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Pride Week It's okay to be gay

#1 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 07:41 PM

This is a nice article - it seems to be fairly well accepted in the field that Schubert was gay (Schubert was one of the composers I studied in Vienna), and Haydn is another name that is offered up by some people (though less believable and therefore not in this article).


http://www.examiner.com/x-373-SF-Classical...Pride-Week-2009


Posted Image

Scott Foglesong Go to Scott's Home Page
SF Classical Music Examiner






There have been a lot of composers writing a lot of music over the years, and it's pretty safe to assume that not all of them have been exclusively heterosexual. In honor of the current Gay Pride Week here in San Francisco, I offer a brief look at composers and their gender preferences.

Note: this is an updated version of an article from last year.

On the surface it would appear that gay composers have proliferated dramatically during the 20th century. That has little to do with actual gender preference per se, and a lot to do with public attitudes towards homosexuality. For the most part, composers in earlier eras couldn't be 'out' in the modern sense — well, not if they wanted to work, and in some cases, not if they wanted to retain their freedom. So they kept mum.

Consider Renaissance composer Nicolas Gombert: quite likely gay, but the evidence pointing in that direction is, alas, that he was busted for pederasty. Such is the nature of things when only criminal records survive.

But in the 20th century, composers could start letting it speak its name. Thus Leonard Bernstein (bisexual at least, although openly gay after his divorce), Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Gian-Carlo Menotti, Virgil Thomson, David Diamond, Lou Harrison, Henry Cowell, Hans Werner Henze, John Cage, Benjamin Britten, Michael Tippet, Marc Blitzstein, John Corigliano, Harry Partch, Ned Rorem, Michael Tippet, Francis Poulenc, Libby Larsen, Conrad Susa, David Conte, and Thomas Adès among others. Some of these are very big-time, household-name composers indeed (Copland and Britten) whereas other ones aren't quite as well known to the general public.

Check out Wikipedia's list of LGBT composers.

I should mention that the situation wasn't quite as lopsided as the above list might make it seem: major twentieth century figures such as Elliot Carter, Charles Ives, Roger Sessions, George Gershwin, Arnold Schoenberg, Alban Berg, Anton Webern, and Igor Stravinsky were/are all heterosexual. (One hears some rumors about Gershwin, and sometimes Stravinsky.) Pierre Boulez's gender orientation remains a matter for speculation.

Move back into previous centuries, and the known list of gay composers thins out dramatically. Peter Ilyich Tchaikovsky is one of the few A-list composers who was definitely, unquestionably gay, in the same sense that Johann Sebastian Bach, with his 20-plus children and two happy marriages, was definitely, unquestionably heterosexual. But Tchaikovsky is a rarity in that regard.

Something I find intriguing are those A-list composers of the past who were possibly gay, at least based on whatever evidence has managed to survive.

Posted ImageGeorge Frideric Handel is a strong candidate, at least as a closet case. He never married; only rumors survive of a mysterious relationship with a woman very early in his career, and then nothing more. His sexuality was a popular gossip item during his own lifetime, in fact. There is a story (probably apocryphal) that King George II, suspicious of Handel's bachelor status, asked him bluntly whether or not he liked women; Handel is supposed to have said he had no time for anything except his music. Ellen T. Harris's book "Handel as Orpheus" goes into the issue in some detail, as well as the relation of creativity to sexuality.

Franz Schubert's gender preference has been a hot topic of discussion since Maynard Solomon's 1989 article "Franz Schubert and the Peacocks of Benvenuto Cellini." Solomon took a good look at Schubert's (short) life, and deduced that there was a likelihood that Schubert was sexually active (carelessly so, it would appear) within a gay subculture in early 19th-century Vienna. The evidence is only circumstantial, but Solomon definitely put forward a compelling argument.

Posted ImageAs a result, before too long common wisdom had it that Schubert was gay, a state of affairs which musicologist Rita Steblin found unacceptable. Her rebuttal to Solomon's article set off a chain reaction of disputation and argument, even to the point of the subject's virtually hijacking a session of the American Musicological Society. The jury is still out, and may never render a final verdict.

Perhaps a larger question to ask is: does it matter? Personally I don't think so. Sometimes commentators look for "gay" aspects within a composer's work — but that seems dreadfully one-sided. (Why not look for "heterosexual" elements in, say, Mozart?) If we're interested in the details of a composer's life, then certainly gender preference is part of that interest. But as gender preference having influence over the actual music a composer creates — even if that music sets a gay-themed text — I remain highly skeptical.

___________________________________________________

I should jump in here and point out that most of the 20th century composers who make my ears hurt are in the heterosexual category.

I put this here because I don't necessarily expect the possible discussion on it to remain serious or on-topic.

Also, that incident in the American Musicological Society can be seen as contemporary with the rift in the Southern Baptist Convention over the issue of Biblical literalism, if not as huge (this was in America's cocaine, hair band, and Reagan-Bush Sr. days).

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#2 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 07:49 PM

This might be a bit serious for the Inn, and it's not a reflection on Terez, it is an interesting article.

