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Disappointing ending fantastic until the end

#41 User is offline   Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy 

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 04:21 PM

I've finished RG a couple of months ago, with rather mixed feelings, and I totally agree with the title of this thread. To be frank, I think it's the weakest book of the series, without having finished the last three epic volumes of SE's Opus Magnum. I mean, it's still a fantastic book and lightyears better than most, if not all of the other fantasy/ sword&sorcery literature around, but....

Going back to The Bonehunters, while reading BH, I felt that there were some lengthy bits in the first half of the book; I was in a funny way annoyed with all the new soldier characters which were introduced to the Malazan Army, the Fourteenth- to me that was like a betrayal of the Bridgeburners , and I felt they could never live up to their predecessors anyways.

However, I also have to admit that from a storytechnical point of view this part is kind of genius: after all, we entered the story long after the Bridgeburners were forged in Raraku whereas in BH, we, the Readers, are given the unique opportunity to be witness to the birth of the Bonehunters, the Adjunct's army, so to speak, and it was an intense story powerfully written.

After the account of the firestorm at Y'Ghatan, I was truly impressed. I also felt that the additional storylines were really well integrated, well structured and brought to conclusion either in BH, followed up on older elements or extended the existing arcs in well balanced ways, such as Icarium and Mappo, Cutter, Scillara and Heboric etc...

The events then culminate in Malaz City in a most spectacular manner. I believe that's one of the best ends to any volume in the series. I could even forgive SE the death of Kalam, I mean, he had one hell of a run through the Mouse (and will probably turn up at some point again), and how Apsalar cut through the Claw like a scythe through ripe corn was superb, and the last stand of Tavore and T'Amber and so forth; but actually, this essay here is about RG.

In my opinion RG fails in most of the points which make BH a really great read. Of course I'm aware that a lot of elements introduced here will cast ripples into the later volumes and will be important before the end and that I have to continue reading in order to understand the importance of certain elements introduced here, such as the Awl or Rautos Hivanar.

I still think the whole book is not well as balanced as the previous books, and although the beginning of BH starts off on a par with where the story ends in BH, the end of RG sucks.

Let's start with the good things first:

The first 700 pages are really good and thrilling. Lots of action, character developments, curious incidents and so forth.

Karsa Orlong and Samar Dev's journey is fine, as well as their stay in the Arena with the other champions and the Emperor's last stand was a great story and well finished. I thought the encounter between Icarium and Karsa was well worked out too.

The journey of Seren Pedac, Udinaas, Fear Sengar, Kettle, Clip and Silchas Ruin was equally fine, and although the end at the gates of Starvald Demelain is sad, the whole episode makes sense and is well written.

The developing friendship between and journey of Trull, Onrack, Quick Ben and Hedge was a good read.

Tehol and Bugg are superb as per usual.

I really enjoyed reading how the Bonehunters/marines advance towards Letheras. That was actually an amazing part of RG and we get to see the marines in action for the first time.

The journey of Nimander Golit and his sorry bunch of survivors from Drift Avalii is fine too. Not particularly stimulating, but hey.

I liked the story of Bruthen Trana and how he journeys to find the Champion, Brys Beddict. That was well told.

Although I have not much sympathy for the Errant and his erratic quests, I think he comes across really well, and his story with Feather Witch was also good.

What really annoyed me about this book, particularly the last 200 or so pages:

Overall I felt that the balance of certain story elements was somewhat off. Whilst at the beginning these elements start promising, the (temporary) conclusion of said elements towards the end of the book just doesn't justify the amount of time spent at the beginning.

For example, I really never got my head around the whole storyline concerning the Awl and Redmask, and the revolution which developed in the East around Drene, and Toc the Younger who turns up to get butchered yet again. This funky storyline is then topped off with the miraculous appearance of the White Face Barghast, which nobody has heard of since the third book, and now they just happen to pop out of nowhere in Lether. It's only in the eighth book the reader learns rather early on that they have disappeared miraculously from where they were before.

What didn't make sense was that the long heralded champion of the Awl failed them and then got cut down by his bodyguards. I mean- did he want to ruin the Awl people? Was it revenge? Or was it that he just didn't have any idea about strategy or tactics? Or was he just unlucky? No clue as towards that- and normally, you can get an idea at what SE is trying to get at throughout all of his books.

