[amphibian]

Obdigore, on Jul 24 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

First - WJ and Dujek know it is Tays. Silverfox 'recognizes him', but dosen't know he is Tays, until she is walking towards him to confront him and gets ambushed by Kallor.

Silverfox knows right away. She is moving over to confront him at that point, but she always knew Artanthos was a mask. Whether Whiskeyjack knew is really not clear in MOI, but I do believe Dujek was privy to everything and thus so was Whiskeyjack.

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Sixth - If it wasn't for the condors and k'ell hunters, which whiskeyjack/dujek didn't think they would need to worry about or didn't know about, inserting the BB's into the keep to take the Seer would have worked. It would have ended the war much faster.

They knew about the condors and undead lizards. Dujek and Whiskeyjack knew how dangerous they were and still believed the costs would be worth the potential payoffs, but I doubt anyone could have predicted what Itkovian did. The well-meaning idiot saved the T'lan, but caused the death of thousands at the same time.

My theory as to the biggest payoff is that they prevented Brood from using his hammer. There's a few lines here and there about the Malazans being particularly wary of it, but there's definitely other viable theories.

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Seventh - Moranth Munitions, dropped from Quorls, onto massed enemy placements is an amazing strategy I didn't even think about until they were doing it. Did you also notice that the Host is the only army in the world that has heavy infantry charge, hurl javelins from 12 paces away, draw swords, and continue the charge?

Specific methods of attacking aren't actually so important here. The overall strategy is at question - not the actual combat itself.

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Conclusion: Dujek and Whiskeyjack are amazing officers. Their Host, while still brittle from the failure at Pale, was one of the best fighting forces in the world. Their operation would have been a resounding sucess if their intelligence (not of the two, what they were told) was better, or if their allies had done their parts.

As an aside - when have two seperate military forces ever shared all information? Especially two that were at war just months before? Especially when the other one is already keeping secrets, and they have been blunt about it?

The Malazans were keeping secrets too. I concede that they were of the the noble, grandiose ambition type secrets, but it was a mutual thing going on between allies.

On the whole, I agree with your assessment of the capabilities, but disagree slightly with your logic.

Great job in this thread though to all people who've contributed.

[coltainereborn]

even WJ and Dujek weren't convinced it was the best strategy, but they were under orders from the empress to hurry it up, to free those armies up for the uprising at home, or the Koreli campaigns. So their options were limited.

[Throne of War]

Every great commander eventually loses be it Caesar, or Joey from up the block you thought was so tough. With enough time everyone stumbles into a Waterloo. Is that to say that Napoleon was a "terrible general"? Unfortunately, some generals are only remembered by their greatest f@#k ups. I think Dujek and Jack's careers speak for themselves, homes.

[foolio]

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[First - WJ and Dujek know it is Tays. Silverfox 'recognizes him', but dosen't know he is Tays, until she is walking towards him to confront him and gets ambushed by Kallor.

I am pretty sure she knew from the very beginning, which is wht its kind of dumb that she didnt immediately kill him, or at least out him in public if she was unable to kill him. Both Tattersail and Nightchill had reasons to want him dead. She mentally laughs at him using the name Artanthos,

Spoiler

a name anyone who read NOK

knows he had used in the past. She knew it was Tayshrenn from the first time she saw him.

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Every great commander eventually loses be it Caesar,

well except Ceasar, Subedei(of ghengis Khans host), Scipio Africanus, Nathan Bedford Forrest, etc, etc. But I understand your point.

This post has been edited by foolio: 29 July 2009 - 12:54 PM

[amphibian]

foolio, on Jul 29 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

Subedei(of ghengis Khans host)

Subodei (looots of different name spellings out there) lost a few times.

One of the things Erikson did with the long struggle between Rake/Brood/Crimson Guard and the Malazans is show how both sides met with defeat several times but remained coherent and learned from defeat. Subodei definitely did that, and since Genghis was so trusting and loyal to his generals, the generals were not only able to recover from defeat, but learn from it and implement new strategies.

Falling down isn't the important thing - getting back up stronger is.

[foolio]

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Subodei (looots of different name spellings out there) lost a few times.

I am not familiar with any of his losses. And I am certainly not being argumentative, but if you could refer me to some info on a loss I would be interested.

