[Hocknose]

Twice Osric is described as having tusks (Bantam Press paperback, pages 21 & 742). This seems starnge to me as no other Tiste character (including Soletaken Elient) have ever been described like that. Only races I can think of are Jaghut/Jhag and Trell.

Also in Shadow Keep, Kyle thinks that Osric is the Magus from the battle on the spur with the Crimson Guard. So was that Osric? And was he defeated by Cowl and the Veils and hid in Kyles sword? That bit confused me as well.

This post has been edited by Hocknose: 14 July 2009 - 06:33 PM

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I think it's just a reference to his draconic/eleint blood. We know he can veer into a dragon, perhaps he's slightly more...developed towards that form naturally. I wouldnt take it to mean he's a jaghut or a sabre toothed tiger or anything.

He wasnt defeated by Cowl and the mages, he'd just arisen from a dormant state and put himself into Kyle's sword, in order that he might be carried to safety without the fight. I believe he also intended to be taken into shadow, but how the hell he'd know Kyle would end up there I couldnt say.

This post has been edited by Thelomen Toblerone: 14 July 2009 - 06:49 PM

[Aptorian]

Osserc/Liossercals role in the book makes no sense, and unless the Elder Gods involvement is somehow tighed in with a later Esslemont book, it makes very little sense. Besides some urge on the authors side to have a random god being badass in his book.

It has been a mystery since we first began to hear of Osserc, whether he was a Tiste Ascendant or an Elder God that became a champion/protector/worshipped by the Liosan people.

Personally I've always been of the impression that Osserc is an "Original Elder God" in the same lineage of K'rull, Mael, etc. Elemental in origin probably.

His form, with the tusks, is like Maels in MT, some kind of "true form", primitive.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Trouble is, RotCG is a bit of a mish-mash of inconsistencies/abberations. I'm sure I don't need to mention Ryllandaras...so it's hard to read anything into Osserc's description and role in RotCG for certain.

[Wampyry]

Agree with Apt, Osserc is probably an elder God or, at least, one powerful God. He wasn't the slightest bit fazed when he faced Traveller, Cotillion and Shadowthrone in Shadowland. That type of confidence comes from power or stupidity and I don't believe Osserc is stupid. As for hiding in the sword, think that was only a prop by ICE, Osserc had to be obligated to Kyle so he can pay his debt by giving Kyle the sword. Without the sword Kyle is just an ordinary soldier - so far expect we will learn more about Kyle in later books

[Urizen]

Wampyry, on Jul 15 2009, 03:26 AM, said:

Agree with Apt, Osserc is probably an elder God or, at least, one powerful God. He wasn't the slightest bit fazed when he faced Traveller, Cotillion and Shadowthrone in Shadowland. That type of confidence comes from power or stupidity and I don't believe Osserc is stupid.

It could be plain overconfidence, much the way Draconus dismisses Rake as an upstart in the ROTCG prolouge. And we know how that went for Draconus.....

[Silencer]

Actually, I'm pretty certain Rake calls Osserc an 'idiot' in MT.

And we know they've been duelling each other for ages.

But I don't think Osserc was unconcerned - he merely hinted that, for Shadowthrone, the loss of a few more Hounds in the battle with him would be bad in the long run. Not that he'd win.

[Dolorous Menhir]

This is another example of RotCG being inconsistent with the main series. I would trust the established image of Osserc over what is presented here.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Actually that scene when Osserc is in shadowkeep facing down ST, Cotillion, and Dassem pissed me off a little bit. He seemed pretty dismissive of them and thought he would win in a fight it seemed to me. I guess he's been traveling and sleeping and dreaming a lot lately, so maybe he didn't fully know who they were, but I think they would pwn him if it came to a fight. In GotM Rake tells ST that he doesn't want to fight him because it would be a close thing, especially if the Rope was around somewhere. That was just on a plain outside Darujhistan, not in the source of ST and Cotillions power, while they are being flanked with someone just as powerful as them. I don't think there's a being alive that those three couldn't fight and win (except for the CG I guess).

[Excellence]

Ok, the first book was the first book. Steven was starting out. Later books found his feel and voice for characters. You could say while we later found out how vastly old and powerful Rake was by book 3 and taking on Kilmandaros herself, Shadowthrone was new, and he may not have gotten his feel of him yet. And hence, had some doubt.

Shadowthrone was the slain hounds were over a thousand years old. It was sort of inferred in book 8 they were almost primordial in age. So things can get changed around a bit.

Now, we know, he would have given Shadowthrone a good kicking.

