[Karosis]

Kalse, on 12 October 2009 - 07:20 AM, said:

I have no time now as to go to work but I will be back before day times out. A few things I will say is that the post I wrote when voting Amp was when I was almost asleep and so not expressed very well, and it's because I am inno that I was being very relaxed when I was posting and if you lynch me you are only helping team scum.

cross post, as i was reading the previous page when made my vote. I may of withheld my vote if not for that last underlined bit. This isnt a defence, its just a very weak tease and more inclined to incite a vote that remove one as speaking for myself, i feel obliged to say "oh really?" I understand you dont have time at the moment, but that response to me, isnt good enough.

[Korvalain]

It's sad to see that we are still hanging on discussions of the OP. Thankfully, we are finally getting to proper behaviour and posting analysis.

I do have one remark concerning the sabotage mechanic as it was on modcraft: what is holding GK back from changing that for this game as well? Nothing at all. It's logical the way it was and it can still effect players rather than the 'ship' as an external entity like Obdi did in the oxygen game, but that does not imply that it can't be changed.

I'm going to go with Thyrllan on this one, and vote Kalse. That is caused in a large part by Alkend's unwillingness to pull the game forward with the info he apparently has.

with that I am referring to this:

Quote

Maybe it's because it's not spycraft. Maybe it's because the limited time I've had with it so far has been a bevy and spam and useless discussion. Or maybe it's just because I think I see things that nobody else ever sees.

So I'm just kind of "playing" the game, but I'm not really being super helpful. That's totally my bad, or whatever, but that's why I'm glad Korlat got lynched. Because it moved the game forward.

rather than this:

Quote

2- I picked up something in one of Korlat's posts that led me to believe he was innocent. I did not defend him because I saw him reading the thread but after I logged off he failed to respond.
However, I will not reveal it because I technically feel that it was going against some rules. Specifically stuff from the role pms. Sort of a hey, this was in my pm and if you recognize it then you must be on my team. I don't want to play the game like that, it has happened in other games and it ruins it.

Also, this by Kalse sets all alarmbells ringing, mainly because of the lazy game we've had so far:

Quote

I have no time now as to go to work but I will be back before day times out. A few things I will say is that the post I wrote when voting Amp was when I was almost asleep and so not expressed very well, and it's because I am inno that I was being very relaxed when I was posting and if you lynch me you are only helping team scum.

So, what piques me?

1- He will be back before deadline but will not say when.
That could be stalling the train, 'cause of course he deserves a chance at defending himself. Name a time, mate, when do you get off work?
2- Being relaxed because you are inno? What kind of mindset is that? 'I can screw up because I'm not scum?' Yeah, I can feel you're a teamplayer who's trying to win the game...
3- 'you are only helping team scum'. Ooooooh, the age old threat of 'go ahead, lynch me, you will only slit your own throat', which contains 0 evidence that you are inno and is just a lazy defense. I swear, from now on, I'm going to vote people who use this waste of reading time.

Why? Well, keeping a lazy bum around who is very relaxed and convinced we should forgive bad phrasing and a laid-back attitude to playing the game is not exactly aiding team inno either, now is it? Besides, how else are we going to find scum except through case making and searching slips? Do you expect us to swallow your excuse hook, line and sinker, but have us put more pressure on others when you see a slip? Fuck that, double standards should never apply in mafia.

Vote Kalse.

[Tulas Shorn]

Ok, I've actually gone back and read through things, looking at Kalse's posts in context. And in the end, I'm not sure I really see what Thyr described in his case. I don't get a "waffling scum" picture, and the way Kalse voted at the end of day 2 (for Korlat, letting it slide and then coming on later to try to ensure a lynch) makes him look more innocent.

Remove Vote

[Korvalain]

One post in 2.5 hours... where has the once-hyper-active euro scene gone to? I blame JA for leaving us.

[Path-Shaper]

Well I'm modding also and I can have a silly post count lol

[Tulas Shorn]

Well, we also lynched the top poster. We need to stop doing that.

[Path-Shaper]

Well I would point out the time I was the second highest you lynched and it turns out I was scum for once lol

[Tulas Shorn]

Korv, can you explain why your points # 1 and 2 are worth a vote?