I'm just curious as to why the fuck I should care, indeed why any of us should care, whether George Gershwin liked to suck the odd cock whilst composing Rhapsody in Blue or if Peter Grimes took a bit longer to write because Britten was punching donuts when he should have been proof reading the score.

The authour even says so at the end.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 26 June 2009 - 07:49 PM

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#3 User is offline   Slum 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 07:50 PM

Meh, who cares if he's gay? Gay people, probably...

Link a youtube to one of his compositions. I'd like to hear.
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#4 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:01 PM

People who take the subject of homosexuality seriously care about these articles.

For gay people its the equivellant of all those articles and films about black people who did great things. It's a reminder that all the hateful bigotry in the media about gays is false, etc.

For the haters it's an eye opener. An example of gay people who did more than just trying to corrupt good christian god fearing people and play pin the tail all night long.

For the average reader it's just a curious article, one in a dozen you find in what ever magazine you may be reading.

But yeah, probably more of a subject for the DB.

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This post has been edited by Aptorian: 26 June 2009 - 08:03 PM

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#5 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:04 PM

You might as well look for homosexual themes in Newton's Laws of Motion (the jury's out on the issue, but he probably was...). Or ask whether Socrates' homosexuality influenced his philosophy.

The whole issue is such an irrelevance beyond the mere knowing that such-and-such an historical figure was gay. It doesn't really change the importance of their work, or the enjoyment to be gained from it.

Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 26 June 2009 - 08:13 PM

If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#6 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:12 PM

View PostCougar, on Jun 26 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

This might be a bit serious for the Inn, and it's not a reflection on Terez, it is an interesting article.

I'm just curious as to why the fuck I should care, indeed why any of us should care, whether George Gershwin liked to suck the odd cock whilst composing Rhapsody in Blue or if Peter Grimes took a bit longer to write because Britten was punching donuts when he should have been proof reading the score.

The authour even says so at the end.

Yeah, well - the author wrote an article, and posted it, so obviously he thinks there's a point in saying something about it every now and then.

As to why we should care about the dead guys - often when scholars have tried to reconstruct the lives of composers from the fragments of information that we have about them, convoluted stories have been concocted in order to draw attention away from certain inconvenient details, or to justify them in some way that has little to do with the truth. I think that, in the US at least, the academia still struggles with some of those convoluted stories about the lives of certain composers. But, that's more in my field that in most of you guys so probably probably only find that aspect of it remotely interesting at best.

For the rest (the Pride Week thing)...as an outsider looking in, this is how I see it: in a lot of places (in the US, at least...I can only really speak for here), gay and lesbian people are still, to a large extent, expected to keep quiet about their private lives, while colleagues can bring their significant others to social functions and talk about them at length. It's expected to talk about the people in your life that are important to you, but where I come from, most gay folks still can't. Lots of people travel cross-country to celebrate Pride Week in a place away from home, and hope that their picture doesn't end up on the news somewhere, lol.

So, I see Pride Week as an opportunity for those of us who don't judge people negatively because of their sexual preference to...celebrate with the GLBT community? Maybe try to make up for the people in their lives that want them to keep quiet about it? :D

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#7 User is offline   Slum 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:14 PM

I actually quite love me some gay singer/songwriters.
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This post has been edited by Slumgullion Spitteler: 26 June 2009 - 08:14 PM

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#8 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:16 PM

Elton and Freddie, imo, should do far more to break down these kind of barriers than these dusty old sods. I do, however, quite enjoy the classical.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#9 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:20 PM

View PostSlumgullion Spitteler, on Jun 26 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

Link a youtube to one of his compositions. I'd like to hear.

The finale to Winterreise, Der Doppelgänger. Or is that too depressing?

HD said:

Elton and Freddie, imo, should do far more to break down these kind of barriers than these dusty old sods. I do, however, quite enjoy the classical.

I have seen Elton live, with Billy Joel. That was awesome. Elton was getting old even then, though, so Billy had to sing Goodbye Yellow Brick Road cause Elton couldn't. Freddie was even awesomer, but I haven't seen him live.

You know, even my dad will admit to liking Elton and Freddie, but he is one of those people that expects gay people to remain on the fringes of society or keep quiet about it.

This post has been edited by Terez: 26 June 2009 - 08:23 PM

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#10 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:26 PM

View PostAptorian, on Jun 26 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

People who take the subject of homosexuality seriously care about these articles.

For gay people its the equivellant of all those articles and films about black people who did great things. It's a reminder that all the hateful bigotry in the media about gays is false, etc.

For the haters it's an eye opener. An example of gay people who did more than just trying to corrupt good christian god fearing people and play pin the tail all night long.

For the average reader it's just a curious article, one in a dozen you find in what ever magazine you may be reading.

But yeah, probably more of a subject for the DB.

Attachment 1236297165134.jpg

I'd like to see you try and make a point without a "humerous" (read: not) image, one day...
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#11 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:29 PM

View Postcaladanbrood, on Jun 26 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

I'd like to see you try and make a point without a "humerous" (read: not) image, one day...

