[Obdigore]

Grief, on Aug 14 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

Yeah, I think that's quite a terrible generalisation Obdi. It doesn't say anywhere that old powers are weaker than new ones.
Yes, Paran says "don't fuck with mortals". On the other ahdn, he throws ottataral at a Goddess who is out of her realm. We know this makes them vulnerable. Also, that's not a matter of him being more powerful, it's a matter of her being vulnerable, and him not fighting fair. The fact that mortals are cruel is emphasised.

It's certainly not stated old powers are weaker.

As for Karsa, I dislike the character. However, the seguleh fight is kinda predictable, considering the sheer size and strength advantage he has. It's not a matter of skill at all. Also, he hasn't been up against close to the most powerful. The deragoth are strong, but as pointed out, Pust can handle them. Rake kills two hounds of shadow in about 2 seconds flat. Karsa is strong compared to mortals, but not against Elder Gods etc.

It isn't a terrible generalisation anywhere. It is a prevelant thread throughout the series.

It isn't 'stated', but over and over we see the old horrors of legend taken out by normal or exemplary (but still not ascended) current powers.

I didn't bring up the Poliel vs Paran thing because there were extraneous circumstances.

Think back in all the fights with creatures/gods/people with legends around them regarding their prowess, with nothing new that we have seen from them. They, one and all, get defeated by people/things that are 'normal' of the age, where they would be terrible ruling gods from their original age.

Think about the 5(7?) TTT that get out of the Azath House in Lether. Iron Bars is dancing, keeping them distracted and damaging them. Imagine what would happen if there were 5 Avowed there?

Whiskeyjack, who was a sparring partner of Dassem, but never his equal, had Kallor, a nightmare of your common terrors, dead to rights with a lunge when his leg gave out.

Seriously, can you not see this overarching thread? Gods/Ascendants are strong, but seem to be in general pridefull and possibly stupid because of it in this age. Mark my words, the gods/ascendants that are going to survive are the ones pushing other people to work for them, like Shadowthrone. Cot will die because he wants to help his followers/servants.

[blackzoid]

Doesn't anybody think the time has come for both Malazan Marines and Karsa to eat some humble pie?
What is the point of reading any storyline with those characters, when you know they will win every confrontation. No matter how "overmatched" they are.
Where the hell are the anti-cusser tactics? Or weapons? Maybe pieces of the jade statues?

And we have had the old powers getting overconfident and taken out by the new powers for a good few books now.
What is the point of Erikson describing how powerful any new creature was in the old days, if they are destined to die at the hands of some new power.
Where is the suspense?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

[Obdigore]

Grief, on Aug 14 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

I would say that a theme of the books is motion over stasis-change. The Elder powers who try to maintain things exactly how they were since their time, without adapting, have a hard time-they are surprised by new powers. However, those that change do not. Take K'rul. He describes his poewr as different now-but not weakened.

Same goes for Rake. He tries to stop the andii sinking into stagnation-finds new games ot play as K'rul describes it. He does not make the mistakes that the ones you describe do, and as such doesn't fit with the "new powers are more powerful"

It is Ruin, Poliel etc, those who make the mistake of underestimating the new powers that have troubles.

That is the point I was attempting to get across. Someone like Silchas, who just woke up from an old dirt nap, don't expect the strength, the skill, of the common person in todays Wu.

And now, my post above this one that I spend all the crossposting time writting will look silly!

[Obdigore]

blackzoid, on Aug 14 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

Doesn't anybody think the time has come for both Malazan Marines and Karsa to eat some humble pie?
What is the point of reading any storyline with those characters, when you know they will win every confrontation. No matter how "overmatched" they are.
Where the hell are the anti-cusser tactics? Or weapons? Maybe pieces of the jade statues?

And we have had the old powers getting overconfident and taken out by the new powers for a good few books now.
What is the point of Erikson describing how powerful any new creature was in the old days, if they are destined to die at the hands of some new power.
Where is the suspense?

He is setting us up for the ultimate mindfuck - when Grizzen Farl comes out of nowhere and heals the CG, making him the god of happiness.

[Grief]

Obdigore, on Aug 14 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

Grief, on Aug 14 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

Yeah, I think that's quite a terrible generalisation Obdi. It doesn't say anywhere that old powers are weaker than new ones.
Yes, Paran says "don't fuck with mortals". On the other ahdn, he throws ottataral at a Goddess who is out of her realm. We know this makes them vulnerable. Also, that's not a matter of him being more powerful, it's a matter of her being vulnerable, and him not fighting fair. The fact that mortals are cruel is emphasised.