Because now we know, not in book 1, Shadowthrone is dangerous, but he's not milleniums old like everyone else, or has his own personal keyed warren to draw from. Hood's Autobot toy, the poor thing's hold on Shadow Throne is tenuous at best; he commands the denizens of Shadowlands but they may not always answer to his call. Further more, he could NOT take on Osserc in his own keep and had to bluff his threat. The Wind Bag was in a class above him.

[Grief]

Yeah, i'm in agreement with Excellence here. Rake not wishing to contend with ST and Cotillion is, imo, a Gotmism. Rake is underpowered in that Book compared to later ones.

Also, Osserc is the son of father light-so not a first degree Elder Elemental force. He is mentioned as the Liosan equivalent of Rake. On the other hand, it's also mentioned that while Rake denies Godhood, Osric failed to do so. So, while he could've become a god by worship, I don't believe he is an elemental force.

[amphibian]

Excellence, on 06 September 2009 - 01:16 PM, said:

Shadowthrone was the slain hounds were over a thousand years old. It was sort of inferred in book 8 they were almost primordial in age. So things can get changed around a bit.

There's a bit of mystery around the status of being a Hound, as several books have mentioned that there have been litters of Hound puppies, replacements made (albeit oddly-colored and temporary) and possible candidates going around with ancient ascendants (Gareth). So it's possible that not all of the Hounds are the original ones, but enough of the pack still remembers Tulas Shorn. That might be something worth paying attention to.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Excellence, on 06 September 2009 - 01:16 PM, said:

Ok, the first book was the first book. Steven was starting out. Later books found his feel and voice for characters. You could say while we later found out how vastly old and powerful Rake was by book 3 and taking on Kilmandaros herself, Shadowthrone was new, and he may not have gotten his feel of him yet. And hence, had some doubt.

Shadowthrone was the slain hounds were over a thousand years old. It was sort of inferred in book 8 they were almost primordial in age. So things can get changed around a bit.

Now, we know, he would have given Shadowthrone a good kicking.

Because now we know, not in book 1, Shadowthrone is dangerous, but he's not milleniums old like everyone else, or has his own personal keyed warren to draw from. Hood's Autobot toy, the poor thing's hold on Shadow Throne is tenuous at best; he commands the denizens of Shadowlands but they may not always answer to his call. Further more, he could NOT take on Osserc in his own keep and had to bluff his threat. The Wind Bag was in a class above him.

I'm not saying that Rake wouldn't have defeated ST in GotM, I was just using it as a reference point. I don't believe that Osserc could easily handle the three beings with him in Shadowkeep, and that is not even considering the Hounds or anything else showing up. I mean, they are all gods, and two were in their own domain. The fact that Osserc is Elder isn't enough to convince me he could take them. I don't mean to turn this into a who'd win thread, just saying that after reading TtH I have a new respect for how powerful Traveler is, and flanked by the gods of shadowhouse in their keep I don't think Osserc had a chance.

[Pilgrim]

The main thing that confused me about Osseric in RotCG was the seeming inconsistency with his presentation in House of Chains (or was it Bonehunters?)....serious need for re-read. Aside from the appearance factor, I'm not really understanding how he was being imprisoned on the spur when we know of his part played in an earlier action in which he seemed to have complete freedom of movement. I'm not getting specific here as to not spoiler and don't really know how to put something in spoilers... but I'm referring to I believe the end or epilogue of House of Chains.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Pilgrim, on 08 September 2009 - 10:18 AM, said:

The main thing that confused me about Osseric in RotCG was the seeming inconsistency with his presentation in House of Chains (or was it Bonehunters?)....serious need for re-read. Aside from the appearance factor, I'm not really understanding how he was being imprisoned on the spur when we know of his part played in an earlier action in which he seemed to have complete freedom of movement. I'm not getting specific here as to not spoiler and don't really know how to put something in spoilers... but I'm referring to I believe the end or epilogue of House of Chains.

My guess would be "the timeline is not important..." lol. But if you were trying to make it work, I guess you could say that since he was stuck in a memory of Raraku in HoC, the memory could have ended and then he went to go take a nap in the spur. Or you could say maybe the memory was still going on, and really only his essence was in Raraku observing it, and his body was resting in the spur dreaming while that warlock siphoned off his powers.

[The Deragoth]

Regarding the tusks I would go with one of two thoughts. First, simply that it is somehow a manifestation of his soletaken form. To be honest I can't remember everything from either instance, but both Spite in BH and Rake in TtH are described as having elements of their draconic forms while remaining somewhat humanoid. Slightly offtopic: If this state is common or represents control based on proficiency it might help explain Ryllanderas' seemingly inconsistent form.

