[Andromander]

Dont get me wrong, this is a great book, as epic as memories of ice, but
the ending really got me annoyed, first of all:

1. Morath mutions were way too overpowered and limitless, thats right,
since the very start marines were whining that they got only few left,
but they kept blowing shit up till the very end, Letherii and Tise Endur were dieing like they didnt know how to fight at all..

I was like "Oh a battle scene! what? its already over?"
BANG BANG and thats all,
where the fun in this? I dont want to read a hollywood action
movie script but a medieval fantasy book,

and how the hell cusser can damage a "fucking" dragon? A dragon who was so strong that he was trapped in the azath house cuz scabardi didnt have what it takes to bring him down.
Silchas Ruin was so underpowered its almost patethic.

2. Why Trull Sengar the knight of shadow dies by the hand of most pointless character in the whole book? What the hell, I almost stopt reading at this point. Such a tragic and pointless death.

4 And whats with the pointless characters like twillight and her bunch of
bums? I was bored as hell while reading all the shake part of the book,
are they coming back somewhere in the next books?

5. Also, at the end it seems that Stevan is trying very hard to kill every
B rate characted ASAP, such dumb deaths, like Varalack or what was his name, Icarium's companion.
And whats with the gory description? Why must we know
that half of his head was split off with a huge rock?
And that finnad, 19 years old guy, who charged the malazans after the arti preda got the barrel in his head, who the hell wants to read
about him touching his brains? He was a 4 sentence character for gods sake, why give him a name and describe his gory death in details?


6. Why did they(Silchas, Trull, Clip etc.) start to fight right after they
plunged out of the portal? Thats so ridicilous, Fear was trying to backstab Silchas Ruin? And then what? He'd take him to azath grounds? Even Scabardi, as we know, didnt have what it takes to kill Silchas.

THis battle was so pointless, they could just used the diplamacy and
the Imass with finnest was standing like an asshole and watching,
he could just give the damn dagger to the Ruin.

This post has been edited by Andromander: 14 August 2009 - 10:21 AM

[Traveller]

Oh ye of little faith.


Yes, Munitions do have a way of seeming limitless - there have been enough moans about that. Maybe they all had secret stashes that they didn't tell everybody about. Munitions are especially reactive against magic though - which dragons are pretty much fuelled by, so cussers would be fairly devastating.
(Plus, I don't think Ruin had encountered moranth stuff before - it caught him by surprise I think).

Trulls death was tragic, poignant and sad - but blame the Errant, anyway. He 'nudged', Trull died - Knight of shadow brought down by master of the tiles.
He isn't one of the most pointless characters, he's got a bigger part to play yet. Anyway, tragedy is the theme - 'malazan book of the FALLEN?'

Twilight and the shake are Andii decendents, and will be playing a greater role later - RG is just their introduction.

Dumb deaths? All I'll say is, how do you know they are dead? I mean, really dead? Nothing wrong with a few 'colourful' endings imo.

Clip acted quickly when they went throught the portal - I think that's what started the ruck, haven't read it recently. Things escalated from there, I think.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 14 August 2009 - 10:42 AM

[MTS]

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 08:15 PM, said:

Dont get me wrong, this is a great book, as epic as memories of ice, but
the ending really got me annoyed, first of all:

1. Morath mutions were way too overpowered and limitless, thats right,
since the very start marines were whining that they got only few left,
but they kept blowing shit up till the very end,

I was like "Oh a battle scene! what? its already over?"
BANG BANG and thats all,
where the fun in this? I dont want to read a hollywood action
movie script but a medieval fantasy book,

and how the hell cusser can damage a "fucking" dragon? A dragon who was so strong that he was trapped in the azath house cuz scabardi didnt have what it takes to bring him down.
Silchas Ruin was so underpowered its almost patethic.
Yeah, that's one of my criticisms about this book too. About Silchas though - it is a recurrent theme of the series that even immortals are vulnerable in a variety of ways. "Don't mess with mortals" is said on a number of times. Besides, you might be a badass motherfucker who can vomit Starvald Demelain, but when a fucking bomb explodes in your face, you're gonna be worse for wear. Doesn't matter how much vitality you have.

To be honest, I'm surprised you're not frothing at the mouth over how Karsa killed Rhulad so easily. That was by far the biggest anticlimax.