It's certainly not stated old powers are weaker.

As for Karsa, I dislike the character. However, the seguleh fight is kinda predictable, considering the sheer size and strength advantage he has. It's not a matter of skill at all. Also, he hasn't been up against close to the most powerful. The deragoth are strong, but as pointed out, Pust can handle them. Rake kills two hounds of shadow in about 2 seconds flat. Karsa is strong compared to mortals, but not against Elder Gods etc.

It isn't a terrible generalisation anywhere. It is a prevelant thread throughout the series.

It isn't 'stated', but over and over we see the old horrors of legend taken out by normal or exemplary (but still not ascended) current powers.

I didn't bring up the Poliel vs Paran thing because there were extraneous circumstances.

Think back in all the fights with creatures/gods/people with legends around them regarding their prowess, with nothing new that we have seen from them. They, one and all, get defeated by people/things that are 'normal' of the age, where they would be terrible ruling gods from their original age.

Think about the 5(7?) TTT that get out of the Azath House in Lether. Iron Bars is dancing, keeping them distracted and damaging them. Imagine what would happen if there were 5 Avowed there?

Whiskeyjack, who was a sparring partner of Dassem, but never his equal, had Kallor, a nightmare of your common terrors, dead to rights with a lunge when his leg gave out.

Seriously, can you not see this overarching thread? Gods/Ascendants are strong, but seem to be in general pridefull and possibly stupid because of it in this age. Mark my words, the gods/ascendants that are going to survive are the ones pushing other people to work for them, like Shadowthrone. Cot will die because he wants to help his followers/servants.

Whiskeyjack-you could argue that

Spoiler

Hood killed him though couldn't you. And that would be an old power.

You're qualifier "that we have seen nothing new of" limits it to those who are only just introduced-those with no understanding of the new world.

Yes, they often get destroyed-however it is not a lack of power.

[Grief]

blackzoid, on Aug 14 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

Doesn't anybody think the time has come for both Malazan Marines and Karsa to eat some humble pie?
What is the point of reading any storyline with those characters, when you know they will win every confrontation. No matter how "overmatched" they are.
Where the hell are the anti-cusser tactics? Or weapons? Maybe pieces of the jade statues?

And we have had the old powers getting overconfident and taken out by the new powers for a good few books now.
What is the point of Erikson describing how powerful any new creature was in the old days, if they are destined to die at the hands of some new power.
Where is the suspense?

Not all the old powers-generally it is only those just introduced to the books who are taken out. Which seems a kind of easy way to emphasise that arc-introduce some old horror and have them aesily taken out.

[blackzoid]

Grief, on Aug 14 2009, 11:03 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Aug 14 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

Doesn't anybody think the time has come for both Malazan Marines and Karsa to eat some humble pie?
What is the point of reading any storyline with those characters, when you know they will win every confrontation. No matter how "overmatched" they are.
Where the hell are the anti-cusser tactics? Or weapons? Maybe pieces of the jade statues?

And we have had the old powers getting overconfident and taken out by the new powers for a good few books now.
What is the point of Erikson describing how powerful any new creature was in the old days, if they are destined to die at the hands of some new power.
Where is the suspense?

Not all the old powers-generally it is only those just introduced to the books who are taken out. Which seems a kind of easy way to emphasise that arc-introduce some old horror and have them aesily taken out.

Its no longer a new or novel narrative theme. Its being done. We get it, the old have gotten overconfident. Time to move on from that.
Or since the Malazan's have been around for 8-9 books(100ish years in Wu time), maybe they are no longer the "new" and should now be taken out by something newer to make the point in a fair and evenhanded manner.

[Icarium Kalam]

2. Why Trull Sengar the knight of shadow dies by the hand of most pointless character in the whole book? What the hell, I almost stopt reading at this point. Such a tragic and pointless death.





it took me awhile to start reading Toll the Hounds because I think I was in mourning.

[Ulrik]

Ad "SO MUCH GORE":

MBOF is about fun and dark sides of life´s spoon...

Im a half-archeologist and AFAIK Erikson is twice full arecho/ anthropo...its pretty much obvious from many themes.
I studied, found, touched, cleaned many skelets. Its strange to have in hands skull with hole in back where pickaxe took him and mashed its brain. Skulls split open by axe or sword to half, skulls with temples pierced by two arrows, one still stucked from inner side of cranuim. Its chilly and reminds that war is messy, filthy un-noble beast and its gore from heels to head.