Whilst I am aware that SE introduced yet another element which will play a role later on, as he has been doing all along, I found that in RG he didn't manage to work that out as well as in other books. In my opinion, it doesn't add anything to the story. It tasted somewhat of self-indulgence – yet another great idea which couldn't be left out, or a lot of pressure from the editors. Either way, it's a shame.

Frankly, I would have preferred to read one page of the conversation between Mael and the Errant rather than the whole 300 pages of the Awl and Redmask story.

I couldn't believe when Tehol Beddict got married to the scholar and the last scene with him as new Emperor is so cheesy. Cheap movie ending to that.

I don't even want to start about the death of Trull Sengar. The Knight of Shadow who stood against Icarium gets stabbed in the back by the lousiest character in this book. I mean, Kalam got at least a worthy last stand in the Mouse, and Trull- he got fucked all over until the end. Well, there's always the HOPE that he will turn up again, I figure that's what happens to a lot of other characters in the series.... If not, at least Seren Pedac has his child, so he does live on in a way, and his offspring seems to be under the protection of Mael.

Almost done… how Silchas Ruin gets his ass blown off above Letheras. WTF? He is the biggest meanest dragon of them all, he survives the Azath, all of his draconic relatives are shitting themselves since he has escaped the Azath, and then he gets blown into bits by the Bridgeburners. Now, I know that Fid and Co know what they're doing with Moranth fireworks, because after all, they are still alive.(Why didn't that happen in Pale, with a lot more Bridgeburners and other sappers around and a lot more Moranth munition at hand?) This temporary conclusion to the Silchas story line is ridiculous, in all seriousness, particularly because of the way he was first introduced. He is a the most draconic of the sons of Mother Dark, he is super intelligent and super powerful, now why would he fly all the way to Letheras when he could go and take the Crippled God on straight away?

And along the same lines: Quick Ben suddenly turns into this guy who smacks dragons before breakfast. When and how did that happen? I mean, he is a powerful wizard, no doubt, and superbly intelligent, but until now, he had not been portrayed as a mage who can take on dragons.

The title Malazan Tales of the Fallen is ambiguous. I always understood it in terms of the Fallen God, not all the fallen people.

All in all, still worth the read. Just not as great a book as the others in the series.












This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 15 June 2011 - 04:22 PM

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#42 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:19 PM

Have you read a lot of the conversations on the board about this book? They can be pretty illuminating. And of course finishing the series will help too, along with the forums for those books. Especially for how vital the Awl story is. That might not all change your mind or anything, but it might help somehow anyway.

That said, it's a bridging book, moreso than maybe any other in the series. It's where most of the existing strands of the story bottleneck, and it's also where a lot of the setup for the final books is set up, so it's definitely not as clean as the books that came before it. Kinda similar to HoC in that way, as it has to conclude previous storylines AND set up the new ones, but even moreso. The little things that annoyed you, I dunno, maybe they can't be helped. But this is one of my favorites, and I must say, I liked it even better on a reread when not racing to the conclusion.
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#43 User is offline   POOPOO MCBUMFACE 

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:14 PM

Quote

This funky storyline is then topped off with the miraculous appearance of the White Face Barghast, which nobody has heard of since the third book, and now they just happen to pop out of nowhere in Lether. It's only in the eighth book the reader learns rather early on that they have disappeared miraculously from where they were before.



Memories of Ice, UK paperback p765:

Quote

"And what will be the purpose of these swords? Of those young warriors who will wield them?"
"You may find an answer one day, Ganoes Paran."
[...]
You will dismantle these canoes. Learn the art of making them. "Will the land remain your home for much longer, Barghast?"
Cafal smiled. "No."


Not to sound like a smartarse, just a coincidence that I caught this today on my MoI re-read. I was just as stumped as you when the Barghast appeared in RG, but it falls into place pretty well on re-read... other than maybe some timeline issues.

