[Galain]

You have a lot of theories... and they are not bad theories, but I have three big issues with your response.

One, you have basically given your "last speech" as a defense. The speech innos give before they are lynched, in which they try to use their power of their CF to implicate scum. It's an interesting exercise, it's as right less often than it is wrong, and it's not really a defense of any kind more than a redirection of suspicion. This puts you squarely in the 'scum or DG' column for me.

Two, if you really think Mockra and Kaschan are paired, why, on earth, are you bringing it up on thread without a CF on one of them? Let's say you're right and they are paired. If they aren't scum, congrats, you just gave the scum two free kills. This puts you squarely in the 'symp' column for me.

Three, You only really addressed the entire case on you as being tag-along and inquisitive as saying it's a way to get information... but that statement is flawed because the information you are getting should be viewed as EVIDENCE and not PROOF. People respond to questions all the time in this game. You use those responses later to potentially incriminate them or clear them. If all you ever do is ASK the questions, you end up without any real evidence on you and that, my friend, is scummy. Finally, your response is, itself, a non response to the question.

You need to actually have some good reasons for the questionnaire style of play before I can remove my vote.

[Ampelas]

Interesting post from HP.

I think you're pushing the "Kaschan being a symp" scenario a bit too far with the interpretation you come up with. What's your conclusion from that? That we shouldn't lynch Mockra in case we're all being played by Kaschan? A bit extreme, and I don't see the point.

[Thyrllan]

okay I really need to head off for the night adn get into bed. we have a lot of time left right?

[Ampelas]

I'm going to bed, and I'll be back way before deadline.

I'm not quite sure at this point who I would prefer to vote for, Mockra or HP, but ironically in this game they're not mutually exclusive.

[Thyrllan]

yup just looked at PS. ok, ill log back on at breakfast tomorrow morning before i head off to work and try to catch up and get a vote down. good night folks!

[Ampelas]

Disclaimer: I'm not going to join Thyrllan in bed for some hot steamy sensual explorations.

[Eloth]

Hood's Path, on Jun 25 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on Jun 25 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

Emur voted and left for a while before the case about you came about.

I have not really discussed the other two cases today, but I voted you because I think you are playing oddly.

I don't hold that against I'm just saying, that as we have a good amount of time, how about we discuss everyone instead of rushing into a lynch. If you think my playing style more harm than good, then just say so and I'll vote for myself instead. I gave that speech that infected may decide to do what is best for town despite an absolute loss against their name, I should be ready to at least sacrifice hoping that townwill benefit.

Seriously, the Woe is Me thing is really overplayed. You've only got a couple of votes on you and you're being voted on for playstyle. Rather than changing you playstyle, you make a huge-ass post repeating everything you've said in the last two days then go all emo? Someone said that Rashan should hammer himself if he was inno, and now you're using a willingness to do so as your defense? That was a completely different situation - it was highly unlikely there would be a lynch on anyone else and it would have been detrimental to team inno to have to waste the next day voting rashan should noone else arrive to hammer.

Now it's still early in the day and there's a whole bunch of different options for a lynch. If you know you're inno then you should try contribute and add some content, rather than give us a sob story about how you're ok with taking one for the team. All you're doing is drawing attention to yourself and giving the killers and DG another night to do their thing.

[Path-Shaper]

Eloth, on Jun 25 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

giving the killers and DG another night to do their thing.

This doesn't sound dirty at all in anyway what so ever....

-Vengeance

[Emurlahn]

@hp - interesting vote. You do realise by pointless discussion i mean the talking about karatallid as ther eis no way we will know what their role was until we reach heaven. Galain brings up an excellent point too, why if you think a player is paired would you bring it up on thread. i will go one further, why bring it up and then not vote for one of them?

[Emurlahn]

the way i see it, if you bring it up you must be saying they are paired scum of some kind, surely you dont mean to say they are an inno roled pair on thread?!

[Hood's Path]

I can't remember if anyone discussed Liosan, so I had a look.

The first quote is Liosan taking about how infected should reveal, he also tries to paint any who say it probably wouldn't work as being anti-town.