No shiny breastplates, dying with brave words and death by being clearly shot in hearth. Its limbs cutting, eyes stabbing, brain splitting, blood coughing, bladder emptying...

and thats one of reasons why I love those books. Brukhelian got his intestines ripped off (and I LOVE that character), one of "so-brave-Bridgeburnes" unceremonially stab thru eye to brain and many other heroes just die like everybody other...bloodily and without mercy.

And thats also why Knight of Shadow got backstabbed by worthless rat. Such a tragic and pointless death. Yes, how real it is...

War sucks and SE knows it.

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 15 August 2009 - 06:48 PM

[Ayrin]

Aptorian, on Aug 14 2009, 05:58 PM, said:

If you recall the Marines/Sappers are always complaining they are running out. Mean while they've always stashed away a bundle of them for a rainy day. Sappers would rather die than waste their last cusser.

Usually they die with a bang, hugging that last cusser .

Well, I agree that the "something old and horrible crawls out of it's grave, gets hyped, gets whacked, gets killed"-storyline is getting a bit old.

Silchas vs cussers gave more or less the same "meh"-feeling; immense build up, then a big fizzle, but I can accept that someone going up against cussers for the first time usually gets his/her ass handed to him/her. Silchas is one of the few who have the chance to learn from that mistake .

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Obdigore, on Aug 14 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

]


Whiskeyjack, who was a sparring partner of Dassem, but never his equal, had Kallor, a nightmare of your common terrors, dead to rights with a lunge when his leg gave out.

Tecnically WJ went for the killing lunge after Kallor tripped. If he hadn't who knows how things could have turned. After all we had Korlat thinking "oh my god they have no chance against him" for all the fight.
But apart from that I concur that the old guys usually get beaten due to a lack of properly understanding the new powers

[redJAKO]

Of course, Iccarium awakened, a old power, is still unstoppable, scares the living hell out of everyone, including Mael, and wipes the floor with all things Snaps a hand out, smacks a Hound of Shadow (which always are underpowered against anything non-mortal it seems), destroys a few hundred Edur and a few warlocks in 1.2 sentences, nearly blows through Quick Ben, Knight of Shadow, etc.

WAR ICCY!

[arkane]

I just finished Reaper's Gale, so I jumped on the forum for answers/help/sympathy... Some beautiful things in this book, but also the death of Trull, which seems to be hitting me as hard as Coltaine did. I took a looonnng break after that, and I think I'll be taking a break now. It still surprises me how much these books affect me. Anyway, thanks to Aptorian for this:

"My copy of RG has a dent in the corner from where it hit the wall when I read the death of Trull.

As Erikson said, Trull had to die because his story was finished. This is not a book of happy endings. We're reading an ancient tragedy."

Just what I needed. Some humor, some understanding, and an explanation. Whew. Some of the other reminders of what these books ARE helped a lot, too. I don't so much crave happy endings as I do everything having a point, so I have to remember what it is I'm reading and why. Also, Icarium Kalam: "it took me awhile to start reading Toll the Hounds because I think I was in mourning." Glad it's not just me!!

The violence also is too much for me at times, but I understand and agree that it demonstrates the brutality of war and how it affects everyone (because even if we know it, it's usually glossed over).

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

arkane, on 20 January 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

I just finished Reaper's Gale, so I jumped on the forum for answers/help/sympathy... Some beautiful things in this book, but also the death of Trull, which seems to be hitting me as hard as Coltaine did. I took a looonnng break after that, and I think I'll be taking a break now. It still surprises me how much these books affect me. Anyway, thanks to Aptorian for this:

"My copy of RG has a dent in the corner from where it hit the wall when I read the death of Trull.

As Erikson said, Trull had to die because his story was finished. This is not a book of happy endings. We're reading an ancient tragedy."

Just what I needed. Some humor, some understanding, and an explanation. Whew. Some of the other reminders of what these books ARE helped a lot, too. I don't so much crave happy endings as I do everything having a point, so I have to remember what it is I'm reading and why. Also, Icarium Kalam: "it took me awhile to start reading Toll the Hounds because I think I was in mourning." Glad it's not just me!!

The violence also is too much for me at times, but I understand and agree that it demonstrates the brutality of war and how it affects everyone (because even if we know it, it's usually glossed over).

Good post, but I would comment that I don't think the violence is there to demonstrate the brutality of war. I think it is there to demonstrate the brutality of life, because these books encompass so much of the world that Erikson and ICE created. (Obviously war is a part of life though)

[Elephant Tamer]

An interesting part of the "Old" vs "New" struggle is the Holds vs the Deck, and the Errants refusal to simply die from obscurity. As has already been said, the old powers are usually quite strong in the terms of raw power, but find difficulty fitting into a world that has changed. Usually, the older powers that weren't locked up or held down seem to have a better chance of survival and acclimatization. I think i agree that main point is the need for change to find a place in the world.