Otherwise, I agree for the most part with your post, definitely my least favourite book in the series (maybe tied with House of Chains). I get the feeling both will be much stronger on re-read when I'm not rushing to find out what the epic conclusion to the latest installment will be.
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#44 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 07:14 PM

 Miss Savage, on 15 June 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

Almost done… how Silchas Ruin gets his ass blown off above Letheras. WTF? He is the biggest meanest dragon of them all, he survives the Azath, all of his draconic relatives are shitting themselves since he has escaped the Azath, and then he gets blown into bits by the Bridgeburners. Now, I know that Fid and Co know what they're doing with Moranth fireworks, because after all, they are still alive.(Why didn't that happen in Pale, with a lot more Bridgeburners and other sappers around and a lot more Moranth munition at hand?) This temporary conclusion to the Silchas story line is ridiculous, in all seriousness, particularly because of the way he was first introduced. He is a the most draconic of the sons of Mother Dark, he is super intelligent and super powerful, now why would he fly all the way to Letheras when he could go and take the Crippled God on straight away?

And along the same lines: Quick Ben suddenly turns into this guy who smacks dragons before breakfast. When and how did that happen? I mean, he is a powerful wizard, no doubt, and superbly intelligent, but until now, he had not been portrayed as a mage who can take on dragons


but you didn't find it strange when QB sent the lifestealer himself tumbling back a dozen times? Quick's attack on the sisters works because of the pebble he slipped into menandores robes. it acts as a focus for his rituals, which we've seen him do before, allowing him to lift an entire hillside.

silchas ruin went out like a punk cuz he thought that nobody could challenge him. another case of the ancient underestimating the young. not to mention that a cusser blowing up (never mind two) will seriously fuck up anyones day. dragon or not. i mean, silchas may be big and mean, but what does he know about 12 warrens and munitions? nothin. as for why he flew to letheras and not direct to the CG, well i'd imagine that he wanted to use rhulad to get to the CG. throughout the whole thing he was uninformed. by the time he's flying, rhulad's already dead.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 15 June 2011 - 07:18 PM

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#45 User is offline   Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:53 AM

 worrywort, on 15 June 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

That said, it's a bridging book, moreso than maybe any other in the series. It's where most of the existing strands of the story bottleneck, and it's also where a lot of the setup for the final books is set up, so it's definitely not as clean as the books that came before it. Kinda similar to HoC in that way, as it has to conclude previous storylines AND set up the new ones, but even moreso. The little things that annoyed you, I dunno, maybe they can't be helped. But this is one of my favorites, and I must say, I liked it even better on a reread when not racing to the conclusion.


I have read through a fair number of threads about RG- but your reply here to my post makes something really clear: I now understand why the book is written in such a way; and I appreciate that it isn't easy to set the stage across several continents, many storylines and introducing new characters. The little things still annoy me, but I can sort of let go now and look at the book in a different light. Much better (-: thanks for that!


 POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 15 June 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

Quote

This funky storyline is then topped off with the miraculous appearance of the White Face Barghast, which nobody has heard of since the third book, and now they just happen to pop out of nowhere in Lether. It's only in the eighth book the reader learns rather early on that they have disappeared miraculously from where they were before.



Memories of Ice, UK paperback p765:

Quote

"And what will be the purpose of these swords? Of those young warriors who will wield them?"
"You may find an answer one day, Ganoes Paran."
[...]
You will dismantle these canoes. Learn the art of making them. "Will the land remain your home for much longer, Barghast?"
Cafal smiled. "No."


Not to sound like a smartarse, just a coincidence that I caught this today on my MoI re-read. I was just as stumped as you when the Barghast appeared in RG, but it falls into place pretty well on re-read... other than maybe some timeline issues.

Otherwise, I agree for the most part with your post, definitely my least favourite book in the series (maybe tied with House of Chains). I get the feeling both will be much stronger on re-read when I'm not rushing to find out what the epic conclusion to the latest installment will be.


*LOL* that's a well timed and well placed re-read...very funny! It's been a while since I read MoI- maybe I should give it another read.



 Sinisdar Toste, on 15 June 2011 - 07:14 PM, said:

but you didn't find it strange when QB sent the lifestealer himself tumbling back a dozen times? Quick's attack on the sisters works because of the pebble he slipped into menandores robes. it acts as a focus for his rituals, which we've seen him do before, allowing him to lift an entire hillside.

silchas ruin went out like a punk cuz he thought that nobody could challenge him. another case of the ancient underestimating the young. not to mention that a cusser blowing up (never mind two) will seriously fuck up anyones day. dragon or not. i mean, silchas may be big and mean, but what does he know about 12 warrens and munitions? nothin. as for why he flew to letheras and not direct to the CG, well i'd imagine that he wanted to use rhulad to get to the CG. throughout the whole thing he was uninformed. by the time he's flying, rhulad's already dead.


