[Mentalist]

I'm not too sure we can really compare the KCNR from millenia ago when they rebelled and destroyed the KCCM civilization on Morn with the KCNR that we have emerging now.

that's the one thing that annoys me now that I think about it--QB seems to be very up to date on the whole KCNR business. Sure, he's QB, but still.

another point--if Tiam's the goddes of Chaos, i think it's been stated pretty explicitly that the OD is her "opposite"

meaning, if anything would be a "god" to the Order-minded KCNR, it'd be the OD< and perhaps they are "godless" b/c she's been lost.

in which case, the KCNR could either have been subverted (and the CG's known to a be a master of that), or, equally likely, the KCNR are defying all the expectation's anyone's ever had of them (wouldn't be a first here) and just decided to dabble with Chaos themselves, since that's the absolutely LAST thing their enemies would expect of them.

and, ofc, it's possible their "hivemind" collective conscious got screwed up in the process of intgerfacing with chaos, which is why they've become a bunch of crazy killer drones, hellbent on revenge.

[Urb]

HoosierDaddy, on 20 October 2009 - 06:09 PM, said:

Yes, I'm going there.

The Nah'ruk appear towards the beginning of The Bonehunters, while the Jade Statues (which supposedly destroyed the moon) didn't arrive in the sky until far later in the book.

And the Nah'ruk had to wait as long as possible before the impact because they really should be there to see it coming? Surely any technologically advanced civilization would be watching the sky and hauling ass the second they realized their home was about to be destroyed.

HoosierDaddy, on 20 October 2009 - 07:30 PM, said:

Edit: I'm just not buying the Nah'ruk being on the Moon.

Then why is SE spending so much time and effort building it into the story? The only other entity that has been linked to the moon (as far as I can remember) was the Crippled God (Grylen?) and his Gardens of the Moon. Now seeing as how he's been chained to Burn for quite some time, and there (definitely?) was something up there, what makes the Nah'ruk less likely than anything else?

the Bonehunters said:

And on the Moon, gardens died.

-Urb, would hate it if that was just a metaphor. Wild theories being true is much more fun.

[Mentalist]

I've always thought it was a metaphor, b/c it was sorta timed with Apsalar finding out Cutter's MIA, and then her not going to look for him, but working for ST instead.

also, another thing that's being brought up in defence of the "Moon is inhabitable" theory is the whole "Moon falling apart" thing in TTH.

now that I think about--could that have POSSIBLY had somehting to do with Mappo being "prepared" in the Temple of Burn and the preparations getting mixed up with the spider tattoos he got when Mogora did the Ardata-heal on him in tBH? recall, that when that happened, freaky shit was also happening to the moon.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Or Father Light's return..

[blackzoid]

Whoh, ok...., lets all back up here!

There is absolutely NO proof that the KCNR were EVER on the Moon before it broke up. None.

Its a theory with absolutely no facts to back it up. All we know is that there were gardens on the moon, and the moon was destroyed. We have nothing indicating that the KCNR ever lived there. So lets not try and twist every other KCNR theory around that one. The other theories have some facts, the moon one has none (even if it is a nice theory) It goes to the bottom of the pile because of its complete lack of evidence.

In fact, Shand's words with Ben would imply to me that the KCNR were in the warren of Chaos all this time. What better place to hide than in a place your enemies don't expect to look?
I'm also very interested in the question of how Ben suddenly knows so much about the KCNR. He didn't in TBH or MOI.

[beru]

or did he?


i think QB knows ALOT more than he lets out... yes that alot much more than he lets out

...

[Theotendo]

Quick has always shown a penchant for dabbling in the forces of chaos. Warren manipulation, travelling the chaotic paths between the warrens, even his soulshifting trick (while not directly chaos aspected) was closely linked to chaos. In GotM during his conversation with Hairlock on the Spar of Andii he shows uncanny familiarity with the warren.

