[Fist Gamet]

Ok, here is the prologue to my current WIP. Feel free to give it a read and give me your thoughts / critique / impressions, good and bad (though bad is often more helpful )

Attached File(s)

•  PROLOGUE.doc (90.5K)
  Number of downloads: 137

[Grimjust Bearegular]

A bit long, might take me some time to get back to you. But I will!

[Sixty]

I'm reading through it at the moment, but I might not have a chance to finish it. Some preliminary comments, though:

The battle scene is a little...chaotic. It seems like events just sort of happen, you know? I don't have a very comprehensive view of exactly what's going on in the first couple pages. The adjectives feel somewhat excessive in places IMO. I think that could be because it's all in long chunks instead of short paragraphs in which actions come and go.
Not really sure how to best explain it.
The way I write, when I have an intense action scene in which the character is participating, the sentences and paragraphs become concise. Their thoughts are rather...fickle? in that situation. Always flitting between one and event and another, I suppose. Whereas they could also be detached from the scene, in which the narration is similarly detached.
I'm not entirely sure what your intent is with the Sergat character, but he appears to be suffering as he fights, suggesting he's a little bewildered, which makes the prose more bewildered. But the narration itself feels a little detached. (That's something I'm working on improving on myself )

But that's just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Overall I like it--I think you're trying to make a crazy epic battle and that's definitely the impression I'm getting.

edit: I've gotten through the first "scene" of sorts. I like the ending much more than the beginning. I'll probably read the rest when I get home.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 17 June 2009 - 02:19 PM

[Yellow]

Gamet, I'm going to read it this weekend, so expect some feedback soonish

[Fist Gamet]

Sixty, on Jun 17 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

I'm reading through it at the moment, but I might not have a chance to finish it. Some preliminary comments, though:

The battle scene is a little...chaotic. It seems like events just sort of happen, you know? I don't have a very comprehensive view of exactly what's going on in the first couple pages. The adjectives feel somewhat excessive in places IMO. I think that could be because it's all in long chunks instead of short paragraphs in which actions come and go.
Not really sure how to best explain it.
The way I write, when I have an intense action scene in which the character is participating, the sentences and paragraphs become concise. Their thoughts are rather...fickle? in that situation. Always flitting between one and event and another, I suppose. Whereas they could also be detached from the scene, in which the narration is similarly detached.
I'm not entirely sure what your intent is with the Sergat character, but he appears to be suffering as he fights, suggesting he's a little bewildered, which makes the prose more bewildered. But the narration itself feels a little detached. (That's something I'm working on improving on myself )

But that's just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Overall I like it--I think you're trying to make a crazy epic battle and that's definitely the impression I'm getting.

edit: I've gotten through the first "scene" of sorts. I like the ending much more than the beginning. I'll probably read the rest when I get home.

Many thanks

Chaos and bewilderment from Sergat's POV is what I am trying to express here (he took a wicked knock on the head) I hope the impression is that you are simply flung right into the middle of the battle and have to run to catch up.
I do have a habit of adding a few too many adjectives at times, and I am working on that, but my style is very descriptive - just feels the most natural way for me to write. I have avoided the use of shorter, concise paragraphs and sentences at this point because Sergat is an observer and not in the immediate fight at this point. The sense of chaos and detachment is hopefully to emphasise how events are beyond his control now (he is a General, after all )

If the prose fits with the way Sergat feels then good, although from what you say I am not sure if it is a good idea, even if I did get the desired effect.

I understand what you mean about trying to compose battle scenes in a way where the actual style and composition bring the action to life, making it immediate and frenetic, and this is something I have done with the many, various battles in the book (later) where the characters themselves are in the fight for their lives.

Thanks again and feel free to give me more!! Bring it on!!

[Yellow]

Ok, read the piece. Wow, Gamet, this is a long prologue Can I ask, how long is the whole book (or how long will it be once finished?). Are the chapters longer than this prologue?

Not that there's anything wrong with long stories, I just want to get a feel for what this is.

You have a solid approach to scene-setting. Nothing is particularly throw-away or pointless, and this gives the writing a hefty feel. It reminds me quite a lot of Robert Jordan. That isn't meant in a negative way, as I like Jordan's books for the "high chant" style of narration and story telling, which is what this has. It makes it feel almost mythic, because you take the time to give details and it lends an air of history to it.