Frankly, I did find it funny how QB stood against Icarium- but it bothered me less in the context of the whole book because BH was more harmonic than RG. What I don't understand at the moment is not how QB did focus his ritual, but where did he get the power to perform such a ritual in the first place? I know he has access to twelve warrens, but I am sure not all of the souls he has been accommodating in his body since Raraku are High Mages with access to their respective High Warrens, so did he develop access and power of the individual warrens over time, or is there something about QB we don't know yet- or is that just artistic freedom to give him suddenly so much power?
The story about Silchas - I think him underestimating the young humans is too simple an explanation in these books. Also, as a dragon he is an innate magic creature and therefore I believe he would know about how magic in this world works, and I guess he was around when the warrens were formed at first. Furthermore, I think he could find the Crippled God without using Rhulad to get access to the island where he "lives".
I suppose I have to wait until the end to see what's going to happen with this storyline...I am just now in the first book of Toll the Hounds- so a little while to go before the end.
Cheers!

This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 17 June 2011 - 04:08 PM

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#46 User is offline   beru 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:37 PM

The twelve souls were all high magi...
he also got stretched from icci AND i have a theory that some of his souls ascended or at least walked a long way down that corridor, it makes sense to me
i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels
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Posted 17 June 2011 - 03:26 PM

 Miss Savage, on 17 June 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:


The story about Silchas - I think him underestimating the young humans is too simple an explanation in these books. Also, as a dragon he is an innate magic creature and therefore I believe he would know about how magic in this world works, and I guess he was around when the warrens were formed at first. Furthermore, I think he could find the Crippled God without using Rhulad to get access to the island where he "lives".
I suppose I have to wait until the end to see what's going to happen with this storyline...I am just now in the first book of Toll the Hounds- so a little while to go before the end.
Cheers!



K'rul didn't create the new warrens quite that early!

More to the point the Draconic Warren, Starvald Demelain and the Tiste Andii one Kurald Galain, are both Elder Warrens that would tell him nothing about the new Warrens... especially since the new Warrens weren't even really active in Lether like they were in the rest of Wu.

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#48 User is offline   Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy 

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:21 PM

 beru, on 17 June 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

The twelve souls were all high magi...
he also got stretched from icci AND i have a theory that some of his souls ascended or at least walked a long way down that corridor, it makes sense to me



Aha- so I was altogether totally wrong. Is it mentioned in the second or third book that all of the mages QB absorbed were High Mages? And interesting theory btw that individual souls ascended or are on the way to ascension. Is there more info on these mages in the final three books of the Tales?


 Kanubis, on 17 June 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:



K'rul didn't create the new warrens quite that early!

More to the point the Draconic Warren, Starvald Demelain and the Tiste Andii one Kurald Galain, are both Elder Warrens that would tell him nothing about the new Warrens... especially since the new Warrens weren't even really active in Lether like they were in the rest of Wu.






I always assumed even though Silchas Ruin's physical manifestation remained imprisoned in the Azath his "spirit" could still wander about- he appears to Trull Sengar as a ghost, and he took Kettle on these journeys to important events in the past.


Is there some more info on Warrens and Warren creations later on in the books- or do I have to weave my way through the respective threads on this here website?
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#49 User is offline   Bauchelain the Evil 

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 10:37 AM

 Miss Savage, on 17 June 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:


I always assumed even though Silchas Ruin's physical manifestation remained imprisoned in the Azath his "spirit" could still wander about- he appears to Trull Sengar as a ghost, and he took Kettle on these journeys to important events in the past.




True but that was still in Lether were the only magic is Holds or Elder warren. In fact I'm pretty sure that in RG Seren is explaining to him how Mockra works and Silchas says that there was no such magic in his time but he does feel that the Holds and EW are weakening.
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#50 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:35 AM

 Bauchelain the Evil, on 18 June 2011 - 10:37 AM, said:

 Miss Savage, on 17 June 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:


I always assumed even though Silchas Ruin's physical manifestation remained imprisoned in the Azath his "spirit" could still wander about- he appears to Trull Sengar as a ghost, and he took Kettle on these journeys to important events in the past.