Mappo, while travelling through the grounded skykeep with Icarium in HoC (I think?) mentions that in the KCCM there existed an inner struggle between order and chaos. Which was more prevailent? Would his studies of the warren of chaos have led QB to further knowledge of the KCCM?
What were the KCNR doing in chaos? How about chasing down the last Rooted? Following a trail that eventually led them to the Wastelands. What better place to try and lose the Nah'ruk than in chaos? Or stall them long enough for the Matron to breed her super army and begin to restructure the way the KCCM live?

[champ]

I dont think anyones mentioned it but the name of the sky keep we know once belonged to the Nah'ruk... Moon's Spawn! Could this be a not so subtle hint?

[blackzoid]

We don't know if the Andii named the sky keep or the KCNR.
Or the humans who saw the thing while under Rake's control.

Lets not forget that the Moon was tied more into the Father Light storyline then the KCNR anyway.
1: Edur myths claim that Father Light was imprisioned in the moon.
2: Father Light created gardens for Mother Dark (which died off, see Silchas Ruins comments in RG)
3: There were gardens on the Moon, which died.
--->Ergo Father Light created the Gardens on the moon!


Creatures which whorshipped machines don't seem to me, the Garden-tending type!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 21 October 2009 - 05:28 PM

[Powder]

blackzoid, on 21 October 2009 - 05:27 PM, said:

We don't know if the Andii named the sky keep or the KCNR.
Or the humans who saw the thing while under Rake's control.

Lets not forget that the Moon was tied more into the Father Light storyline then the KCNR anyway.
1: Edur myths claim that Father Light was imprisioned in the moon.
2: Father Light created gardens for Mother Dark (which died off, see Silchas Ruins comments in RG)
3: There were gardens on the Moon, which died.
--->Ergo Father Light created the Gardens on the moon!


Creatures which whorshipped machines don't seem to me, the Garden-tending type!

A few points.
1. Father light and the rest of the TL are insane lovers of justice, and fans of order.
2. They are not against allying with other ancient races, i.e. travalling around with the FA.
3. The KCNR are an ancient race with a penchant towards order, which have presumably been driven from WU.
4. It is atleast plausable that they were spending time on the moon with father light, essentially being imprisoned with him.
5. The moon is brekaing apart so they can finally escape its prisonness, and so they start back towards WU intent on destroying the last of their ancient oppressors.
6. The gardens on the moon were actually mechanical gardens. (ok that last one is a bit more of a stretch than the rest.)

But in all seriousness, why now? Sadly most arguments must come from silence because while we have a bit of foreshadowing from previous books, relatively little is known about the KCNR. Maybe we could try to piece together a series of events concerning the KCNR but i have a feeling that until TCG we will not be able to resolve much else. So does anyone with some serious quotefu skills want to piece together what the KCNR have done so far?

Powder

[Abyss]

The 'why now' part is easy...
Speculating, of course... The KN fled the world post MT prologue and related events, and took up residence on the moon and were content to stay there and breed themselves into a hive-minded complacent mess. Moon shatters so they move their entire civilization into the Imperial Warren and prepare for war to take over the world as their new home. They start, logically, with their oldest enemy, the KC. That the Malazans were between the two Kchain was either bad luck or manipulation by 'someone'.

Ignore the entire moon thing and the entire conquer the world thing and you have, one way or the other, an invasion force that was always going to come over and start with the KC.

'Why now' is kind of a pointless question... if it happened some other time and the Malazans weren't around and the KC were extinct and Icarium was sitting on a beach somewhere sipping a cocktail with a little umbrella in it, and the KN just stood around looking at the sand it would have been kind of dull. It's like asking why TtH had to play out in a massive convergence in Darujhistan... it would have been somewhat uninteresting for Hood and Rake to just kick back on a rock somewhere and give each other paper cuts with Dragnipur.

-Abyss, right now.

[Mentalist]

Powder, on 22 October 2009 - 05:30 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 21 October 2009 - 05:27 PM, said:

We don't know if the Andii named the sky keep or the KCNR.
Or the humans who saw the thing while under Rake's control.