I love the Egyptian feel to the first couple of sections (at least, they felt Egyptian to me), and I'm also a big fan of the numerous mentions of gods and other races, etc etc. It paints a rich picture of the world and its history. The only time I think you didn't manage to hit the nail with this kind of stuff was when you describe Sergat's fight with the "inhuman warrior". It has tusks, but as far as I recall, that's the only bit of description you give it, which was a bit of a shame considering the rest of the detail.

The only real problem I have with the thing is that there are multiple sections in here that don't seem to fit together at all, and some of them don't really feel like prologue sections. I personally think you should choose one of them and go with that. Since the Sergat section seems to be about 1000 years before the others (unless I'm reading too much into the dates at the beginning of each section), I would go with that. It tells a complete story in itself, which is what most of the other sections seem to lack.

Bit more detail:

1) Sergat's section is very portentous, and it's clear that a major event in history is being described (one note: when he cuts off the king's head, I found it a little unbelievable that all of the entourage would just accept this rather than knee-jerking and attacking Sergat). I would like this as a prologue.

2) The Xaric stuff was a little confusing, but still I enjoyed it. Not sure what the whole thing with looking into the dark corner of the room was about, but it was well written, especially with the slitted eyes thing. The next bit, where Xaric is talking to his generals, is also interesting and the most prologue-ish out of those scenes.

3) Jarek. Tbh, I wasn't as big a fan of these sections as the earlier ones. Does Jarek play a big part in the book? I ask because the bit with the garrison where he fights the soldier and the bit with Brog seemed to do nothing more than give the reader a picture of Jarek as a character. These are long scenes, but they don't seem necessary where they are. If Jarek plays a big part, I would leave these two scenes until the main body of the book. The bit with the woman, on the other hand, where it turns out Najion is gone... this bit has all the hallmarks of a great prologue for me. A bit of mystery, a bit of "what the fuck is going on?" and a great ending to the scene.

4) Elias. Once again, I'm not sure how this really fits into this prologue. Similarly to most of the Jarek scenes, I would put this later in the book. Chapter one, maybe, but not prologue.

On the whole, this is all very well written (as I've come to expect from you), I just wonder if some of it should be later on. Obviously you know the thing better than me, so what's your take on that?

I will read on if you post more

[Fist Gamet]

But Jarek is one of my favourite characters...

Many thanks. Being rather fed up with medieval-based worlds, I have gone for a more ancient world feel, and I am glad it worked. It is far more interesting for me, I feel, to integrate the ancient world with one that also has flint-lock technology and several different types of magic (as well as psychic abilities)

I do have a problem with what to remove from the prologue, because the opening scene is crucial and does link to the next with Xaric (although the link is very subtle I hope it is not too subtle)
This sets the tale in its historic context.And yes, it is centuries before the actual story.

Jarek is an important character and his part is to introduce the fall of Najion which is really the event to kickstart the story in the modern age. I didn't want to just throw that in there without giving some background on Jarek as I don't think it would work. I am considering moving this but still kinda feel that the end of it (where he meets the woman and she tells him about Najion) is just too important to move. Not sure.
That sets the national-level context.

Elias is to introduce the city of Lazius (which is central to the entire story) and the current, tumultuous state of affairs. The idea there is to set the tale in its local context.

All the chapters will be around the same length, and I have written about 200 pages so far. It is hard to say how long it will end up but it will be a fair chunk of recycled forest.

Thanks for taking the time, mate

[Yellow]

Fist Gamet, on Jun 22 2009, 05:03 PM, said:

But Jarek is one of my favourite characters...

Hah! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Jarek is boring or anything, just that the lengthy scenes he has here should probably be left until the main body of the work (imo, of course).

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Many thanks. Being rather fed up with medieval-based worlds, I have gone for a more ancient world feel, and I am glad it worked. It is far more interesting for me, I feel, to integrate the ancient world with one that also has flint-lock technology and several different types of magic (as well as psychic abilities)

From what I've read, it should be an interesting system you've got going.