True but that was still in Lether were the only magic is Holds or Elder warren. In fact I'm pretty sure that in RG Seren is explaining to him how Mockra works and Silchas says that there was no such magic in his time but he does feel that the Holds and EW are weakening.

for clarity, seren asks silchas if he could fog the minds of the guards in the fort, rather than killing them, and he replies that he knows of no sorcery that could achieve that. she replies, well, mockra, and silchas says he has no idea what that is.
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#51 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:53 AM

Hi Miss Savage. I personally agree with your criticism of RG, particularly the Redmask story. I probably liked it more than you did because I usually enjoy following the marines, love Bugg and Tehol, and the whole way through I was PUMPED about Icarium finally shutting Karsa Orlong up. I did, however, also felt the Redmask story was forced-in. I know worrywort said it was vital for the later books but if he's meaning what I think he is (from book 9 worrywort?) it seems like it was about 250 pages of overkill just to build some context and lead us into the finale.
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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:11 AM

 Abberon, on 21 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Hi Miss Savage. I personally agree with your criticism of RG, particularly the Redmask story. I probably liked it more than you did because I usually enjoy following the marines, love Bugg and Tehol, and the whole way through I was PUMPED about Icarium finally shutting Karsa Orlong up. I did, however, also felt the Redmask story was forced-in. I know worrywort said it was vital for the later books but if he's meaning what I think he is (from book 9 worrywort?) it seems like it was about 250 pages of overkill just to build some context and lead us into the finale.


And, you'd be right so far as your own justification goes. But, for me the Redmask story does a couple of things:

1. It establishes Letherii relations with non-Edur neighbors, especially the made up Bolkandi Alliance that materializes into a real one. Letheras dominates the continent, but it's not so simple as that.
2. It creates a great deal of context, purpose, and history to the Awl and their historic wars/running retreat against the fleeing K'Chain Che'maille and Redmask's legacy.
3. The true nature of most rebellions is that they end in everyone dead.
4. Toc. Toc. Toc. Christ almighty, poor Toc.
5. T'lan Imass Tellan Rituals seriously fucked over pieces of the world, even as far away as that continent.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 21 June 2011 - 06:12 AM

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#53 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 07:03 AM

Spoiler stuff below is from future books, but I left it fairly vague anyway.

I do in part mean what you think I mean, Abby, presuming it's
Spoiler
.

And I also support everything HD said, particularly 1, 2, and 4. But I was also thinking of everything else that stems from this storyline:
Spoiler


And while I agree it's there ultimately to build context and lead us to the finale, I don't see what's so wrong with that, since it's plenty interesting along the way, and I appreciate having context. I personally really enjoy the historical stuff with the KCCM, and how this continent is a source of many of the peoples that spread out to other lands. We get some of this from Beak's psychic power stuff too, but it all lends itself to each other. I won't go into detail cuz I'm not 100% sure, and this isn't spoilery really, but isn't some of the TTT war history stuff here too? And I certainly don't think it's overkill, not sure what you mean there, but if you mean it literally, HD's #3 may answer that. Ask Robespierre if he thinks he came out ahead (r d r r).

I don't expect to convince you to like stuff you didn't like, but I liked Redmask/Awl stuff a whole lot. I mean if you're saying "I don't care," that's cool, but if you're actually asking "who cares?", I'd certainly raise my hand.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 21 June 2011 - 07:05 AM

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#54 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 04:04 AM

I think my actual negative criticism of the books is fairly consistent from thread to thread. It all kind of ties into what I can only sum up as "less is sometimes more". I can appreciate that it builds context, and I haven't read TCG yet as you know (starting MoI on my rereard), but if it was just a tie-in with those events in DoD it does seem like a lot of writing just to build what I saw as minor background.

I haven't personally liked the Toc character beyond Gardens of the Moon because I'm not a huge fan of the resurrection mechanics, so that point is lost on me. HD's other points, such as Letherii relations with its neighbours, I believe is already fairly well described in MT, both from Tehol as well as the Edur and others. We already knew it was a greedy expansionist Empire and that it subjugated, corrupted and enslaved its neighbors.