#3 is a stupid thing to say, but it can still be said by anybody, scum or inno.

[Ampelas]

OK, time to look at the info we lynched Korlat to get. After Tulas Shorn's case, here are the votes cast:

Tennes, on 11 October 2009 - 02:05 AM, said:

Oh wow. Nice. That's actually really good, I'm gonna go with that.

vote Korlat

My analysis: Very suspicious. There is no way you can call this case really good given that it relies completely on Day 1 spam type posts. Admittedly, it was at this point hard to construct a case out of anything else, but I don't see anything in TS's case to warrant this kind of praise.

Alkend, on 11 October 2009 - 02:12 AM, said:

I AM A SHEEP.

Vote Korlat

Iwould rather vote Ampelas simply because Thyrllan opened up today withmore QQ-style posting. Speed lynches are definitely bad in most cases,but isn't anyone else at least somewhat concerned with how Ampelasdidn't manage to pick up any votes from the last group people whoshowed up in the day?

My analysis: Somewhat suspicious. Why wouldn't he vote for me again? There was plenty of time left in the day for him to do so, and noone is going to follow him on it if he doesn't put a vote down. Having said that, I have a hard time seeing scum admit that they are sheep like that...

Karosis, on 11 October 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

<snip hidden mechanic discussion>

vote korlat

ididnt like telas response, and if you knew each other and which totalk of things unrelated to a game of mafia then why do it on threadwhen others can only judge what is written in context of the game?

My analysis: Somewhat suspicious. It's not the best reason given that what they were talking about was tangentially related to the game, and there are strict rules about talking about the game outside of the thread. Feels a little like trying he was trying to come up with some outwardly plausible reason to justify his vote.

Korvalain, on 11 October 2009 - 09:47 AM, said:

Vote Korlat.

I'dsay it is a flimsy case, based entirely on day 1 babbling, but it's thebest we have - also, as a more personal motivation, when in my openingspam I went around parading a whole list of Trek baddies to posture assymp looking for my masters, Korlat was the only one to react, asidefrom Kaschan, which was more omgus in nature.

My analysis: Not especially suspicious. Admits the case is flimsy, which is a good sign in my book. With 4 votes on already, gives a weak-ish extra reason for voting.

Anthras, on 11 October 2009 - 11:18 AM, said:

Well I had no reason to vote for that horrible case. But what Karosis added gives it some validity

Vote Korlat

Anthras is dead, so I guess I don't need to analyse this one...

Kalse, on 11 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

Interestingcase, and Telas could easily have allayed suspicion by voting forKorlat. I don't want to take him to L-1 though without him having achance to defend himself (Korlat that is). I know he has been on, butit looked as if it was a flying visit. I am around until day timesout, so will vote by then rather than have another lynchless day.

Kalse, on 11 October 2009 - 02:13 PM, said:

Not a great deal of time left so

Vote Korlat

as per my earlier post.

My analysis: A little suspicious. Wanting to get a defence from Korlat is reasonable, but I don't like the reasoning that Telas could just have voted Korlat to allay suspicion. If Telas had done that, then he would have been forced by the other players to keep his vote on until the lynch, since otherwise they'll just yell "SYMP!" And that means it would have to be Korlat that was lynched, really. Having said that, Kalse has already shown that he thinks the answer to all symp accusations is for the symp to vote for the sympee...

Ampelas, on 11 October 2009 - 02:57 PM, said:

Computer is being a little more friendly today, I might actually be able to squeeze a few posts out .

Firstthings first, I don't really like the case on Korlat all that much -it's based entirely on spam posts, which I find to be pretty unreliable- there's always going to be one or two players who you interact withthe most because of timezones, similar tendencies in spam, etc.

Havingsaid that, I think knowing the alignment of Korlat at this juncturewould allow us to glean some useful info from the train. As I saidyesterday, I like lynches when they aren't last minute pileups. Thisone has happened quickly, but not because of time pressure as far as Ican see.

Vote Korlat



It would be nice ifhe's scum, though that's really wishful thinking - there isn't much inmy mind to elevate him as a more likely suspect to be a Klingon thanany of the other players. But I guess we'll see.