2. Why Trull Sengar the knight of shadow dies by the hand of most pointless character in the whole book? What the hell, I almost stopt reading at this point. Such a tragic and pointless death.
That was the point. It's called the Malazan Book of the Fallen for a reason, you know. Tragedy is the bread and butter of this series. It makes us sigh over "what could've been", and engages us emotionally as a reader. It was a great piece of writing, even though I railed at the pointlessness. But hey, that's life.

4 And whats with the pointless characters like twillight and her bunch of
bums? I was bored as hell while reading all the shake part of the book,
are they coming back somewhere in the next books?
Apparently the Shake are very relevant in DoD. Be patient.

5. Also, at the end it seems that Stevan is trying very hard to kill every
B rate characted ASAP, such dumb deaths, like Varalack or what was his name, Icarium's companion.
And whats with the gory description? Why must we know
that half of his head was split off with a huge rock?
And that finnad, 19 years old guy, who charged the malazans after the arti preda got the barrel in his head, who the hell wants to read
about him touching his brains? He was a 4 sentence character for gods sake, why give him a name and describe his gory death in details?
It is to illustrate the horror of war, and to make with that character a connection to the reader, and illustrate that every fallen soldier in battle is a person, not just some random automaton. It's literature, and I'm surprised you're complaining about the gore. HoC and MoI were much worse.

6. Why did they(Silchas, Trull, Clip etc.) start to fight right after they
plunged out of the portal? Thats so ridicilous, Fear was trying to backstab Silchas Ruin? And then what? He'd take him to azath grounds? Even Scabardi, as we know, didnt have what it takes to kill Silchas.

THis battle was so pointless, they could just used the diplamacy and
the Imass with finnest was standing like an asshole and watching,
he could just give the damn dagger to the Ruin.
They did it because they didn't trust each other, and they all had their own agendas concerning the Finnest. Diplomacy would never have worked, because none of them were willing to negotiate. I thought that was pretty obvious. As to Fear biting off more than he can chew, well, he was desperate, and what else could he do? He needed the Finnest - and Scabandari's soul - to find a sense of legitimacy in his life and to redeem his people. Silchas would never have let that happen. He had no choice but to backstab, even if he would probably fail.

[Andromander]

Traveller, on Aug 14 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

Oh ye of little faith.


Yes, Munitions do have a way of seeming limitless - there have been enough moans about that. Maybe they all had secret stashes that they didn't tell everybody about. Munitions are especially reactive against magic though - which dragons are pretty much fuelled by, so cussers would be fairly devastating.

Well, they seem to have limitless secret stashes.

Trulls death was tragic, poignant and sad - but blame the Errant, anyway. He 'nudged', Trull died - Knight of shadow brought down by master of the holds.
He isn't one of the most pointless characters, he's got a bigger part to play yet. Anyway, tragedy is the theme - 'malazan book of the FALLEN?'
Why did Errant "nudge" the death of Trull? I missed this part.


Dumb deaths? All I'll say is, how do you know they are dead? I mean, really dead? Nothing wrong with a few 'colourful' endings imo.
Right, maybe they aint, maybe they ascended but I hope they are dead, because its already too banal that every damn hero returns in the books after they die, the whole dieing and fighting seems little bit pointless.

Clip acted quickly when they went throught the portal - I think that's what started the ruck, haven't read it recently. Things escalated from there, I think.
Fear was the one who acted quickly, irrc.

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 14 2009, 01:34 PM, said:

To be honest, I'm surprised you're not frothing at the mouth over how Karsa killed Rhulad so easily. That was by far the biggest anticlimax.

Well, I forgot to mention that, yeah, I was hoping for more epic kind of a fight.

This post has been edited by Andromander: 14 August 2009 - 10:46 AM

[Traveller]

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 11:43 AM, said:

Trulls death was tragic, poignant and sad - but blame the Errant, anyway. He 'nudged', Trull died - Knight of shadow brought down by master of the holds.
He isn't one of the most pointless characters, he's got a bigger part to play yet. Anyway, tragedy is the theme - 'malazan book of the FALLEN?'
Why did Errant "nudge" the death of Trull? I missed this part.

Cos he's a bastard! No, really, because it's his nature - he 'nudged' just enough, so that Trull missed the shadow of the owl that was disturbed by his killer sneaking up on him.

If you re-read, check what Bottles saying in his sleep. Then see what happens to Trull. Then, afterwards, see the Errant tearing himself up with guilt, because although he helped Trull die, he didn't want to - it was more out of his control than he wanted to admit - it's his nature to nudge.