It made me giggle. Nice post, too.

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#12 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:31 PM

Well I suppose looking at sexulaity as a motivation or influence on art is as valid as any kind of cultural history. God knows I've just spent weeks reading articles which discuss homosexual place and space etc and some of that stuff is tenuous as fuck.

I suppose what concerns me more is that with historical perspectives on art or science or anything where people have left us a legacy of quality output rather than just plain old history, I'd rather the sexuality, activities, biases, habits or preferences of people didn't cloud the issue of their talent and/or achievement.

I really don't care if someone was a pederast, there's nothing to be done about it now is there. Just have to enjoy what they did.

Incidentally I'm watching the Specials at Glastonbury at the moment and they are so good. I've no idea if any of them are gay though.
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#13 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:36 PM

View Postcaladanbrood, on Jun 26 2009, 10:26 PM, said:

I'd like to see you try and make a point without a "humerous" (read: not) image, one day...


Awhh, bwoodus is annoyed

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#14 User is offline   stone monkey 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:42 PM

I would have thought that knowing the gender preference of the artist makes more of a difference in the visual or literary arts. As far as I'm aware (although I'm sure you'll be able to correct me on this, Terez) there are no homoerotic chord progressions or changes of key; whereas overt (and often covert, if you know where to look) homoeroticism, particularly in the visual arts, is fairly easy to spot. The choice of subject for a musical piece might show some sort of bias depending on the sexuality of the composer, I suppose. St Sebastian would be something of a dead giveaway, I should think; that said, I don't know how modern that particular emphasis is. One wonders how much work has been done on the subject.

You do point out that the controversy dates from the 80s; which, as we all probably know, is practically prehistory as far as Queer Studies is concerned.

I think we can all get on board with Pride Week. But do remember that some of us don't make as big a deal about sexuality as you do primarily because we live in places (namely certain parts of Europe) where it's far less of a deal for people to come out than it is in your part of the US. Decrying us because we make less of a fuss seems somewhat harsh; like it's our fault that a number of the battles that have been won here haven't been won in your part of the world.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell

#15 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:45 PM

View PostCougar, on Jun 26 2009, 03:31 PM, said:

Well I suppose looking at sexulaity as a motivation or influence on art is as valid as any kind of cultural history. God knows I've just spent weeks reading articles which discuss homosexual place and space etc and some of that stuff is tenuous as fuck.

Some of it is pretty tenuous, but there are a pile of interesting observations to be made, and considered. For Schubert, it explains a lot of why he led the sort of life that he did, but I don't know that anyone has tried to say that anything about his music (the music itself, anyway) reflects his homosexuality in any way.

Cougar said:

I suppose what concerns me more is that with historical perspectives on art or science or anything where people have left us a legacy of quality output rather than just plain old history, I'd rather the sexuality, activities, biases, habits or preferences of people didn't cloud the issue of their talent and/or achievement.

Agreed, but keeping quiet about these things really shouldn't be necessary in order to keep them from clouding the issue of their talent.

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#16 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:45 PM

I'm pretty sure that the G #, A7, E minor progression is decidedly homosexual. Or really happy. Could be either one, actually.
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#17 User is offline   Terez 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:47 PM

View Poststone monkey, on Jun 26 2009, 03:42 PM, said:

I think we can all get on board with Pride Week. But do remember that some of us don't make as big a deal about sexuality as you do primarily because we live in places (namely certain parts of Europe) where it's far less of a deal for people to come out than it is in your part of the US. Decrying us because we make less of a fuss seems somewhat harsh; like it's our fault that a number of the battles that have been won here haven't been won in your part of the world.

I wasn't 'decrying' anyone?

:D

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#18 User is offline   Cougar 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 08:57 PM

View PostTerez, on Jun 26 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

... but I don't know that anyone has tried to say that anything about his music (the music itself, anyway) reflects his homosexuality in any way.


Apart from the controversial and seldom heard 'Cottaging Symphony in C'

Fuck me now they are playing 'Ghost Town' some of the kids in the crowd look like they are having a real music epiphany.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 26 June 2009 - 08:57 PM

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#19 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 26 June 2009 - 09:58 PM

I don't know anything about music, but I like Flight of the Bumblebee.

I'm not sure why it really matters if a composer, or the person next to me, or the guy handing me fries, or the guy checking my credit is gay/straight/man/woman/tranny/cougar...

Well maybe that last one... THEY ARE ALL COUGAR! HES STALKING ME.
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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:33 AM

It seems like historians, composers, etc. etc. favorite game is "I bet this historical figure was gay."

Or that they were all Cougar...
<!--quoteo(post=462161:date=Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM:name=Aptorian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=462161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God damn. Mighty drunk. Must ... what is the english movement movement movement for drunk... with out you seemimg drunk?

bla bla bla

Peopleare harrasing me... grrrrrh.

Also people with big noses aren't jews, they're just french

EDIT: We has editted so mucj that5 we're not quite sure... also, leave britney alone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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