My analysis: Well, it's hard to do yourself. But by my own criteria, I don't big up the case as being in anyway good, and with the amount of time left I feel my reasons were justified. Feel free to disagree if you want.

[Ampelas]

I need to have a look at the Kalse case before I drop a vote. At the moment though, I'd be putting it down on Tennes...

[Karosis]

Ampelas, on 12 October 2009 - 11:51 AM, said:

Karosis, on 11 October 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

<snip hidden mechanic discussion>

vote korlat

ididnt like telas response, and if you knew each other and which totalk of things unrelated to a game of mafia then why do it on threadwhen others can only judge what is written in context of the game?

My analysis: Somewhat suspicious. It's not the best reason given that what they were talking about was tangentially related to the game, and there are strict rules about talking about the game outside of the thread. Feels a little like trying he was trying to come up with some outwardly plausible reason to justify his vote.

you have that the wrong way round. telas claimed they were discussing non game things and i said that should be done off thread. not discuss the game off thread.

[Ampelas]

Karosis, on 12 October 2009 - 11:58 AM, said:

Ampelas, on 12 October 2009 - 11:51 AM, said:

Karosis, on 11 October 2009 - 09:35 AM, said:

<snip hidden mechanic discussion>

vote korlat

ididnt like telas response, and if you knew each other and which totalk of things unrelated to a game of mafia then why do it on threadwhen others can only judge what is written in context of the game?

My analysis: Somewhat suspicious. It's not the best reason given that what they were talking about was tangentially related to the game, and there are strict rules about talking about the game outside of the thread. Feels a little like trying he was trying to come up with some outwardly plausible reason to justify his vote.

you have that the wrong way round. telas claimed they were discussing non game things and i said that should be done off thread. not discuss the game off thread.

I don't like spam as much as anyone else, but there's no crime in responding to spam with more spam, much as I dislike it.

[Karosis]

your still missing my point. It wasnt spam, it was direct references to things from off the thread which when taken in context of the game looked suspicious. If you know who someone is and it has nothng to do with the game, then why discuss it on this thread. That would be like the two of use just spending pages and pages discussing football results or tv shows. there are places on the forum to do that, this is meant to be a mafia thread. If we are looking for signalling, this is how we normally expect to find it. Hell let me make an example, i alt guess you and know who you are and ask about your partner, intending to me the man or woman you are living with but not wanting to quantify it and suddenly your a suspect because i used the word partner? As an inno you have to make sure you dont make stupid mistakes that scum can use to form cases on you. Which is why certain lazy attitudes expressed ont hread are making this game very hard to judge.

[Ampelas]

Thyrllan's case is the sort of reasoning I like in Mafia - getting into the psychology of how scum post and try to blend in with the innos. Having said that, it doesn't really add a whole lot that I haven't alluded to myself.

I went and had a look over Tennes' posts. There really isn't much there at all - lots of Day 1 spam, and then reaction to the Korlat case. But checking some of his subsequent clarifications to his initial vote I find these:

Tennes, on 11 October 2009 - 02:12 AM, said:

Actually,just read over that again. I mean, sure you had to reread the (spam)thread to find that but when you look at it its really incrediblyobvious sympage. Now, at this point its the best we've got, so I don'tthink I'm gonna remove my vote, but isn't it possible that he's fakesymping Korlat to steer this?

Which once again seems hyperbolic - incredibly obvious sympage? Not really. My guess is that he is very aware that his initial vote looks scummy and is trying to justify it. His next two posts would seem to back up that interpretation.

Tennes, on 11 October 2009 - 02:50 AM, said:

lol, I worded that wrong. I know its possible, anything is possible. But I was just putting that forth for consideration

Tennes, on 11 October 2009 - 04:56 PM, said:

Oh, wonderful. Sorry Korlat. I still think it was the best option we had though.

I want to hear more about this sabotage mechanic. What systemsdo you think are at risk? From the OP it sounds like its the shipitself that is being sabotaged, not necessarily specific player items.How many systems do you guys think there are? What systems do you thinkmay have been damaged already?

The underlined sections are attempts at justification after the fact.

Now I am really curious as to why he felt the need to backpedal like this.
Vote Tennes

If this doesn't generate any useful discussion before deadline, then I'm perfectly happy to vote for Kalse, since I think the case has some merit.

