[Crimsonblade]

I was just thinking of this while driving home awhile ago and believe it is appropriate for this book's forum. Anyway, why was there a big chaining for the CG? Couldn't they have just dumped him into an Azath House and be done with him? Or is he too powerful for that?

[HoosierDaddy]

No, the Crippled God was too powerful to be held by an Azath House. The Chaining decimated "his 'nascent' warren" and allowed what was left of him to be tied to Burn. Otherwise, it is strongly considered that the C.G., whose self being brought down from an alien universe, body being destroyed, and yet still surviving somehow was too powerful to be chained. Think, despite being considerably weakened, he is able to poison the warrens of K'rul and Burn at the same time.

The thought was briefly discussed between Paran & Nightchill in MoI about Rake or Draconus having Dragnipurred him, but due to the nature of Dragnipur and the nature of the Crippled God, the threat posed by placing the CG in Dragnipur itself was viewed as being to great.

Night Chill was of the belief that only the Elder Gods could adequately combat the threat of the Crippled God. Is that true? Who knows.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 07 August 2009 - 04:33 AM

[Crimsonblade]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 7 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

No, the Crippled God was too powerful to be held by an Azath House. The Chaining decimated "his 'nascent' warren" and allowed what was left of him to be tied to Burn. Otherwise, it is strongly considered that the C.G., whose self being brought down from an alien universe, body being destroyed, and yet still surviving somehow was too powerful to be chained. Think, despite being considerably weakened, he is able to poison the warrens of K'rul and Burn at the same time.

The thought was briefly discussed between Paran & Nightchill in MoI about Rake or Draconus having Dragnipurred him, but due to the nature of Dragnipur and the nature of the Crippled God, the threat posed by placing the CG in Dragnipur itself was viewed as being to great.

Night Chill was of the belief that only the Elder Gods could adequately combat the threat of the Crippled God. Is that true? Who knows.

Thanks for the excellent explanation.

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, I'll give you 2 mitigating statements.

1. I am currently in a re-read of MoI (probably around the 4th or 5th I think). This information is obviously extremely fresh. However,

2. The universe expands as the series grows on, and countering, differing, supporting, information becomes very much more so available, and thus if you ask this question after reading subsequent books, the answer is going to become, probably, ever more doubtful. The last book in the series is titled The Crippled God, I imagine the ultimate solution is 7 books away from the activities of MoI.

[Aptorian]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 7 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

No, the Crippled God was too powerful to be held by an Azath House. The Chaining decimated "his 'nascent' warren" and allowed what was left of him to be tied to Burn. Otherwise, it is strongly considered that the C.G., whose self being brought down from an alien universe, body being destroyed, and yet still surviving somehow was too powerful to be chained. Think, despite being considerably weakened, he is able to poison the warrens of K'rul and Burn at the same time.

I'm not quite sure you are right. Is this just deduction on your part or do you remember some talk of this? Because I think I could argue to the contrary.

Obviously, he has not been thrown into an Azath... but why not? More curious, from GOTM we are told that an Azath may emerge where it feels a need for its presence, like it hungers and detects massive power.

So why didn't an Azath arise and eat the CG when he landed? He landed in chunks I believe. So, multiple Azaths could have arose and attempted to consume him. If they were feared too weak to take him, the EGs and other players could have aided the Azath, we're relatively sure Gothos was already walking them at this point.

Perhaps it is true that even in his earliest most smashed up form, he was "un-azathable", I don't know.

But if the Azath had been able to take him, the CG would not be breaking free. The Azath siphon their prisoners strength, we learn this in NOK...or DG... I think. The CG would grow weaker and the Azath would grow stronger. The CG would probably be rendered unconscious at some point.

Spoiler

You know, considering this, It could have been a clever story point to have Silchas Ruin cheat the Azath in RG. Taking the Scabby finnest and Kettle and [some made up third powerful ingredient] and used them to make a Super Azath to eat the CG

[lobo the wolfman]

Maybe his alien nature prevented any of the Azath from being able to trap him. As the Azath are a part of the Malazan universe might the CG end up being poison to them as well? Whose to say that things where the same where the CG came from, as in warrens and Houses and stuff? and since the CG is alien, and the Azath are part of the system of warrens and the Deck of Dragons, maybe putting him in one or many Azath houses could have been as worse as Dragnipuring him.

[Aptorian]

In DG when Fidler, Iccy and co walk the inside of the Azath, they observe dragons disappearing through a huge tiled floor. It represents all the Azath that exist. thousands and thousands of azath all across the universe. I am pretty sure you can assume that the Azath are in the CG world as well.

I don't really think you can do much to an Azath once you're inside it.

[lobo the wolfman]

Wasn't that just all the Azath across the Realms, as in all the Warrens and not other universes? Why would the CG keep being called 'alien' by many characters if he came from a place that was similar to Wu? No I think the reason the Elder Gods had to chain the CG in the first place was because his nature was so different to anything else they had seen.