Liosan, on Jun 23 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

So I tried to keep the conversation about infected revealing going for a while there to do two things - one: get the infected to reveal; whether it is actually a good play for them, it is definitely a good play for the town. Two: see who would nay-say it and try to convince the infected not to reveal; clear anti-town behavior.

Tellan was the most blatant, but I am also suspicious of the following people:

Eloth, offers reasons why the infected should not reveal themselves:

Eloth, on Jun 22 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

Galain, on Jun 23 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

Silanah, on Jun 22 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

Galain, on Jun 22 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

Tellan, on Jun 22 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

why the hell would he?

he also has to work on WCS--DG may get killed night 1, and if he's also guarded, then the infectee's the only choice for a DG.

there's absolutely no reason for him to do a day 1 reveal. your suggestion may become useful later on, but not day 1

You have a valid point, but as I just stated, if the infected person does NOT reveal, he is guaranteeing his own death the moment someone else reveals infected.

Pay a little attention people, DG can not die night 1, he has a 1 hit BP, or did you miss that in your rush to make each other sound intelligent.

Morgoth, on Jun 17 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Roles special for the game that will be present


The Doppelganger

1 hit BP

Actually why don't you guys go look through the above snipped post and read carefully....

I actually was agreeing under the idea that the DG gets LYNCHED day 1, not killed, but I didn't clarify that at the time. If the DG were to get lynched, then revealing today as the infected is sure-fire lose when Duncan cures you tonight and says, "Hey you're the new DG." Besdies, I'm more in the "he should reveal" camp, not just head-wagging with Tellan, whom I have firmly in my "mentally challenged" camp.

Since the infected doesn't know the DG, he can't exactly make a determination to reveal based on the DG's possible lynch.

If an infected revealed today and the DG was lynched, then Duncan wouldnt have to heal the infected to know he was the new DG - there wouldn't be anyone else it possibly could be.

Hood's Path, on Jun 23 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

The infected can't be on a winning team unless they fulfill certain obligations.

What I could see is five people claiming infected hoping that they are the one who gets healed.

By that point the infected would have a pretty good chance of surviving till then end of game along with the DG, why would they want to reveal and ask to be healed.



As interesting an idea as the infected constantly revealing is, there are several reasons they likely wont, which have been brought up before:

We dont know for a fact that we have a healer. The DG can kill whichever infected he feels isnt worth keeping around and a revealed infected would definitely classify in that category.
Even if we do have a healer, we are then forcing them to devote all their time to only ever healing infected, meaning the killers have almost nothing to fear.
If the healer dies it would become obvious that this is the case - information both scum teams are better off not having.
We wont know whether the DG or Shriek has been hit if some unrevealed comes up as infected.

There's just too many ways the plan could possibly fall to pieces. Maybe the first one or two infectees might be willing to chance it, but it's really there choice. I dont see any strategy that will immediately nullify the DG, Morgy wouldnt build a game so easily broken.

Galain, says that if there is any chance the DG is going to get lynched, the infected shouldn't reveal, offers advice to the first infected on how they should play instead of revealing:

Galain, on Jun 22 2009, 06:53 PM, said:

Eloth, on Jun 22 2009, 03:38 PM, said:

Galain, on Jun 23 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

*SNIP*

I actually was agreeing under the idea that the DG gets LYNCHED day 1, not killed, but I didn't clarify that at the time. If the DG were to get lynched, then revealing today as the infected is sure-fire lose when Duncan cures you tonight and says, "Hey you're the new DG." Besdies, I'm more in the "he should reveal" camp, not just head-wagging with Tellan, whom I have firmly in my "mentally challenged" camp.

Since the infected doesn't know the DG, he can't exactly make a determination to reveal based on the DG's possible lynch.

If an infected revealed today and the DG was lynched, then Duncan wouldnt have to heal the infected to know he was the new DG - there wouldn't be anyone else it possibly could be.

*SNIP*

True, only reason I can see him doing it is to confirm the veracity of the reveal, although with the guaranteed lynch the next day on the claimed infected, would probably would be better for him to try and guess who is getting infected.

