[Veilside]

Ok, so we all know the timeline's a bit wonky in this series, but here's a new one.

From previous discussions, the common thought is that RotCG happens before Toll, with Dassem travelling to Genabackis once he's dealt with Skinner.

That's where it all gets confusing.

Heuk has a figure standing next to him when he's unveiled Kurald Galain, from descriptions of Draconus in DoD, I think it's pretty much safe to say that that figure is definitely Draconus. So that event would have to happen either during the middle of DoD, and at the end of Toll, certainly it'd have to occur once Draconus has freed himself from the sword.

Which means that Rake would have to have suicided before the big battle in RotCG, which means that Hood's dead before the battle.

But then Hood appears on the field, along with Dessembrae to look at Ullen, so, that must be Hood once he's reincarnated in DoD.

Am I missing anything else?

[The Dark Wanderer]

In which case I direct you to the conversation between the KCCM Destriant, Kalyth, vision with the Bridgeburners and Dujek's line imparticular (Pg 432)

Quote

Enough of that, Mallet,' snapped another horseman, one-armed, hunched with age. 'You don't belong here yet. We're waiting for the world to catch up - such are dreams and visions ...

and I'm fairly certain that Draconus' appearance is described as vision-like.

[Veilside]

Whether Draconus is "vision-like" or not, it still implies he's out of Dragnipur and active.

[The Dark Wanderer]

Um, did you read the quote?
Mallet is with the dead Bridgeburners in Hood's realm even though he " doesn't belong here yet" as in he's not yet dead, but the vision is affected by the fact he will die soon. So given Mallet (an ascended Bridgeburner) can affect visions back from his death, it seems reasonably to assume Draconus (big bad Elder God) can do similar from being released from Dragnipur.

EDIT:
Apologies for what I now realise wasn't the most friendly of posts, it's been a long day.

This post has been edited by The Dark Wanderer: 07 September 2009 - 09:02 PM

[Veilside]

I'm not really seeing how that quote's relevant to be honest, what page 432 and page 433 seem to be implying is that Hood is no longer the god of death, not what you're suggesting.


Edit: Don't worry about the post not sounding too friendly, I'm a big boy, I can take someone disagreeing with me on something in a book.

This post has been edited by Veilside: 07 September 2009 - 09:10 PM

[Set'alahd Crool]

I think he's saying that since Mallet could appear now where he hasn't actually gotten to yet then why can't Draconus do the same? Not sure I buy that, but I won't rule it out either.

[Veilside]

Set, on 07 September 2009 - 09:01 PM, said:

I think he's saying that since Mallet could appear now where he hasn't actually gotten to yet then why can't Draconus do the same? Not sure I buy that, but I won't rule it out either.

That quote is taken out of context though. Read the entire section and it certainly doesn't appear to imply what TDW seems to think it does, in my opinion anyway, I could be wrong.

Anyway, Heuk says his god is back, ie not just astral projecting from inside Dragnipur.

Here we go, quote from the trade hardback version of Return, page 584.

Quote

Fool! As I said, I am no mage, I am a mere worshipper of Night. And as the old saying goes, my blood is up. Now flee, because I am about to call upon my God for he has returned and the time is long overdue for a demonstration of his gathering presence upon this world.

And, from page 599 of Return, also the trade hardback.

Quote

He'd never seen a Tiste Andii... Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night.

The relevant information about Draconus is on page 637-638 of the DoD trade hardback.

This post has been edited by Veilside: 07 September 2009 - 09:29 PM

[blackzoid]

Veilside,

That answer is that Dragnipur was "leaking" and that Draconus appeared on the battlefield of RoTCG DURING his captivity in Dragnipur. It was indeed an astral projection.

Proof No1: (written before the release of DoD)
http://forum.malazan...showtopic=12965

Ok, after doing a re-reread of Return I now think that the central timeline issue between the books , Draconus been relesed from Dragnipur before TtH is not true.
My evidence for:
1: Nait first meets Heuk on the hill when he starts to perform his ritual.
p 595, from Naits point of view
"But it was not a true silence. Something filled it. He strained to listen: the faintest rumbling and rattle of chain? Deep reverberations such as wheels groaning in the dark? "

Nait is hearing the sounds of what is inside Dragnipur! This is (presumably) not what Dragnipur will be like after its destroyed by Brood's hammer. So I think Dragnipur is intact at this moment in time. And Draconus is still inside it.

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return.




