[Tennes]

wow, forgot to refresh over half an hour. @Kasch I haven't looked too closely at Atrahal. I'm still wiping the sleep out of my eyes from my long nights and frequent naps. I'll go check it out.

[Ampelas]

OK, back for a lot less time than I'd like.

 Kaschan, on 13 October 2009 - 05:16 PM, said:

Aftercatching up I find myself siding with Korv more than with Tennes. Fromwhat i've seen its a bunch of Gut feelings, a possibly scummy post. and2 Hammer votes. Actually now that I type that out.....thats anaweful lot of coincidences adding up.

Really? Not that many coincidences, surely? I mean, it's coincidental that I hammered twice, if you like, but you can also put that down to the fact that my posting times fall in such a manner that for the past two days I've been getting on towards the end of the day. The possible scummy post I'll admit was not the cleverest thing to say...and I can't really do much about gut feelings.

Atrahal's reveal was dodgy in so many ways, as listed by someone else whose name I can't be bothered to check. I know I went through a phase where every time a scum made a botched reveal I'd think to myself: "No way would a scum be so careless when planning a reveal, must be genuine." and end off letting them off the hook, so I don't do that any more.

Vote Atrahal

(There is, of course, an element of self-preservation involved, but I feel my reasons for voting are such that I probably would have voted this way anyway)

[Thyrllan]

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 11:37 AM, said:

Unfortunately the time I have to defend myself is limited today. I'm here and gone now, but will try and get back on in about 5 hours for a bit longer than this. Just thought I'd mention one post that caught my suspicious eye on catchup:

 Karosis, on 13 October 2009 - 11:01 AM, said:

its not really the cases that have me voting. Not exactly sure why, but when i have been picking my suspects and sending them to spoilers amp has been there the whole game. Not 100% sure why, and i know its not a case, but i trust my gut. I am not a finder, if i was and had a scum find i would reveal. I just dont trust amp from some of the interactions he had and his voting.

That phrase just seems unnecessary here. He could just has easily have said: "Amp has been among my suspects for scum all game". As an inno you don't need to say that you're sending your suspicions to PS, but if you're scum pretending to be inno, you might feel the need to say it in an attempt to reinforce the image of a conscientious inno to the other players. I don't like that at all.


Also, I'd like to hear why Tennes jumped on the case on Korlat so quickly and why he then felt the need to backpedal so much on Day 2, seeing as I notice Tennes is around and haven't seen a defence of that yet. I'll refrain on putting a vote down until I get back later though - got a few things I want to look over first when I have the time.

All right. I'm going to go with my gut here. Ampelas seems on the risk of being lynched and this is the defence he throws up? I think not. He doesn't at all respond to the accusations directed against him. Atrahal at least have the excuse of not having been online since Korvalain started picking apart his claims.

Trying to pretend there's no case is often much more efficient than actually responding to it, yet only scum truly benefit from having something just hanging in the air like that. Ampelas unwillingness to commit to the discussion seems more scummy to me than anything Atrahal did at this point.

Vote Ampelas

[Thyrllan]

cross post with ampelas..

remove vote while I read it properly.

[Thyrllan]

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

[Ampelas]

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:10 PM, said:

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 11:37 AM, said:

Unfortunately the time I have to defend myself is limited today. I'm here and gone now, but will try and get back on in about 5 hours for a bit longer than this. Just thought I'd mention one post that caught my suspicious eye on catchup:

 Karosis, on 13 October 2009 - 11:01 AM, said:

its not really the cases that have me voting. Not exactly sure why, but when i have been picking my suspects and sending them to spoilers amp has been there the whole game. Not 100% sure why, and i know its not a case, but i trust my gut. I am not a finder, if i was and had a scum find i would reveal. I just dont trust amp from some of the interactions he had and his voting.

That phrase just seems unnecessary here. He could just has easily have said: "Amp has been among my suspects for scum all game". As an inno you don't need to say that you're sending your suspicions to PS, but if you're scum pretending to be inno, you might feel the need to say it in an attempt to reinforce the image of a conscientious inno to the other players. I don't like that at all.


Also, I'd like to hear why Tennes jumped on the case on Korlat so quickly and why he then felt the need to backpedal so much on Day 2, seeing as I notice Tennes is around and haven't seen a defence of that yet. I'll refrain on putting a vote down until I get back later though - got a few things I want to look over first when I have the time.

All right. I'm going to go with my gut here. Ampelas seems on the risk of being lynched and this is the defence he throws up? I think not. He doesn't at all respond to the accusations directed against him. Atrahal at least have the excuse of not having been online since Korvalain started picking apart his claims.

