to fall thru warrens. Also reference to Scabby triggering the KE shattering by shedding draconic blood. Eleint blood has a natural effect of opening warrens. The KN just used it.


- Abyss, bloody right.

[HoosierDaddy]

If it is Killy that'd be Reaper's Gale wouldn't it? Also, dried draconic blood crystallizes as well, it's how it traps spirits, thus Silchas' warning to Wither in Reaper's Gale to stay away from it. So is it both? Does the blood naturally go to the warren with which it is identified due to K'rul's bargain, perhaps?

Edit: I'm just not buying the Nah'ruk being on the Moon.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 20 October 2009 - 07:31 PM