Proof part 2: We even know when during Toll the Hounds that Draconus appears on the RoTCG battlefield
This was posted before but I can't find the thread:
TTH (hardback) p 752, Ditch's POV on the wagon
"He studied Draconus, and the man seemed to darken, blurr, become strangely indistinct. Ditch gasped, and in the next instant Draconus was once more as he had always been"
This blurring is not relevant to the climax of TtH and is not expanded on. I am taking it as the subtle bookend to the RoTCG appearance.

Taken together, the passages in the 2 books signify that Draconus was still trapped in the sword at this point in time.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 07 September 2009 - 10:17 PM

[Veilside]

I'm not entirely convinced, there's evidence both ways, although I'm more inclined to believe that you're right, and that Draconus was somehow "leaking" from Dragnipur.

Guess that might be something to ask SE at fantasycon.

[MTS]

No, I think it's fairly established that he could not have been free at that time. Heuk says "his gathering presence" on the world, which implies it's not fully gathered yet. That holds true with what we know about Dragnipur 'leaking' into the world.

As to the 'King of Night has returned' line, I don't think he means physically returned, but that he is able to extend his power into the mortal realm, and touch his worshipers. He doesn't have to be free to do that, as we have seen. What is mere physical presence to a worshiper when one has access to him through ritual such as that? It's an irrelevant detail, considering that the interaction happens with blood ritual, which is in itself impersonal in a way that warrens are not.

[The Dark Wanderer]

I still argue my point, that the appearance of Draconus in RotCG must have occurred backwards in time from the event blackzoid points out as we have definitely seen Traveller by that point in TtH and his story is a direct continuation from RotCG, so unless Traveller can time-travel (yes I know the Eres'al can, but Traveller too?) then that vision had to go back in time!

[blackzoid]

The Dark Wanderer, on 10 September 2009 - 04:42 PM, said:

I still argue my point, that the appearance of Draconus in RotCG must have occurred backwards in time from the event blackzoid points out as we have definitely seen Traveller by that point in TtH and his story is a direct continuation from RotCG, so unless Traveller can time-travel (yes I know the Eres'al can, but Traveller too?) then that vision had to go back in time!

That is true, but I guess one could make the point that there is no way of determining when the events within Dragnipur happen until Hood arrives. Before that there is a storyline with no connection to outside events. Its conceivable that the Dragnipur storyline with Ditch/Orig-Apsalar/Draconus is happening earlier then the rest of TtH's storylines.
Or perhaps Draconus went blurry a first time within Dragnipur, before TtH starts.

I'm not really happy with the Time-travelling aspect. I think that should be left to the Eres'al only.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i noticed the obvious traveller timeline flaw with that explanation, but time in different warrens moves differently, and i think thats all we can say about that. time in dragnipur just moves more slowly, perhaps as a result of the mindless repitition enforced within it.

[Skywalker]

Besides the Draconus appearance... was there anything in DoD that significantly caused timeline headaches? I remember a number of early readers/ reviewers saying something like "The Timeline is now completely sheboinged" (I paraphrase)

Personally, I didn't notice any timeline issues of Harllo's age/ Draconus' appearance levels in DoD. Although it did take a while for it to dawn on me that the Dragnipur breakage hadn't yet happened (before the start of the book).

[blackzoid]

Aside from the trivial instance that according to the post-Draconus arrival chapters in DoD, the MOON HAS NOT YET EXPLODED, no, there are no major timeline mess-ups.

The moon is described as "hazy" throughout. This is its post-Bonehunters condition. How the hell did SE forget to work its destruction into the story? I mean come on!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 September 2009 - 05:31 PM

[Urizen]

blackzoid, on 11 September 2009 - 04:49 PM, said:

The moon is described as "hazy" throughout. This is its post-Bonehunters condition. How the hell did SE forget to work its destruction into the story? I mean come on!

The "hazyiness" could come from the moon breaking apart and the pieces just has'nt had enough time to drift off.

[Epiph]

I'm pretty sure Setoc should be described as much younger. I don't remember how old her older brother was in RG, but certainly not a teenager, and she was at least a couple years younger than him. Then some months path as she lives with the wolves, and then a some more months pass as she lives with the Barghast, but not enough time for her to be even close to an age at which the what's-his-face awl would fancy her. And he does--there's some quote about "young love" from Toc's perspective at the end. Then again, maybe that's referencing Precious Thimble and the Boles.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think setoc is still very young, its been maybe a year since the end of RG, so i put her at about eleven or twelve. in the malaverse i'm sure it isn't unusual for a girl to have suitors or be married at that age, you know, get em while they're ovulatin and all that.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 11 September 2009 - 10:17 PM

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Can't be worse than Spinnock and the teenage high priestess...

[Sixty]

I thought that was Seerdomin?