Trying to pretend there's no case is often much more efficient than actually responding to it, yet only scum truly benefit from having something just hanging in the air like that. Ampelas unwillingness to commit to the discussion seems more scummy to me than anything Atrahal did at this point.

Vote Ampelas

I didn't really have time to do much defending then (and I still don't have much time to do defending now). Figured I'd point that one out before I forgot - you never know, someone might have found it useful.


There really isn't much strength to the case on me beyond the fact that I hammered twice, as far as I can tell (do correct me if I'm wrong), so it's not like I have much I can say to defend myself, really.

[Kaschan]

@ Tellan Sorry man, i read this post earlier and thought you voted first. My mistake.

 Tennes, on 13 October 2009 - 11:37 AM, said:

No, I went all the way back and found what passed for a case on Amp. Then I reread him all the way to today, and the only thing that struck me was this:

 Ampelas, on 09 October 2009 - 11:03 PM, said:

 Atrahal, on 09 October 2009 - 10:46 PM, said:

 Kalse, on 09 October 2009 - 10:43 PM, said:

I think I must have fallen asleep writing that post, I crossed with quite a bit of mod interaction!

I just logged on and then had to double check to make sure that I didn't stumble into SH on accident.

What is the case on Ampelas?

I made a joke that people seem to think implies scum interaction. Oh, and for being a nice person, apparently. No room for those in Mafia, it seems .

Got to say though, whenever I've had the chance to play scum, I've been mortally afraid of over-interacting early. Doesn't really come naturally - I don't really have the stomach to play by the seat of my pants like that.

Now that last sentence rings HUUUGE scum bells in my head. I mean, come on. He doesn't play that way as scum, so he must be inno, but most of us don't know who he actually is so he could totally be feeding us a line. I mean, its the least trustworthy and frankly scummy thing he could've said, imo. And aside from this, I just don't get a vibe from him. At all. Normally I get a feeling about inno or scumminess, and whether its wrong or not I feel something. Amp is just...a dragon. I don't know if that earns a vote or not. I'll have to consider this.

[Alkend]

I'm voting you on the basis that you sound awkward. Your behavior in the game was significantly different after Day 1. You had some votes on Day 1 and they kind of got swept under the rug.

And now we're in the same position as yesterday, relatively split on the vote... just like yesterday with Tennes. Tennes has a borderline-reveal so once again we have to look at the data in front of us and ask why this isn't really going forward... is it because Ampelas is scum? Is it because Atrahal is scum? Is it because scum are waffling a lot between the votes?

Maybe someone can look back in the thread and compile a list of vote tallies for the end of each day. I know I've been in the majority each time but I want to see who else has because I would bet you're going to find some scum in the list.

[Ampelas]

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

I'm slightly confused by the fact that they seem to be implying similar roles. But their information does add up, as far as I can tell, so I think we can be reasonably confident that the information is genuine in one way or another. It does throw the pair of them into scum crosshairs...but I can accept the reasoning that it's better for the group to have the information than to languish in ignorance. Plus, the Klingons are only killing every other night, it seems, (caveat: could still be a healer, BPs or something like that) which reduces the risks to themselves quite considerably. I'm pretty certain at least one of them is genuine, if not both.

[Ampelas]

 Alkend, on 13 October 2009 - 06:20 PM, said:

I'm voting you on the basis that you sound awkward. Your behavior in the game was significantly different after Day 1. You had some votes on Day 1 and they kind of got swept under the rug.

And now we're in the same position as yesterday, relatively split on the vote... just like yesterday with Tennes. Tennes has a borderline-reveal so once again we have to look at the data in front of us and ask why this isn't really going forward... is it because Ampelas is scum? Is it because Atrahal is scum? Is it because scum are waffling a lot between the votes?

Maybe someone can look back in the thread and compile a list of vote tallies for the end of each day. I know I've been in the majority each time but I want to see who else has because I would bet you're going to find some scum in the list.

Isn't it the case that behaviour usually changes after Day 1? At the beginning noone was trying to get the game going, so I thought I'd do that myself. Once that was accomplished, I didn't need to do it as much. But you'll note that I'm still trying to point out things that seem suspicious to me (see the post quoted by Thyrllan just above)...I don't think my behaviour has changed that radically, has it?

[Ampelas]

And now I'm off again. Will be back in about 3 hours, give or take.