[MTS]

Well lobo, mainly because no one we know besides possibly the EG and ST/Cot have an experience of anything outside Wu and the Warrens, and all everyone else knows is he came from a different realm, hence "alien".

As to the Azath not claiming him, it could be that the Azath was unwilling to take on such a burden. Or that, scattered as he was at the Fall, each individual part was not powerful enough in itself to necessitate the Azath stepping in, but enough of a threat to the Ascendant powers to do something about it.

Or it could be that the nature of the CG's power was anathema to the Azath.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 August 2009 - 08:53 AM

[Aptorian]

It's suggested somewhere that Draconus, maybe merely as an aspect, exists in other places outside the universe of wu. He sounded like he knew of the CGs world.

[MTS]

My point was, the only people who call the CG "alien" are those who have no experience of anything outside Wu and the Warrens. I doubt Draconus would refer to the CG as "alien".

I'm almost certain Draconus and the other EG have existed outside Wu and the Warrens. The KCCM prevented them from entering Wu back in the day, after all.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 August 2009 - 08:56 AM

[lobo the wolfman]

Apt said that the Azath where in many universes, and since the Azath are part of the Warrens, in theory anywhere there is a Azath there are Warrens right? If that is true then any gods, any where in the universe would be part of the same system, eg warrens, houses, holds whatever, and thus their nature would be the same or close to what the gods on Wu are like.

But the CG has been stated as being alien, which means his nature is completely different to any else anyone on Wu has seen or dealt with, so he might not be a part of the system of Warrens where he came from.

So that point i was trying to make was that due to the CG not having any thing to do with the Warrens in his original universe, he wouldn't be able to be held by the Azath, because he is by nature different to what they are.


But it's just my pet theory anyway, since we don't really know as yet.

Aptorian, on Aug 7 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

It's suggested somewhere that Draconus, maybe merely as an aspect, exists in other places outside the universe of wu. He sounded like he knew of the CGs world.

As you are so fond as saying, quotes or it didn't happen.

At Mappo, being outside of Wu doesn't mean in a different universe all together, they could have been hiding in Mother Dark, SD or Chaos for all we know.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 07 August 2009 - 09:14 AM

[MTS]

No, the Azath are not part of the Warrens. They are totally separate. The Warrens are of K'rul's making; that would imply that K'rul had a part in the making of the Azath. Not so. The Azath predate the Warrens, even the Holds.

As to the EG existence theory, I remember the insinuation hinted at by Apt. No idea when it was or who said it though. Might have been in Cotillion's conversation with Edgewalker about elemental forces.

[lobo the wolfman]

Do we know the Azath predated the Holds, how about the old system of Wandering? and do we know for sure they are they are separate? why would they be. When Silverfox and Paran are talking in MOI she mentions that the Deck of Dragons and the Houses of the Azath are connected and that there could have been older Decks as well which are part of the Holds.

Yes the Warrens are of K'ruls making but the Holds aren't, and the Azath where connected to the Holds, so why not the Warrens?

[Aptorian]

The prologue of RCG suggests to me that the Azath were around in the age of wandering.

But anyway, the discussion is getting a bit advanced for the MOI forum.

[MTS]

The Deck is related to the Azath in the way the Houses mirror those elements of the Azath, such as the Deadhouse (or so Silverfox theorises). I'm less sure of the Deck's relation to the Warrens, but what I am fairly sure of is that this relation does not make the Azath part of the Warrens. They merely share a common ground, and that is a relation to the elemental forces that make up the realms i.e. death, light, dark, life etc.

I think we get a glimpse of the Azath's beginnings in

Spoiler

the Casting of the Tiles by Feather Witch in MT, where she witnesses the Errant creating the world.

Whether that's reliable or not is debatable, however.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 August 2009 - 09:50 AM

[Ulrik]

My theory is that Azath was simply afraid of "crossing roots" with CG. In DG was everyone in fear that Icarium can in his RAGE destroy whole Azath, only way to absorb him was when he was unconscious. And CG is probably higher level, compared even to "half-god" Icarium.

[Salt-Man Z]

The Tiste (and the Andii in particular) are often referred to as being "alien" in appearance. It just means they're not indigenous to Wu.

[MTS]

Ulrik, on Aug 7 2009, 09:28 PM, said:

My theory is that Azath was simply afraid of "crossing roots" with CG. In DG was everyone in fear that Icarium can in his RAGE destroy whole Azath, only way to absorb him was when he was unconscious. And CG is probably higher level, compared even to "half-god" Icarium.

That seems to be the general consensus. The Azath was unable to take the CG, he was unable to be killed, or sent back, thus the necessity of the Chaining.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 07 August 2009 - 03:16 PM

[Grief]

Spoiler

From what we have seen the azath is connected to many things. If the CG can poison warrens, why not the azath too? And if he poisoned one azath, it could spread. If the azath die, simultaneously-think of everything that gets out. Putting him in an azath would not be a good move, imo.