(..and anyway, after HoC, was anyone really expecting Karsa to do anything less than walk in and kill Rhulad without breaking a sweat?)

This post has been edited by Traveller: 14 August 2009 - 11:04 AM

[Sindriss]

Fear acted the way he did because he saw his brother standing on the opposite side of their party. He kenw it would end in a confrontation, and he still loved his brother, despite their previous fall out. He was wrecked by guild of what had happened to trull and his subsequent leaving of the burden to trull while he would wander. (The burden being rhulad).
By acting like this, he hoped to redeem himself and he probably knew he would be killed by this, but he needed to do something to help trull.

[Obdigore]

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 05:15 AM, said:

Dont get me wrong, this is a great book, as epic as memories of ice, but
the ending really got me annoyed, first of all:

1. Morath mutions were way too overpowered and limitless, thats right,
since the very start marines were whining that they got only few left,
but they kept blowing shit up till the very end, Letherii and Tise Endur were dieing like they didnt know how to fight at all..

Remember how hedge materialized with a sack full of cussers? That is who supplied cussers to take out the dragon

Quote

I was like "Oh a battle scene! what? its already over?"
BANG BANG and thats all,
where the fun in this? I dont want to read a hollywood action
movie script but a medieval fantasy book,

and how the hell cusser can damage a "fucking" dragon? A dragon who was so strong that he was trapped in the azath house cuz scabardi didnt have what it takes to bring him down.
Silchas Ruin was so underpowered its almost patethic.

Remember that the 'old hoary powers' can't stand up to the new, more refined powers. The greatest showing of this is the Water-God-Defender vs Brys. Vast power means nothing when you can't control it like the new powers can.

Quote

2. Why Trull Sengar the knight of shadow dies by the hand of most pointless character in the whole book? What the hell, I almost stopt reading at this point. Such a tragic and pointless death.

Pointless? Do you know it is pointless?

Quote

4 And whats with the pointless characters like twillight and her bunch of
bums? I was bored as hell while reading all the shake part of the book,
are they coming back somewhere in the next books?

My assumption is yes. From previews of DoD, I believe the answer is yes.

Quote

5. Also, at the end it seems that Stevan is trying very hard to kill every
B rate characted ASAP, such dumb deaths, like Varalack or what was his name, Icarium's companion.
And whats with the gory description? Why must we know
that half of his head was split off with a huge rock?
And that finnad, 19 years old guy, who charged the malazans after the arti preda got the barrel in his head, who the hell wants to read
about him touching his brains? He was a 4 sentence character for gods sake, why give him a name and describe his gory death in details?

Reality? Glimpses of what happens in battles? Earlier you where whining that there wasn't enough 'battle', and now there is too much?

Quote

6. Why did they(Silchas, Trull, Clip etc.) start to fight right after they
plunged out of the portal? Thats so ridicilous, Fear was trying to backstab Silchas Ruin? And then what? He'd take him to azath grounds? Even Scabardi, as we know, didnt have what it takes to kill Silchas.

THis battle was so pointless, they could just used the diplamacy and
the Imass with finnest was standing like an asshole and watching,
he could just give the damn dagger to the Ruin.

Silchas went through the portal first. Attacked Trull. Fear came through and saw Trull fighting Silchas, and figured he couldn't win, so he moved to save his brother by attacking Silchas from behind. Clip came through and strangulated Fear to protect Silchas.

You are ignoring who these people are. When has Silchas ever used diplomacy instead of force to just take what he wants? I doubt the Imass knew what Silchas was after when he started in on Trull.

Have you read all the books before this one? Have you realized yet that a few different things, here and there, would change this story drastically? This is the Malazan Book of the Fallen. It is about loss. What brings about loss more than anything else? Pride and Greed.

[Aptorian]

MTB and Traveller already gave some good answers, but I'll add some opinions.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

1. Morath mutions were way too overpowered and limitless, thats right,

Moranth munitions are made to be overpowering and when connected with imperial supply routes they are also seemingly limitless. See RCG for how bad it can go when you have too many munitions.

RG was the first book where we got to see how strong tactically used munitions can be as a weapon of surprise and terror.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

since the very start marines were whining that they got only few left,

If you recall the Marines/Sappers are always complaining they are running out. Mean while they've always stashed away a bundle of them for a rainy day. Sappers would rather die than waste their last cusser.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

but they kept blowing shit up till the very end, Letherii and Tise Endur were dieing like they didnt know how to fight at all..