[Ampelas]

Karosis, on 12 October 2009 - 12:15 PM, said:

your still missing my point. It wasnt spam, it was direct references to things from off the thread which when taken in context of the game looked suspicious. If you know who someone is and it has nothng to do with the game, then why discuss it on this thread. That would be like the two of use just spending pages and pages discussing football results or tv shows. there are places on the forum to do that, this is meant to be a mafia thread. If we are looking for signalling, this is how we normally expect to find it. Hell let me make an example, i alt guess you and know who you are and ask about your partner, intending to me the man or woman you are living with but not wanting to quantify it and suddenly your a suspect because i used the word partner? As an inno you have to make sure you dont make stupid mistakes that scum can use to form cases on you. Which is why certain lazy attitudes expressed ont hread are making this game very hard to judge.

See that's the thing, I look at it and don't really see it as being anything other than regular Day 1 spam, albeit unrelated to thread spam. The example you bring up is a far more extreme one - using words with connotations like 'partner' are definite no-nos. Guess I just don't really see the relevence behind it.

Anyhow, I'd better get back to work. Will be back a bit later.

[Tulas Shorn]

So accused "tunnel vision" or no, I'm going to put my suspicions back in original order. I'll be around for more discussion however.

Vote Telas

[Korvalain]

Tulas Shorn, on 12 October 2009 - 11:42 AM, said:

Korv, can you explain why your points # 1 and 2 are worth a vote?

#3 is a stupid thing to say, but it can still be said by anybody, scum or inno.

1) if they gave a time, I could decide whether or not I could be on after their defense and then decide to vote or not. Right now, I just don't know when they will be back, and yet we're also basically asked to hold our horses until Kalse has replied, which they will do some point in time, and, following regular mafia rules of courtesy, only then can we decide whether or not they are voteworthy. It's nowhere said that we will have enough time after Kalses defense to pick a different target, or not. And if we don't have the time, that means either no lynch, or a Kalse lynch on wrong premises as he is the only lynch, or a speed lynch for bad reasons. None of these is good for town.

So, let's say it's not scummy per se, but definately at odds with what is good for town.

Point 2: let's call it the RI-disease. We all know there are players, who, when opening their role PM, see RI and lose interest or start acting funny. Kalse says they were very relaxed because they are inno and that this affected their posting. Knowing from experience, I can say that this does not work one way: it also affects their reading. Town can't win without RIs paying attention and playing the game focused. You don't have to be a high poster to contribute, but you've got to pay a bit of attention rather than sit back and wait for the game to develop, or formulate in ways that will haunt you later on by attracting attention that better formulation would not have gotten in the first place.

So, basically, the points I added against Kalse is that he does not play like he's a townie who cares about finding scum and instead plays loose. Not sure that this makes him scum, actually, although the defense is also that of a scum playing too loose, but he could definately do with a severe wake-up call.

[Atrahal]

Looks like I have a bit of catching up to do.

[Korvalain]

Tulas Shorn, on 12 October 2009 - 11:42 AM, said:

Korv, can you explain why your points # 1 and 2 are worth a vote?

#3 is a stupid thing to say, but it can still be said by anybody, scum or inno.

as for number 3, it is a point no-one should make. It adds zero validity and is usually the starting and ending point of a defense that is actually not a defense at all but rather a litany of tearful sobs amidst cries for mercy and fingers pointed in accusation towards others. It does not help. Rather, posting this makes people (imagine) a whiff of scumminess, in the same way revealing unpartnered healer does.

Am I being unfair towards Kalse with all of this? Maybe. But this game is slow, and the slowness has nothing to do with utilizing the whole of the day to unearth information - but all the more with people lazing through it. Tighten the thumbscrews, is what I say

[Tulas Shorn]

@Korv

I follow what you're saying. To be honest, I think what was bugging me about the Kalse case all of a sudden was how the votes came in succession after Thyr's case, which is why I removed. Your initial post made it sound like you were using Kalse's laziness to justify your adding a fourth vote, but that could have just pushed the train in a lazy game (as you say) for others to hop on and finish it. Putting the thumb screws on is one thing, but I was afraid it would turn into a speed lynch.