On a side note , there was another thread long ago, where people had pointed out how , I think ,

Spoiler

Amerons

name was spelled differently in a couple of places and some people thought it was sloppy writing. I said it didnt bother me at all, because you can run to your local library and see many different spellings for historical figures, my example was Genghis Khan, but Subodei would have been a great example as well.

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Falling down isn't the important thing - getting back up stronger is.

Amen to that

This post has been edited by foolio: 30 July 2009 - 02:31 PM

[Obdigore]

foolio, on Jul 29 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

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[First - WJ and Dujek know it is Tays. Silverfox 'recognizes him', but dosen't know he is Tays, until she is walking towards him to confront him and gets ambushed by Kallor.

I am pretty sure she knew from the very beginning, which is wht its kind of dumb that she didnt immediately kill him, or at least out him in public if she was unable to kill him. Both Tattersail and Nightchill had reasons to want him dead. She mentally laughs at him using the name Artanthos,

Spoiler

a name anyone who read NOK

knows he had used in the past. She knew it was Tayshrenn from the first time she saw him.

No, she didn't. She said he was familiar but didn't know just who he was. She was on her way to confront him after figuring it out when Kallor poped in.

[foolio]

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No, she didn't. She said he was familiar but didn't know just who he was. She was on her way to confront him after figuring it out when Kallor poped in.

She does recognize him , laughs at his use of Artanthos and even thinks she never really knew which side he was on.


Silver fox explains to korlat and myhbre that they can trust Whiskey jack, Dujek, and then when asked about trusting Artanthos "I am uncertain of him, I think I always have been..." (MOI P70) I read that to mean she doesnt know rather to trust him. Not that she is uncertain who he is.
After Dujeck introduces the group to his people
silver fox "Artanthos" silver fox quietly murmured. "He's not used that name in a long time. Nor is he what he appears." (MOI p71)
I think that kind of closes the door on this. She knew it was Tayshrenn.

This post has been edited by foolio: 30 July 2009 - 05:22 PM

[Obdigore]

Yes, afterwords.

When she firsts meets him, she isn't sure who he is. Once she figures it out, she races to confront him and gets attacked by Kallor.

[foolio]

sorry , just edited my post with quotes , please see above quotes... or below



Silver fox explains to korlat and myhbre that they can trust Whiskey jack, Dujek, and then when asked about trusting Artanthos "I am uncertain of him, I think I always have been..." (MOI P70) I read that to mean she doesnt know rather to trust him. Not that she is uncertain who he is.
After Dujeck introduces the group to his people
silver fox "Artanthos" silver fox quietly murmured. "He's not used that name in a long time. Nor is he what he appears." (MOI p71)
I think that kind of closes the door on this. She knew it was Tayshrenn.

This post has been edited by foolio: 30 July 2009 - 05:24 PM

[All4Rake]

I just finished MoI and have to admit that I agree with OP. Coral campaign was an example of a military action with no sound planning, no communication, no intelligence. Hardly a work of the military genius we all should believe Dujek was.

It reminds me a battle at Crecy where French commanders sent their tired after the march regiments one at a time just to be slaughtered by English army that held a better position.

Obdigore, on 24 July 2009 - 09:42 PM, said:

Secondly - Why split up the Host? It is a malazan tactic, and the tactic of many armies around the world, seem to be in control, and strike from where it is least expected. Those two tenents are huge in warfare.

Divided army can de defeated one part at a time. It is ever a dangerous tactic.

Splitting up the army has to have a tactical purpose. Every part has to have a specific task to perform with an effective communication between the parts ensured. None of it was made in Coral. They were just throwing people at the enemy who held the better defensive position.

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Thirdly - The Malazans had no idea what Brood and Rake had planned. Do you really think that there was a lot of communication going on there? For all they knew, after they lined up outside the city, all the Tiste and Barghast magic users would be defending themselves and their people, and the malazans would have a repeat of Pale.

Then why to form an alliance at all if not for the coordinated engagement? They had the plan they all agreed on. Malazans changed this plan without Brood's consent so they are responsible for the lack of communication.

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Fourth - The Malazans have been traditionally able to count upon one another. They counted about Silverfox(tattersail) to kill any remaining demons, while they handled the human advesaries.

While that was a part of their original plan when the forces approached Coral they had no news from Silverfox and couldn't continue counting on her support.

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Sixth - If it wasn't for the condors and k'ell hunters, which whiskeyjack/dujek didn't think they would need to worry about or didn't know about, inserting the BB's into the keep to take the Seer would have worked. It would have ended the war much faster.