I was like "Oh a battle scene! what? its already over?"
BANG BANG and that's all,

It's almost like they'd never fought an enemy using alchemical munitions before... oh wait! ...

Besides the devastating potential of the munitions, in this book we also got to see why the Marines were so good and why they where respected. The small groups using a mix of shadow and mocra along with munitions and dirty hit and run tactics completely ruin the Edur and Letherii soldiers attempt at containing and killing them.

By the end how ever, you also get to hear about the Edur returning to their old ways, warfare among shadows, and they're turning the running battle, the Marines are taking casualties.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

where the fun in this? I don't want to read a Hollywood action
movie script but a medieval fantasy book,

But this isn't really medieval fantasy. Think of the Malazan Marines as SEALs with swords and quantum technology.

If you want boring pitched battles go read A Song of Snores.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

and how the hell cusser can damage a "fucking" dragon? A dragon who was so strong that he was trapped in the azath house cuz scabardi didnt have what it takes to bring him down.

Moranth Munitions destroy magic. You don't want to have a warren open when a Cusser strikes.

Dragons are more or less a magical elemental creature. They are highly vulnerable to the effect of the munitions.

Silchas Ruin and Scabby didn't have to be put in an azath and a finnest because they were unbeatable and unkillable. Anything in the Malazan World can be defeated and brought low. They had to be trapped because they are ascendants and their souls are too strong. Kill the body and the soul/essence of the ascendant may still escape and come back bigger and badder than the last time.

If anything it's a testimony to Ruins strength that he took two direct hits from Cussers and the full brunt of Quicks warrens and survived to fly away. The Sisters didn't get hit half that hard and they died.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

Silchas Ruin was so underpowered its almost patethic.

Silchas Ruin was so overpowered in that book that Erikson spent the whole book making excuses for Ruin not just flying off in MT and eating all the Imass half an hour later. Because he could have done that. The Crippled God was scared of him for christs sake. The Crippled God mocks Mael for christ sake.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

2. Why Trull Sengar the knight of shadow dies by the hand of most pointless character in the whole book? What the hell, I almost stopt reading at this point. Such a tragic and pointless death.

My copy of RG has a dent in the corner from where it hit the wall when I read the death of Trull.

As Erikson said, Trull had to die because his story was finished. This is not a book of happy endings. We're reading an ancient tragedy.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

4 And whats with the pointless characters like twillight and her bunch of
bums? I was bored as hell while reading all the shake part of the book,
are they coming back somewhere in the next books?

I hated them aswell. All though I really liked the info of KCCM eggs infecting human beings, baby skulls coming alaive and stuff, they really were annoying.

How ever, people who've read DOD say that their story starts to get meaning when new events unfold in DOD and TCG. There's a lot of seemingly pointless stuff and loose ends in RG that start to make sense when we get to the new book.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

5. Also, at the end it seems that Stevan is trying very hard to kill every
B rate characted ASAP, such dumb deaths, like Varalack or what was his name, Icariu

And whats with the gory description? Why must we know
that half of his head was split off with a huge rock?
And that finnad, 19 years old guy, who charged the malazans after the arti preda got the barrel in his head, who the hell wants to read
about him touching his brains? He was a 4 sentence character for gods sake, why give him a name and describe his gory death in details?

Again, it's a tragedy, not an epic story of brave heroes and heroic deaths. In the real world, people don't die beatifull deaths, or live happy ever after. Death is ugly, life is pain, and that's that. Erikson doesn't pull his punches.

But, a word of advice, you hear in the ending of the book that Icariums machine is acting weird. It's eating people's conciousness.

Wait for the prologue of DOD to shed some light on the fate of all those people killed in the cataclysmic failure of the ritual.

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

6. Why did they(Silchas, Trull, Clip etc.) start to fight right after they
plunged out of the portal? Thats so ridicilous, Fear was trying to backstab Silchas Ruin? And then what? He'd take him to azath grounds? Even Scabardi, as we know, didnt have what it takes to kill Silchas.

You know I didn't like this either. It really made no sense that they didn't have a talk before going through, In all honesty there was no reason what so ever for Ruin not just ditching them all and going off on his own earlier.

But Fear wasn't thinking about the consequences of his actions. He saw his brother and he knew that Trull was facing an Andii god straight of the Edur legends. He didn't believe his brother would last a minute, so he chose to ecco that old betrayal, and try and back stab Ruin.