[Thyrllan]

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

I'm slightly confused by the fact that they seem to be implying similar roles. But their information does add up, as far as I can tell, so I think we can be reasonably confident that the information is genuine in one way or another. It does throw the pair of them into scum crosshairs...but I can accept the reasoning that it's better for the group to have the information than to languish in ignorance. Plus, the Klingons are only killing every other night, it seems, (caveat: could still be a healer, BPs or something like that) which reduces the risks to themselves quite considerably. I'm pretty certain at least one of them is genuine, if not both.

So maybe...

Well, I've got confirmation at least of some things, unless you willfully lie about some things but that seems rather doubtful. No, this post rather makes me less worried about you being innocent. The case against you was not really being the hammer but rather being very very agreeable with pretty much anyone. It's making my gut twitch, and with this post, well I am quite confident that you're scum now.

vote Ampelas

This is not saying Atrahal isn't scum. His reveal seems pretty thin, but I am pretty certain that Ampelas is scum whereas for atrahal I can only say he most likely lied about his reveal. Furthermore, Atrahal seemed to gain votes only following the pressure on Ampelas which is telling.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4
3 hours and 58 munutes left

12 players still alive
Alkend, Ampelas, Atrahal, Karosis,Kaschan, Korbas, Korvalain,Thyrlann, Telas, Tellan, Tennes, Tulas Shorn,
7 votes to lynch or 6 to go to night


4 votes for Ampelas (Alkend, Atrahal, Karosis, Thyrlann)
3 votes Atrahal (Korvalain, Kaschan, Ampelas)

Players still to vote

Korbas, , Telas, Tellan, Tennes, Tulas Shorn

[Alkend]

OK well here's my next question then, and I'll start with a statement...

Atrahal is kind of a bonehead. His reveal was bad and poorly timed and seems riddled with potential get-around-the-rules holes.

But does anyone actually think he's going to CF scum? If he's inno, he basically put a target on his back that said, "Kill me" last night and the scum clearly didn't see it or are trying to use the crap reveal to get him to take a fall for it.

Alternatively, if he's scum, he put a target on his FRONT if he doesn't die tonight, although now that we're getting these silly borderline reveals, Atrahal has a much better chance of getting away with it if he really did make that gamble because someone like Tennes or Karosis seems more likely to get offed. But the only scenario that would have made sense would have been if Tennes AND Atrahal are both scum and engineered some back-to-back fake reveals... but if none of them die tonight, then it seems like a simple set of lynches to take them out.

Point is, the Atrahal-is-scum tactic just doesn't add up to me. If he's scum, why make a wave when he wasn't even on any radar?

But I'll vote him if it means lynch or no lynch.

[Korvalain]

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

I'm slightly confused by the fact that they seem to be implying similar roles. But their information does add up, as far as I can tell, so I think we can be reasonably confident that the information is genuine in one way or another. It does throw the pair of them into scum crosshairs...but I can accept the reasoning that it's better for the group to have the information than to languish in ignorance. Plus, the Klingons are only killing every other night, it seems, (caveat: could still be a healer, BPs or something like that) which reduces the risks to themselves quite considerably. I'm pretty certain at least one of them is genuine, if not both.

So maybe...

Well, I've got confirmation at least of some things, unless you willfully lie about some things but that seems rather doubtful. No, this post rather makes me less worried about you being innocent. The case against you was not really being the hammer but rather being very very agreeable with pretty much anyone. It's making my gut twitch, and with this post, well I am quite confident that you're scum now.

vote Ampelas

This is not saying Atrahal isn't scum. His reveal seems pretty thin, but I am pretty certain that Ampelas is scum whereas for atrahal I can only say he most likely lied about his reveal. Furthermore, Atrahal seemed to gain votes only following the pressure on Ampelas which is telling.

While I am not going to question your gut and think you could well be right, the fact is also that I only came online when there were already a few votes (Alkend, Atrahal and Karosis) on Ampelas, so the pressure was already on
No matter which lynch goes through, I think we'll have a significantly different train from the previous two, which can only be good.

[Alkend]

If we're going to have two players modkilled that is going to really suck if we lynch wrong again, too... unless they are scum...

and it may make it that much harder to get a lynch since they basically mean we need one more vote than without them.

[Thyrllan]

 Korvalain, on 13 October 2009 - 06:37 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

I'm slightly confused by the fact that they seem to be implying similar roles. But their information does add up, as far as I can tell, so I think we can be reasonably confident that the information is genuine in one way or another. It does throw the pair of them into scum crosshairs...but I can accept the reasoning that it's better for the group to have the information than to languish in ignorance. Plus, the Klingons are only killing every other night, it seems, (caveat: could still be a healer, BPs or something like that) which reduces the risks to themselves quite considerably. I'm pretty certain at least one of them is genuine, if not both.