Quote

I do have a problem with what to remove from the prologue, because the opening scene is crucial and does link to the next with Xaric (although the link is very subtle I hope it is not too subtle)
This sets the tale in its historic context.And yes, it is centuries before the actual story.

Jarek is an important character and his part is to introduce the fall of Najion which is really the event to kickstart the story in the modern age. I didn't want to just throw that in there without giving some background on Jarek as I don't think it would work. I am considering moving this but still kinda feel that the end of it (where he meets the woman and she tells him about Najion) is just too important to move. Not sure.
That sets the national-level context.

I would give it a try, and see how it feels. You would probably have to tweak some of the dialogue in that scene, because it refers to stuff we've already seen, but for me I think it would work on its own. If you think it definitely has to be preceded by the background stuff, then fair enough.

Quote

Elias is to introduce the city of Lazius (which is central to the entire story) and the current, tumultuous state of affairs. The idea there is to set the tale in its local context.

All the chapters will be around the same length, and I have written about 200 pages so far. It is hard to say how long it will end up but it will be a fair chunk of recycled forest.

Thanks for taking the time, mate

No worries I agree with you on what you say is essential for scene-setting for the larger story etc, I just think it can do all of that equally as well in chapter one as in the prologue. Maybe keep the Sergat section as prologue, and the rest as chapter one. That's my gut feeling, based on having only read this portion so far.

[Starnberg Reloaded]

I thought the attention to detail was excellent. The battle scene had some nice touches like when Sergat was checking out where the king was. There was a lot going on between the lines when Sergat killed the king. The bodyguards didn't react in the normal way and there's someting weird about Sergat cos the Merlin type guy couldn't read his mind.
'Shall we send these fuckers back to the abyss.' Liked that.
Not sure whether they did send the fuckers back to the abyss. Is that to do with when Jarek finds out that the place he is headed to was wiped out. Not sure who Xeric is but obviously he was on the battlefield that day. The Xeric scenes kinda washed over me but the description of the fort in the Jarek scene was very good, and the description of the mysterious woman he meet was very convincing. I'm gonna have to read it a few times, maybe it'll become clearer after that.

[Fist Gamet]

Thanks for having a read, Starnberg. The three scenes are connected, but not so directly. Yellow had it when he noticed the dates as the opening scene is centuries before the next two. The first is linked to the second, and the second to the third, but not so much the first to the third - he he, is that makes any sense.

I moved Jarek out of the prologue to see how the story changed, and it actually gave me a very neat idea about re-structuring the physical layout of the story. Basically I will break it into several parts, with each one starting with a kind-of mini-prologue, something pertinent. Jarek's scene will be the mini-prologue of either part two or three. It also solves the problem of multiple PoV's as I have decided on a rather large cast of characters. Now I can assign certain characters to certain parts and run a series of parts alongside one another.
Hope it works. Might be crap but I will wait and see.

You are spot on about the reasons why the guards didn't cut down Sergat as I felt the reasons were there between the lines.

PS I loved writing that scene with Jarek and the woman because it was one of those moments I did not plan. I had no idea there was even going to be a woman there until I started to write about her, and then I did not know what was going to happen between them. Don't know if you guys ever get that, but it is one of the great joys of writing, for me. It is as though the scene takes on a life of its own and the story, at that moment, writes itself.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Yellow]

Fist Gamet, on Jun 28 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

I moved Jarek out of the prologue to see how the story changed, and it actually gave me a very neat idea about re-structuring the physical layout of the story. Basically I will break it into several parts, with each one starting with a kind-of mini-prologue, something pertinent. Jarek's scene will be the mini-prologue of either part two or three. It also solves the problem of multiple PoV's as I have decided on a rather large cast of characters. Now I can assign certain characters to certain parts and run a series of parts alongside one another.
Hope it works. Might be crap but I will wait and see.

Gamet, am I right in thinking you mean having the book split up into large chunks of only one POV (e.g. part 1 = Jarek, part 2 = whoever, part 3 = ....)? By coincidence I just posted in the other thread about this. Personally, I wouldn't like a book split up like this. Large sections of one POV tend to bore me. Just saying.

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You are spot on about the reasons why the guards didn't cut down Sergat as I felt the reasons were there between the lines.