Second is that it's his natural form if he is indeed an elemental or primordial elder god. There is definitely evidence supporting that possibility. I really can't remember the book or the instance exactly, but Osserc appears to be old enough to be recognized as a dangerous force by Draconus while Draconus still felt Rake was an upstart. While we really don't know much about the origins of the universe or the Tiste, the mythologies do seem fairly consistent in making the Andii older than the Liosan, and certainly not any younger. In this situation Osserc being an Elder God would certainly explain Draconus' position.

As for his power it would seem he is comparable to Rake in overall power although several comments from Gothos or Mael seem to imply that Rake tended to prove himself the more effective individual.

We know from several elder characters and even L'oric that Osserc is not an easy being to get along with and that he is normally either being supremely arrogant or aloof to the point where he seems to be.

While I don't quite understand his role in RotCG, I don't think it conflicts all that much with his appearance earlier. Both Osserc himself and the Queen of Dreams seem to indicate that he has spent a great deal of time sleeping. While perhaps not as potent as Burn's slumbering he appears to be quite busy during his sleep. If I remember correctly he is researching something, the KCCM maybe, but I don't know just how his dreaming world works, whether it actually involves a form of time travel or if he is simply working with a tangible "echo" of sorts.

His interaction with Cots, ST and Traveller seems fairly consistent on several levels. First he is Osserc, someone we are told several times is quite difficult to get along with and self centered. He is also either an elder god, or just very very old. In either case most examples of either of these possibilities frequently appear extremely overconfident, even when it seems they should be able to roughly judge the power of their opposition. I don't know how long Osserc his been "gone", but if what we are lead to believe is true and that Cots, ST and Traveller are all new players in the grand scheme of things then he may simply be ignorant of their true potency.

That said, I'm not sure how far the ignorance thing can go, when Icarium, with chronic memory loss, is still able to determine that Traveller was possibly powerful enough to kill him, by simply visiting Drift Avalii sometime after Traveller left it in BH.

Edit: Seems I was a little late on a couple of those points. Also, I've seen a reference or two to spoilers, but I would think anything except DoD and MAYBE TtH would be fair game in this forum.

This post has been edited by The Deragoth: 09 September 2009 - 02:48 AM

[Aptorian]

Icarium has no idea of how powerful he is. He has memory loss. Could Dassem kill him? Anything is possible. Could Icarium make Dassem in to pink mist at the first sight of aggression from the Lord of Tragedy? It is possible.

As for Liossercals apperance in RCG, I think we learn something in DOD that explains his look.

Spoiler

The Elder Gods are able to shift forms. They can take on the appearance of other creatures, borrow characteristics and assume the form of their legends in the mythologies of the mortals. It is why Killymandaros looks so weird in the prologue of RG and Male is all blue and scaly.

[Silencer]

Apt, that's not strictly true. Icarium instantly replies to Veed's query regarding Traveller, "the one I [Icarium] would have faced" - Veed asks if Traveller was strong enough to unleash Icarium, and the Jhag replies "Powerful enough, perhaps, to kill me".

[Aptorian]

Perhaps. No matter, I don't think Iccy knows what he's done or what he is capable off. In the theme of the books, and the type of character Iccy is, if he'd suddenly gotten total recall I think the memory of his acts of death and destruction would have broken the Jhag.

Anyway, I don't doubt that Dassem could kill Icarium, he is a very dangerous man/ascendant, but when it comes to threat assessment I would put my money on the jhag.

[The Deragoth]

Aptorian, on 09 September 2009 - 03:52 PM, said:

Perhaps. No matter, I don't think Iccy knows what he's done or what he is capable off. In the theme of the books, and the type of character Iccy is, if he'd suddenly gotten total recall I think the memory of his acts of death and destruction would have broken the Jhag.

Anyway, I don't doubt that Dassem could kill Icarium, he is a very dangerous man/ascendant, but when it comes to threat assessment I would put my money on the jhag.

I think this stemmed from my post and point had less to do with Icarium's power and more to to do with the fact that despite having little to no memory of his past acts he still appears to have the ability to judge Dassem's strength. Any comparison he made was likely simply a very rough extrapolation of his own abilities, but the more important part was that he could detect Dassem's power, while Osserc doesn't appear to have been able to do the same thing while in close proximity.

I guess one explanation is simply that Dassem's power was unleashed during combat, but veiled otherwise. Several characters including Bugg, Dassem and Rake seem to be able to hide their power or unveil it almost in aura form. In such a case, the explanation for Osserc's actions is simply ignorance.