[Salt-Man Z]

I agree with point #1. I think the majority of people here agree with point #1.

But I also wholeheartedly agree with point #5. It's one of the main reasons I rate this book as the lowest point of the MBotF series. Icarium's machine turns on and suddenly a bunch of minor players (mostly introduced in this book) are randomly killed by falling buildings? The heck? That said, having read the DoD prologue, this was probably important in the overall plan of the series, but it sure did sour me on RG taken as its own book. I also agree that the violence seemed more graphically-presented, as the OP opined. Yes, other books have been fairly graphic (DG and MoI in particular) but whereas it seemed proper in those books (the horrors of war and all that) in this book it just seemed out of place, tacked-on and gratuitous. (Much like

Spoiler

the drunken orgy

in TtH.)

All that aside, I do expect DoD to make RG a much better book.

[The Crow]

Traveller, on Aug 14 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

(..and anyway, after HoC, was anyone really expecting Karsa to do anything less than walk in and kill Rhulad without breaking a sweat?)

Yeah, if there's anyone in this entire story that's overpowered it's Karsa, by far.
I'm getting sick and tired of hearing him wipe the floor with some of the most powerful beings in existence while hardly getting hurt. I mean, two deragoths? Some ~30-50 Edur at once?
The damn seguleh girl whom he bitchslapped around the room without taking a single hit, or even using his sword?

Spoiler

When even Iron Bars almost gets killed against a low ranked one

[ROTCG spoiler], that fight is one of the most unrealistic ones so far imo, up there with Silchas Ruin vs Cusser.

[Obdigore]

The Crow, on Aug 14 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Traveller, on Aug 14 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

(..and anyway, after HoC, was anyone really expecting Karsa to do anything less than walk in and kill Rhulad without breaking a sweat?)

Yeah, if there's anyone in this entire story that's overpowered it's Karsa, by far.
I'm getting sick and tired of hearing him wipe the floor with some of the most powerful beings in existence while hardly getting hurt. I mean, two deragoths? Some ~30-50 Edur at once?
The damn seguleh girl whom he bitchslapped around the room without taking a single hit, or even using his sword?

Spoiler

When even Iron Bars almost gets killed against a low ranked one

[ROTCG spoiler], that fight is one of the most unrealistic ones so far imo, up there with Silchas Ruin vs Cusser.

Again, the old powers are no match for the new ones,

and Karsa is pretty much Ascended, or possibly a new god to the TTT's. Mael took down 12 edur in half a second flat. Iskrael beat the crap out of the Deragoth as well.

Remember that at the moment no Seguleh gets off the island without being one of the 'thousand named' - and it is like the best awl warrior vs a KCCM - the racial gifts lean the battle heavily in one direction.

It wasn't just ONE cusser that hit Ruin. Wasn't it 3 with QB, the guy who pushed a keening Iccy back, hitting him with sorcery? Not to mention he had recently been defeated by a mortal Edur and Kilava.

Old Powers are no match for the new ones. How many times need it be said?

Being the best out of 100k, and having stories and legends because you are from years ago, does not stand up to being the best out of 100million.

[beru]

its also stated that fiddler only got one cusser left, more than once (in the woods after the drum, and utside the walls) wich he never uses (untill silcas that is) and the marines that had come by the river probably got lots in resereve so i dont think the number of munitions is a problem

[Andromander]

ok, thanks for answears, but still I will hold my ground on 1th and 5th point, you must be a total fanboy not to criticise these ones. (ok I am a fan of the series as well, but still I am not the blind follower)

also
"Old Powers are no match for the new ones."

No where in the series is mentioned that old powers are too old or something,
in fact, elder gods are stronger than wannabe gods and ascendants in the new world,
for example, crippled god is elder god as well.

[Salt-Man Z]

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

No where in the series is mentioned that old powers are too old or something

Well, here's where you're just flat-out wrong, I'm sorry. It's a pretty prevalent theme throughout the series, starting right off the bat in GotM with this supposedly-terrible Jaghut Tyrant (Raest) getting his butt handed to him. You've got this ancient terror, Dejim Nebrahl, getting taken out with little fanfare in TBH. The dragons get pwned by modern munitions in RG. The evolved abilities of the younger Warrens over the old Holds, et cetera, et cetera. Heck, even Fener getting replaced by Treach in DG/MoI fits the pattern somewhat. You can argue individual cases, naturally, but taken as a whole, the theme seems to be that older powers just aren't as relevant as they once were.