Just wanted to be clear with my point up there somewhere. It was clear why they didn't kill Sergat (the reader was told why), it just seemed a little unrealistic--their king was just murdered in front of them. I think their natural reaction would be to fight back. But they didn't, they just kind of watched, until finally the thing about not being able to read his mind became clear. I don't think that sat quite right.

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PS I loved writing that scene with Jarek and the woman because it was one of those moments I did not plan. I had no idea there was even going to be a woman there until I started to write about her, and then I did not know what was going to happen between them. Don't know if you guys ever get that, but it is one of the great joys of writing, for me. It is as though the scene takes on a life of its own and the story, at that moment, writes itself.

Yup

[Fist Gamet]

No, Yellow, I don't intend to split it like that. What I mean is that if I have, say ten character PoV to tell the whole story, I wasn't comfortable with the reader getting chapter one on Jarek (for example) and then not seeing him again until chapter eleven. If I bring it in earlier it means another of my characters must wait even longer! I believe that if the gap between chapters is too great it ruins the story and continuity.
What I propose to do is take perhaps 4 or 5 characters and write a part from their PoV, which might be 12 or 13 chapters long. In part two I would take 3 different characters and write from their perspectives. This would be the larger portion of Part Two, but I would also continue with my characters from Part 1, albeit with less pen time. I would solve this problem by having the stories of the various characters intertwine, with many of them actually meeting.
Part three would be the final drawing together of the story, heading towards a climax. I might well add in another character at this point if it benefits the story, or maybe not.

That's a rough take on the idea. I definitely want and need to tell the story from 7, 8 or 9 PoV, and this might be a good way to do it.

Anyhoo, I have attached chapter three of the story (No, I haven't put in Ch one or Ch two, and you don't need to have read them to understand this one) and I would really like opinions on this one because I really need to make this chapter work well.



NOTE How the hell can the Prologue have 42 downloads?

Attached File(s)

•  Chapter_Three.doc (76.5K)
  Number of downloads: 49

This post has been edited by Fist Gamet: 30 June 2009 - 12:48 PM

[Sixty]

Reading it atm, comments as I write...

The modifiers are sticking out to me, but that could just because I'm going on a crusade against them in my own WIP

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Kalenius laughed softly, wiped the wine from his lips and neatly trimmed beard, “So you do remember.”

I don't see the verb here; alternatively, you could replace the comma with a period. You do this a few times, and it irks me.

A couple grammar errors here and there, primarily with commas/punctuation. Namely with the use of commas when a semicolon is more appropriate.
And particularly:

Quote

Herot let it pass, yawned long and hard. The march had not been particularly difficult, the Vakhurian Plains were relatively flat and the 3rd was well supplied. Skirmishes were reported all the time but the horsemen didn’t get beyond the Sworn Warriors. Herot had no idea if it was for want of trying. A fight was coming though, Herot could feel it, had been there enough times before.

Again, grammar-nazi here. And the last sentence there is a little confusing.

At the end of the first section with Herot...and the dialogue is a little confusing. I think all the references to gods & inside jokes gets rather bewildering; would the first 2 chapters better acquaint the reader with the world's pantheon?

I'm not a fan of starting sentences with ellipses.

And I'm tired enough that my vision's getting blurry (contacts), so I'm going to save the last half or so for tomorrow (or the day after, depending).

I stopped after the meeting with Oneru and Herot thinks he's out of his mind. I like it so far. Certainly intriguing--is Oneru legitimately insane, or does he have some crazy ass plan up his sleeve? etc.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 01 July 2009 - 12:35 AM

[Yellow]

Downloaded it, will have a read once I've read sixty's chapter 2 (sorry guys, work is kicking my arse at the moment). Hopefully later this week for both.

[Fist Gamet]

Yeah, you guys got me all worried about posting up too much work so I am going to email chapter one to you (and two later if you are interested) as this will make the pantheon etc clearer.

[Sixty]

Okay; I've read through the rest of your WIP. A lot of my gripes are the same, so I won't repeat myself. On to the good stuff:

Herot strikes me as the loyal soldier sort of guy, but I don't have much more of a read on him.

I really think you've got the grittiness down with the soldiers' circumstances. It feels like they're fucked and struggling in the midst of their troubles. The sheer scale of the battle, I think, is pretty strongly emphasized, which is good. And then the terror when they realize that the Bear clan... I like it.