The war itself was kind of interesting in parts, but I couldn't help but think throughout that it was segway and I was far more interested in getting back to Mappo, Icarium and the Malazan invasion, who were characters we'd been following for several books by then. I think I've stated here before that I didn't really appreciate the introduction of many of the new subplots in the later books but there are clearly a lot of people here who did. Nevertheless, I probably will chime in here and there when new members and others post criticisms I agree with, if not for any other reason than to make myself feel better *sniffle*.
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Posted 24 June 2011 - 01:11 PM

thanks for sharing insights and taking time to reply - very interesting and much appreciated. i suppose for some points it's like "let's agree to disagree" because they're simply down to personal tastes, in others my underlying assumptions were wrong and all in all i gotta finish the whole series and maybe re-read MoI, better yet, all of them, and then think about RG again.
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Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:47 PM

 Traveller, on 14 August 2009 - 10:33 AM, said:

Munitions are especially reactive against magic though



Which book is this mentioned in ?

Anyone got any Quote Fu ??

This post has been edited by j2tks: 12 July 2011 - 09:48 PM

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#57 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:51 PM

 j2tks, on 12 July 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

 Traveller, on 14 August 2009 - 10:33 AM, said:

Munitions are especially reactive against magic though



Which book is this mentioned in ?

Anyone got any Quote Fu ??


Fiddler or Hedge somewhere remarking on it, maybe in MoI or HoC, but it's true.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#58 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:14 AM

 HoosierDaddy, on 12 July 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

 j2tks, on 12 July 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

 Traveller, on 14 August 2009 - 10:33 AM, said:

Munitions are especially reactive against magic though



Which book is this mentioned in ?

Anyone got any Quote Fu ??


Fiddler or Hedge somewhere remarking on it, maybe in MoI or HoC, but it's true.

it's actually a quick ben memory i think. and it's not exactly so clear cut. otataral was involved, and it caused the reaction. quick's thoughts go sorta like 'it wasn't what happened when otataral got hot. it was what happened when you threw magic at hot otataral'

i pretty sure that's the reaction that quick is talking about. munitions (presumably burners) + otataral + magic = WTFNOWIMDEAD
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#59 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 06:28 AM

Pretty sure it was Kalam, not Quick, and I'm almost certain it was in HoC.

EDIT - Ah! here it is.

Quote

Otataral, it seemed, did not go well with Moranth munitions, particularly burners and flamers. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't like getting hot. He knew that weapons were quenched in otataral dust at a late stage in their forging. When the iron had lost its glow, in fact. Likely, blacksmiths had arrived at that conclusion the hard way. But even that was not the whole secret. It's what happens to hot otataral...when you throw magic at it.

This post has been edited by MTS: 13 July 2011 - 06:40 AM

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#60 User is offline   Whiskey Bass 

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 05:41 PM

 MTS, on 13 July 2011 - 06:28 AM, said:

Pretty sure it was Kalam, not Quick, and I'm almost certain it was in HoC.

EDIT - Ah! here it is.

Quote

Otataral, it seemed, did not go well with Moranth munitions, particularly burners and flamers. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't like getting hot. He knew that weapons were quenched in otataral dust at a late stage in their forging. When the iron had lost its glow, in fact. Likely, blacksmiths had arrived at that conclusion the hard way. But even that was not the whole secret. It's what happens to hot otataral...when you throw magic at it.




What has Otataral got to do with it ?, some early posts held the position that :-

'Munitions are especially reactive against magic' Traveller 14 August 2009 - 10:33 AM
and
'Moranth Munitions destroy magic' Pennyapt 14 August 2009 - 03:58 PM

The quote off MTS apears to be stating that Otataral is unstable at high temperatures. And obviously munitions like Burners and Flamers burn, ie they have a very high themal temperature.

So Otataral + Magic = Run!
and
Hot Otataral + Magic = Shit! is it worth running?,

But that doesnt say to me that Moranth Munitions themselves are 'anti - magic in themselves.

Not unless the Otataral is an ingredient in the munitions ?

Cheers for the replys though :p
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