This is just the thing, they didn't have enough intelligence and their communication was impaired by condors. The more reasons to proceed with caution and keep the forces together.

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Seventh - Moranth Munitions, dropped from Quorls, onto massed enemy placements is an amazing strategy I didn't even think about until they were doing it. Did you also notice that the Host is the only army in the world that has heavy infantry charge, hurl javelins from 12 paces away, draw swords, and continue the charge?

That was awesome.

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Conclusion: Dujek and Whiskeyjack are amazing officers. Their Host, while still brittle from the failure at Pale, was one of the best fighting forces in the world. Their operation would have been a resounding sucess if their intelligence (not of the two, what they were told) was better, or if their allies had done their parts.

I can only take yours (an author's) word on it because their assault on Coral was a tactical disaster. Once again, the lack of intelligence (as knowledge about an enemy) is the reason for caution, not for hurry.

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As an aside - when have two seperate military forces ever shared all information? Especially two that were at war just months before? Especially when the other one is already keeping secrets, and they have been blunt about it?

I can actually see the point of Brood's refusing to march with WJ. Their approved plan was changed by Dujek with no Brood's consent so Brood had no obligations to comply with such changes. He was put in a difficult situation in which he had a very little choice and was right to suspect double-play.



Besides, Brood was ready to use his hammer when he thought the battle was lost. If the siege/storm proceeded as planned the outlook would be much better and he wouldn't have to use his hammer. So, in fact, WJ/DJ actions made the usage of Brood's weapon more probable.

[Lousy]

coltainereborn, on 25 July 2009 - 08:29 PM, said:

even WJ and Dujek weren't convinced it was the best strategy, but they were under orders from the empress to hurry it up, to free those armies up for the uprising at home, or the Koreli campaigns. So their options were limited.

And the Empress lost those armies in the process ... how many Malazans survived Coral? Less that a thousand? Have to go w/ Gruntle's sentiments here, screw soldiering or being in an army, someone higher up the chain of command is most assuredly going to get ur azzz killed...

[Braden]

Several pointers to go over from my point of view.



I agree that Dujek certainly did know that Artanthos was Tayschrenn, WJ also did but when this was made clear to him isn’t known and is “off camera”. I say this because Dujek was aware of the real happenings behind Pale, WJ wasn’t, hence its apparent that Dujek has more direct information from the Empress than WJ even though its shown to us that Lassem put WJ in the position he is now (rank wise) to act with a freer hand in other matters. Its discussed that WJ should be in Dujeks position and visa versa.



Splitting forces is a well known tactic and one Napoleon used to great effect very often. The risks are outweighed by the ability to move faster (less logistic train), appear in two places a one time – the enemy often does NOT know your full disposition or numbers meaning one “large mass” of troops is often mistaken for the primary force.



Brood, Rake etc WANT the Malazans to take Coral, I para-phrase as no book to hand “what better to replace the chaos than Malazan law”, however, they are not prepared to allow their allies to actually KNOW this. Secrets are kept from the best allies even in the most dire of times.



The Berghast tribes didn’t really want to fight at Coral at all! They had done what they started out to do, release their spirit gods, they decided to march on Coral of course with good reason but it wasn’t their primary reason thus had not the urgency.



The loss of the T’lan Imass and Ay was unforeseen by all parties – WJ, Dujek & Brood etc – Did the Chained God have a direct hand in this by manipulating behind the scenes? Nothing is directly stated but Kallor only accepts his position on the condition that the Chained God gives him the window that occurs…so the inference is that somehow, subtly, he has arranged this as no other opportunity arises and without it Kallor would have withheld his support and remained with Brood for the time being.



Thus 800 KCCM’s had no opposition other than the main army. THIS was the real factor in dulling the victory, the tactics used by all commanders was sound in my opinion as they HAD a plan to deal with the main threat at Coral (Seer included via QB and Paran), that fact that Rake had his own plan to finish the battle fast and without direct conflict with the KCCM (Moon Spawn crushing the citadel), was not linked to Laseems plan to use the Seer to heal the rift…hence plans had to be moved forward once Moon Span and Rake re-appeared…making it more costly in lives again.



Clearly Brood and Rake had no intention in the end of facing down the KCCM and other forces in Coral…just march up, smash with Moon Spawn and march in to chop up the bits left.