[Grief]

Yeah, I think that's quite a terrible generalisation Obdi. It doesn't say anywhere that old powers are weaker than new ones.
Yes, Paran says "don't fuck with mortals". On the other ahdn, he throws ottataral at a Goddess who is out of her realm. We know this makes them vulnerable. Also, that's not a matter of him being more powerful, it's a matter of her being vulnerable, and him not fighting fair. The fact that mortals are cruel is emphasised.

It's certainly not stated old powers are weaker.

As for Karsa, I dislike the character. However, the seguleh fight is kinda predictable, considering the sheer size and strength advantage he has. It's not a matter of skill at all. Also, he hasn't been up against close to the most powerful. The deragoth are strong, but as pointed out, Pust can handle them. Rake kills two hounds of shadow in about 2 seconds flat. Karsa is strong compared to mortals, but not against Elder Gods etc.

[Andromander]

Salt-Man Z, on Aug 15 2009, 12:22 AM, said:

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

No where in the series is mentioned that old powers are too old or something

Well, here's where you're just flat-out wrong, I'm sorry. It's a pretty prevalent theme throughout the series, starting right off the bat in GotM with this supposedly-terrible Jaghut Tyrant (Raest) getting his butt handed to him. You've got this ancient terror, Dejim Nebrahl, getting taken out with little fanfare in TBH. The dragons get pwned by modern munitions in RG. The evolved abilities of the younger Warrens over the old Holds, et cetera, et cetera. Heck, even Fener getting replaced by Treach in DG/MoI fits the pattern somewhat. You can argue individual cases, naturally, but taken as a whole, the theme seems to be that older powers just aren't as relevant as they once were.

But Raest got his ass kicked by dragons (elder power) and finished off with azath, malazans and daru mages stood no chances against him.
And Dejim Nebrahl got owned by elder powers as well, by shadow hounds and only because he was hungry and weak after the fight with Pust.
Also, Trench was the first hero and by no means new player.

[Grief]

Salt-Man Z, on Aug 14 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

Andromander, on Aug 14 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

No where in the series is mentioned that old powers are too old or something

Well, here's where you're just flat-out wrong, I'm sorry. It's a pretty prevalent theme throughout the series, starting right off the bat in GotM with this supposedly-terrible Jaghut Tyrant (Raest) getting his butt handed to him(1). You've got this ancient terror, Dejim Nebrahl, getting taken out with little fanfare in TBH(2). The dragons get pwned by modern munitions in RG(3). The evolved abilities of the younger Warrens over the old Holds(4), et cetera, et cetera. Heck, even Fener getting replaced by Treach in DG/MoI fits the pattern somewhat(5). You can argue individual cases, naturally, but taken as a whole, the theme seems to be that older powers just aren't as relevant as they once were.

1. That would be Raest who is weakened by 5 soletaken eleint and a pureblood beforehand? The mages just finish the job.
2. Admittedly-but he was extremely weakened, at a fraction of his power due to lack of blood.
3. True, but then they fight stupidly and are in forms of pretty much pure magic.
4. It's not said that the warrens are more powerful though.
5. Fener is a younger god, not an Elder.

[Grief]

I would say that a theme of the books is motion over stasis-change. The Elder powers who try to maintain things exactly how they were since their time, without adapting, have a hard time-they are surprised by new powers. However, those that change do not. Take K'rul. He describes his poewr as different now-but not weakened.

Same goes for Rake. He tries to stop the andii sinking into stagnation-finds new games ot play as K'rul describes it. He does not make the mistakes that the ones you describe do, and as such doesn't fit with the "new powers are more powerful"

It is Ruin, Poliel etc, those who make the mistake of underestimating the new powers that have troubles.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'll take back the "you're wrong" line from before, that was out of line. All I'm saying (I guess) is that the general trend is that every time some dude from the past that used to be all big and bad shows up, it turns out he's not all that.

[Grief]

Salt-Man Z, on Aug 14 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

I'll take back the "you're wrong" line from before, that was out of line. All I'm saying (I guess) is that the general trend is that every time some dude from the past that used to be all big and bad shows up, it turns out he's not all that.

This is, in my opinion, pretty much correct.

Most Elder Powers who try to just come back and rule like they used to(like Raest) fail miserably-but I feel this stems more from a failure to understand the new world than a lack of raw power.