[Tatterdemalion]

Hey gents.

Weighing in, a little. I found Reaper's Gale one of the most satisfying endings - and Trull is my favorite character, bar none. I like instances where 'the coolest' and 'most loved' characters can die. It adds a certain realism to the story - as if it is even out of the hands of the author. As though the author would say, "Look, I don't want him to die either, he's awesome, but that is simply what happens." You can't what happens. It's a history, and thus, makes sense that some things seem terribly unfair but... that was just what happened. I know Erikson could choose to change this, but if you're deep into your world, I like to believe it just unfurls in a way that MUST be, even if it's not the sweetest plum.

For my part, and I bet everyone and their dog on this forum has tried writing fantasy on their own, but I have written a fantasy screenplay. When I got to the end I just suddenly murdered two main characters who I really loved. It sucked. But DAMN did it work. Someone has to go. Your favorites can't ALL live. Otherwise your work is Robert Jordan!

As to the 'what's the point when you know the Malazan marines always win in the end' argument, eh - you may be right. But take note of author Frederick Forscythe, the author of numerous action mystery novels. He is famous for saying, "I have the formula for a best-seller" before writing 'The Day of the Jackal,' arguably his most popular work. Here was his story: A legendary super-assassin who covers his tracks flawlessly and is highly-trained in all aspects of being a hitman is hired to kill Charles de Guale in France. Now, we, the readers, KNOW Charles de Guale was NOT assassinated - so the Jackal CAN'T have succeeded! What Forscythe knew and demonstrated is the amazing mystery and suspense you could create with a foregone conclusion. What mattered about The Day of the Jackal wasn't whether the Jackal would kill de Gaule or not - we know he doesn't! - what mattered was how such an expert could possibly fail.

Erikson is similar. It's not about the fact that the marines come out on top. It's about HOW they come out on top.

[Grayghost]

Okay...lets take the Moranth Munitions, and Malazan tactics vs the Letheri/Edur from a military perspective.

First, you have 3 types of basic munitions:
Sharper: Basically the same as a modern Grenade
Burner: The equivelent of White Phosphorus...nasty stuff.
Cussar: Basically a block of C4 wraped in a shrapnel casing.

Two, you have a Malazan tactical superiority even though inferior numbers.

Covering what seemed to be the endless supply of munitions. I know from personal experience that a field Marine will lie his ass off as to the amount of ammo and explosives that he has on him...you can never have enough ammo. If I had 5 grenades left, I would say I was out and get 5 more. If I was down to 3 drums for my SAW (I had 1 my A gunner had 2) I would hide my A gunner and say I had one left and get 3 more drums. Sucked for my A gunner because he had to carry 4 while I carried 2, but hey, that's what A gunners are for.
And if I could get my hands on a claymore or a LAW...sweet. I guess my point is that for me the seemingly endless supply of munitions did not bother me as I knew it wasn't endless, and there are points when some of the Insurgent squads get very low on hardware.

The Malazan tactical advantage held as long as the Marines were able to maintain momentum and the element of suprise, not to mention the judicious use of the subtler forms of socery such as Mockra and Shadow, some death magic, and others in minor roles for reconassaince. As someone stated above, once the Edur went back to Tribal tactics, the tables started to turn on the Malazans and it got rather dicey.

Now...Elder gods or older powers getting thumped. Someone above made this point well so I wont dwell...but most times the Elder powers overestimated their own strengths and underestimated...badly at times...their foes.
This goes against the classic military axiom of never underestimate your opponent, and never assume your enemy will do exactly as you wish. The whole RedMask/Letheri conflict illustrated this point more than once...from both sides.

As to the rest of the complaints...they were pretty well covered by others.

[vbroskas]

I think for me, it wasn't so much that Trull died, but how he died. Come on, that was so weak. I get the whole irony he may have been going for, with having someone as cool and powerful as Trull being killed by a nobody, but I still dont think it worked. I think he took the easy way out on Trulls death. Bottom line it was lame. First time In this series I have been seriously disappointed.

Im just buying that some guy walking on sand was able to sneak up on him.

[worry]

Keep in mind: The Errant.

[Kanese S's]

Indeed, the Errant's nudge was just enough to keep a grief-stricken Trull from noticing.