The banter is nice, helps pace the chapter. I didn't find myself laughing out loud, but a little mental chuckle here and there, yes. Then again, I rarely laugh out loud when it comes to books...

Otherwise I think the dialogue fits your setting very well. A couple little bits sound a little awkward (like the aphorism Herot uses when rallying his men at the end) but overall I like it.

I'm getting the impression Oneru has something crazy up his sleeve, and I'm looking forward to seeing it (if you decide to send us chapter 4).

Go ahead and email me chapter one, though. Also, do you happen to have a blurb of sorts prepared? I think it'd help with comprehension and all.

[Yellow]

Got the email.... damn, I need to get some reading done Comments soon.

By the way, Gamet. I remember reading a prologue of yours from about three or four years ago. I can't remember the details but I think a soldier was attacked by beasties. What happened to that? Did you finish it or decide to go with your new idea?

This post has been edited by Yellow: 01 July 2009 - 05:02 PM

[Tarcanus]

I'm tagging this for when I have time to sit down and give it a line-by-line.


One thing, though, after reading some of the others' comments on your prologue, is that a prologue is rarely necessary and many people skip over them when reading a novel - I'm sure most of us malazites read them, but from what I've gathered from the writing forum I frequent, that's not always the case.

Your chapter one should start where the main characters' lives change and the plot starts. If anything in the prologue fits that description, then you need to make them the first chapters of the novel and take them out of the prologue. I'll be sure to comment on what I see when I read through it.




EDIT-----


I have attached what I critiqued of your Prologue, Gamet. Unfortunately, I could only get to page two before stopping.

A few things:

- You use WAY too many adjectives. Good thing: I didn't notice superfluous use of adverbs. What I noticed about your over-description is that you needed to start throwing way too many commas into the fold in order to make all of your descriptions make sense. This leads to choppy reading that doesn't flow well for the reader and sentences that the reader must struggle through the try and grasp the desired meaning.

- You did some telling, which isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time, but when it comes to tell the reader a character's emotions, as in here: "His voice was heavy with malice and frustration" it becomes a no-no. Show us this malice and frustration through action, please. I crossed out a good bit of your telling along with your unneeded adjectives.

- Because of your love of description, your sentences often became unwieldy and many bordered on being run-ons. I fixed a couple of those to how I would like to read it. Hopefully you think it flows better and can then look through the rest of your work to trim down your prose.

- I found an instance of 'purple' writing in your first two pages. I described what that is in my crit.

- You have a habit of repeating words. 'Blazed' and 'ruin' come to mind, and I definitely remember 'ruined' being a major offender.

- I highlighted the word 'like' in green because I thought maybe you would go simile crazy. I caught three in the first 2 pages. I'm not a good enough writer yet to tell you if that is good or bad. Just try to use vivid images instead and use obvious simile only when it's poignant.


All of that said, I think if you trim the fat from your work, it will start to shine. I'd be glad to give a crit another go once it's been trimmed down and edited.

And as I always have to do after a crit, I apologize if I come off as harsh. Whenever I get around to posting more of my work, I welcome anyone to be as mean to me.

Attached File(s)

•  Prologue_Crit.doc (34K)
  Number of downloads: 20

This post has been edited by Tarcanus: 02 July 2009 - 01:23 AM

[Yellow]

Tarcanus, on Jul 1 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

I'm tagging this for when I have time to sit down and give it a line-by-line.


One thing, though, after reading some of the others' comments on your prologue, is that a prologue is rarely necessary and many people skip over them when reading a novel - I'm sure most of us malazites read them, but from what I've gathered from the writing forum I frequent, that's not always the case.

Are you talking about Absolute Write by any chance?

[Tarcanus]

Yellow, on Jul 2 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

Tarcanus, on Jul 1 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

I'm tagging this for when I have time to sit down and give it a line-by-line.


One thing, though, after reading some of the others' comments on your prologue, is that a prologue is rarely necessary and many people skip over them when reading a novel - I'm sure most of us malazites read them, but from what I've gathered from the writing forum I frequent, that's not always the case.

Are you talking about Absolute Write by any chance?

Haha, sure am. I've the same username on there as I use here.