So maybe...

Well, I've got confirmation at least of some things, unless you willfully lie about some things but that seems rather doubtful. No, this post rather makes me less worried about you being innocent. The case against you was not really being the hammer but rather being very very agreeable with pretty much anyone. It's making my gut twitch, and with this post, well I am quite confident that you're scum now.

vote Ampelas

This is not saying Atrahal isn't scum. His reveal seems pretty thin, but I am pretty certain that Ampelas is scum whereas for atrahal I can only say he most likely lied about his reveal. Furthermore, Atrahal seemed to gain votes only following the pressure on Ampelas which is telling.

While I am not going to question your gut and think you could well be right, the fact is also that I only came online when there were already a few votes (Alkend, Atrahal and Karosis) on Ampelas, so the pressure was already on
No matter which lynch goes through, I think we'll have a significantly different train from the previous two, which can only be good.

that's my point. Atrahal only became a popular lynch option after Ameplas started getting votes.

[Korvalain]

 Alkend, on 13 October 2009 - 06:34 PM, said:

OK well here's my next question then, and I'll start with a statement...

Atrahal is kind of a bonehead. His reveal was bad and poorly timed and seems riddled with potential get-around-the-rules holes.

But does anyone actually think he's going to CF scum? If he's inno, he basically put a target on his back that said, "Kill me" last night and the scum clearly didn't see it or are trying to use the crap reveal to get him to take a fall for it.

Alternatively, if he's scum, he put a target on his FRONT if he doesn't die tonight, although now that we're getting these silly borderline reveals, Atrahal has a much better chance of getting away with it if he really did make that gamble because someone like Tennes or Karosis seems more likely to get offed. But the only scenario that would have made sense would have been if Tennes AND Atrahal are both scum and engineered some back-to-back fake reveals... but if none of them die tonight, then it seems like a simple set of lynches to take them out.

Point is, the Atrahal-is-scum tactic just doesn't add up to me. If he's scum, why make a wave when he wasn't even on any radar?

But I'll vote him if it means lynch or no lynch.

Good question, but as I tried to point out and as Thyrllan agrees, there are so many inconsistencies that he probably lied. I think you'll agree with me that innos just should not lie - it makes them scummy.

[Alkend]

If nobody changes votes, we need all 3 of the non-modkillable people to show up and vote Ampelas to get a lynch. Atrahal cannot be lynched without at least one switch.

[Korvalain]

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:40 PM, said:

 Korvalain, on 13 October 2009 - 06:37 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

 Ampelas, on 13 October 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

 Thyrllan, on 13 October 2009 - 06:14 PM, said:

@Ampelas - what are your thoughts in regards to the information brought forth by Karosis and Tennes?

I'm slightly confused by the fact that they seem to be implying similar roles. But their information does add up, as far as I can tell, so I think we can be reasonably confident that the information is genuine in one way or another. It does throw the pair of them into scum crosshairs...but I can accept the reasoning that it's better for the group to have the information than to languish in ignorance. Plus, the Klingons are only killing every other night, it seems, (caveat: could still be a healer, BPs or something like that) which reduces the risks to themselves quite considerably. I'm pretty certain at least one of them is genuine, if not both.

So maybe...

Well, I've got confirmation at least of some things, unless you willfully lie about some things but that seems rather doubtful. No, this post rather makes me less worried about you being innocent. The case against you was not really being the hammer but rather being very very agreeable with pretty much anyone. It's making my gut twitch, and with this post, well I am quite confident that you're scum now.

vote Ampelas

This is not saying Atrahal isn't scum. His reveal seems pretty thin, but I am pretty certain that Ampelas is scum whereas for atrahal I can only say he most likely lied about his reveal. Furthermore, Atrahal seemed to gain votes only following the pressure on Ampelas which is telling.

While I am not going to question your gut and think you could well be right, the fact is also that I only came online when there were already a few votes (Alkend, Atrahal and Karosis) on Ampelas, so the pressure was already on
No matter which lynch goes through, I think we'll have a significantly different train from the previous two, which can only be good.

that's my point. Atrahal only became a popular lynch option after Ameplas started getting votes.

Sooooo, only one case a day is what you propose? Or only one train? That's like putting blinders on. Moreover, Atrahal's vote is suspect as, as I pointed out, his reveal was full of weird stuff. You could count that one as a diversion.

EDIT: also, basically you are saying that whoever comes first with the case should be served. Awesome.

This post has been edited by Korvalain: 13 October 2009 - 06:44 PM