Lets not forget that the Moon was tied more into the Father Light storyline then the KCNR anyway.
1: Edur myths claim that Father Light was imprisioned in the moon.
2: Father Light created gardens for Mother Dark (which died off, see Silchas Ruins comments in RG)
3: There were gardens on the Moon, which died.
--->Ergo Father Light created the Gardens on the moon!


Creatures which whorshipped machines don't seem to me, the Garden-tending type!

A few points.
1. Father light and the rest of the TL are insane lovers of justice, and fans of order.
2. They are not against allying with other ancient races, i.e. travalling around with the FA.
3. The KCNR are an ancient race with a penchant towards order, which have presumably been driven from WU.
4. It is atleast plausable that they were spending time on the moon with father light, essentially being imprisoned with him.
5. The moon is brekaing apart so they can finally escape its prisonness, and so they start back towards WU intent on destroying the last of their ancient oppressors.
6. The gardens on the moon were actually mechanical gardens. (ok that last one is a bit more of a stretch than the rest.)

But in all seriousness, why now? Sadly most arguments must come from silence because while we have a bit of foreshadowing from previous books, relatively little is known about the KCNR. Maybe we could try to piece together a series of events concerning the KCNR but i have a feeling that until TCG we will not be able to resolve much else. So does anyone with some serious quotefu skills want to piece together what the KCNR have done so far?

Powder

on top of that, The Edur legends are not to be trusted (Bloodeye was betrayed by Ruin, gasp!), and i think they weren't talking about the FL, but about "Father Shadow's brother" iirc

[Powder]

I realize the inherrent downside to the 'why now' question. It just seems kinda gay if they pop out of a portal RIGHT THEN when they could have come out at any point in the last 100,000 years. It would seem to me that there NEEDS to be some precipitous event to cause them to attack now instead of then. Otherwise it would fall into the realm of Kallor popping out of a warren and slaying ereko, all be it a rediculously awesome way for that to happen as opposed to that anti-climactic point... I am just looking for the proximate cause of the KCNR invasion of the wastelands.... Lets try another theory out... could draconus' return have anything to do with it? He seems to be somewhat lizzardlike in his descriptions something about scales or some such...(none handy tho) maybe he has some relation to KCNR?

-Powder

PS thanks for all the feedback so far seems like this is really getting somewhere!

[Sinisdar Toste]

if you wanna search for alternative esplanations, look to the skykeep buried in the earth in tBH. the nah'ruk return there to kill ganath after her ritual is sundered and presumably to unearth their skykeep once more. how long would a thing like that take? could be until DoD

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 21 October 2009 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'm also very interested in the question of how Ben suddenly knows so much about the KCNR. He didn't in TBH or MOI.

Crazy theory time: The souls within QB haven't merged into one - like Icarium wandering, except controlled. I speculate that they freely wander wherever they want to and periodically report back to the body to share info. Perhaps the pebbles QB uses provides a focus for one of the souls.

Perhaps he left a pebble on a skykeep during the excursion with Kalam, Stormy and Gesler. Perhaps one of his souls wandered around the keep ever since then - years worth of information by now...

[Mentalist]

Powder, on 23 October 2009 - 12:44 AM, said:

I realize the inherrent downside to the 'why now' question. It just seems kinda gay if they pop out of a portal RIGHT THEN when they could have come out at any point in the last 100,000 years. It would seem to me that there NEEDS to be some precipitous event to cause them to attack now instead of then. Otherwise it would fall into the realm of Kallor popping out of a warren and slaying ereko, all be it a rediculously awesome way for that to happen as opposed to that anti-climactic point... I am just looking for the proximate cause of the KCNR invasion of the wastelands.... Lets try another theory out... could draconus' return have anything to do with it? He seems to be somewhat lizzardlike in his descriptions something about scales or some such...(none handy tho) maybe he has some relation to KCNR?

-Powder



PS thanks for all the feedback so far seems like this is really getting somewhere!

I doubt Draconus got any connection to the K'Chains. they come from Tiam (the firstborn of Dragons), whilst he was Mommy D's "consort"

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 23 October 2009 - 02:16 PM