The Malazans on the other hand HAD to take the city by storm as they HAD to have the Seer and the Matron alive. The matter that it appears that Ascendants such as Rake and Brood DIDN’T either know of the link between Seer/Matron and Rift or didn’t care is perhaps indicative of an ignorance of normal mortal concerns from “immortals”.

[waylander001]

Braden, on 12 July 2010 - 11:50 AM, said:

The Malazans on the other hand HAD to take the city by storm as they HAD to have the Seer and the Matron alive. The matter that it appears that Ascendants such as Rake and Brood DIDN’T either know of the link between Seer/Matron and Rift or didn’t care is perhaps indicative of an ignorance of normal mortal concerns from “immortals”.

Braden is correct in that WJ and Dujek were forced to hurry their campaign as they were going along with Quick Bens plan to get the Seer and heal the rift. They were playing for much larger stakes than simply winning a campaign and taking a city. If they felt they could not trust their allies (Rake - who was entirely inaccessible anyway, and Brood - Temperamental to say the least) to go along with their plan of appealing to the seer through urging him to save his sister who was still trapped in the rent (very risky you'll admit) then they simply had to pre-empt on their own with a counter-strike to steal him off and offer their redemption.

The fact that they succeeded must count for something - Terrible Generals? Please

This post has been edited by waylander001: 13 July 2010 - 02:02 PM

[Juss]

okay, endless debate but I have to add something

FIRST IN, LAST OUT!

[Juss]

Came across this the other night,

'The miracle of hindsight is how it transforms
great military geniuses of the past into incompetent
idiots, and incompetent idiots of the present into
great military geniuses. There is the door, and be
sure to take all your pompous second-guessing
delusions with you...'


Emperor Kellanved
On the occasion of the conquest of
Falari's Grand Council (the Trial of Crust)

Thought it would be fitting...

[Lousy]

Braden, on 12 July 2010 - 11:50 AM, said:

The loss of the T'lan Imass and Ay was unforeseen by all parties – WJ, Dujek & Brood etc – Did the Chained God have a direct hand in this by manipulating behind the scenes? Nothing is directly stated but Kallor only accepts his position on the condition that the Chained God gives him the window that occurs…so the inference is that somehow, subtly, he has arranged this as no other opportunity arises and without it Kallor would have withheld his support and remained with Brood for the time being.

I rather doubt it, but who knows at this point (end of MOI). How could anyone have foreseen Itkovian taking the Imass out of the picture, and the Ay deserting Silverfox. The Chained God has had plenty of time to hone his devious skills but I suspect this was just random events (of course, ones that fit in w/ the theme of redemption).

As to the cost of the 'victory' at Coral ... I would still have argued for the Malazans to not throw away so many of their own lives and implement Double Secret Rebellion!!!

[Sinisdar Toste]

here's how i see it

the seer was a rot, a cancer on the east coast of genebackis. it had to be cut out.

paran and QB were the tip, the bridgeburners the scalpel, the fingers the the 2nd army; the hand was dujek and wj and the arm was laseen

but there was another hand and it held a rock named moons spawn and burns hammer; the fingers, hand and arm were caladan and rake and the t'lan imass, who for a bunch of undead killers seemed strangely peaceful that day.

the old and the new put to the same purpose and it would have worked pretty damn well if korlat, orfantal, the t'lan imass had been in the fight

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 15 July 2010 - 05:04 AM

[amphibian]

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 July 2010 - 05:03 AM, said:

but there was another hand and it held a rock named moons spawn and burns hammer; the fingers, hand and arm were caladan and rake and the t'lan imass, who for a bunch of undead killers seemed strangely peaceful that day.

I would bet that there are less than a hundred people on Wu that actually want Brood to use the hammer. Almost all of them are probably insane or anti-sentient life.

[Sinisdar Toste]

amphibian, on 15 July 2010 - 06:31 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 July 2010 - 05:03 AM, said:

but there was another hand and it held a rock named moons spawn and burns hammer; the fingers, hand and arm were caladan and rake and the t'lan imass, who for a bunch of undead killers seemed strangely peaceful that day.

I would bet that there are less than a hundred people on Wu that actually want Brood to use the hammer. Almost all of them are probably insane or anti-sentient life.

be that as it may, at one point that thing was poised to lay the ultimate smackdown