I more or less agree with your logic about why the infected would or would not reveal based upon giving information out about a healer to the scum teams, but remember that the infected is not on a team and thus playing for himself. If you are the first infected, your goal is basically to try and survive the DG's death (both of them) and not get blown up, lynched, or killed in the process. You aren't hoping to become the replacement.

Rashan, claims the infected shouldn't reveal since they are in line to inherit, then actively pushes for a chance for the DG to infect someone else:

Rashan, on Jun 22 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 22 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

Rashan, on Jun 22 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Omtose, on Jun 22 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

@Lio - fair enough...just wanted to be cautious.

@Sil - yes I was, but given Lio's comment about healer might NOT being able to heal an SO then I guess it makes everything I thought a bit pointless, except the bit about not PIing an infected, especially as Rashan's latest but one post mentions the inno bit again. (Did he really vote night??? killingme.gif )

yes I did vote for night. I like the idea of testing out the whole idea of an infected revealing that they are infected just to see what happens. (call me sick for asking someone to potentially lose for my sick pleasure)

So I fail to see how voting night and testing out an infected reveal are at all correlated.

right now there is only one person infected. As they are in line to replace the DG if we somehow manage to kill the DG they are not likely to reveal that they are infected. Therefore to test the theory out the DG needs to infect someone else. To do that we need to go to night. As a group I doubt that we can get a good feel of who we need to lynch during the first day so I say we get that first day over so the DG can infect someone so then that person can revel as being infected. And as I haven't heard any good case as to who to lynch at the moment I currently rest at ending the day at the moment. I also know it takes 11 votes to end the day so I doubt that very many other people would also agree to that and there will be more chatter. I just wanted to get my vote in where I currently stand if I have to step away for a while and miss some action.

Silanah, his comments against revealing are very slight (don't reveal or you might go BOOM). It's directed at scum and how they should play as infected, but could easily be meant for anyone:

Silanah, on Jun 22 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

Omtose, on Jun 22 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

No, I didn't mean false claims, I meant scum could be genuinely infected and be glad to announce it, they get a double bonus. Heal/disinfection and stop Duncan 'protecting' a genuine inno.


Edit: This was @ Sil.

Yeah, except by the same token the DG could then go and overload his synapses:

'Path-Shaper' said:

The order of night actions:
Guard -> Heal -> Synapse overload (not affected by guard) ->Infect -> Find -> Desinfect -> Kill

So I would think that should a scum become infected they will either try and take out Duncan and become the DG's Symp or try to take out the DGs to cure themselves.

D'riss, might still be a little bit of OMGUS in my suspicion of D'riss, but he basically tried to strong-arm me into not talking about revealing:

D'riss, on Jun 22 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 22 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

Who is this Lioan character?

And to HP, if the healing/curing of infected actually works, then the healer and Duncan should just keep doing that every night to effectively kick the DG in the balls and keep him on the mat for the entire game.

Pardon

Remove vote Vote Liosan

There we go, and you continue to discuss what the healer should or shouldn't do, you know, the only thing you are accomplishing is working under Best case scenario. We may not even have a healer, so what good does this conversation do?

The list might not be complete, but I'd say it's a good place to start looking for the DG.

Rashan is a good bet, voting for night and all to get another infection, but he's being so obvious in his fumbling, I'm convinced he's a just a complete noob. Of course, nowhere in the rules does it say the DG can't be the noob player...

Ok What I'm getting at is instead of DG playing neutral (in that his suggestions are stuck in the middle between for scum and for inno), he is going to go for pro town, he is the DG he is being hunted potentially by everyone he doesn't want to read as scum. He is going to come up with suggestions that aid town by the looks of it. So that anyone who points out there are holes he will claim them as scum. He suggested that this lot who objected to him, are potential DG, one of these guys was D'riss, maybe Liosan infected him hoping he would keep quiet, and when he slip up, Liosan brings a lynch against him, what do you know, he's infected maybe he the DG.

[Hood's Path]

Right this post here fom Liosan gives him a valid reason to depart without contributing any more, maybe he wants to keep his post count low.

Liosan, on Jun 23 2009, 02:14 PM, said:

Omtose, on Jun 23 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

Seriously, if Morgy had put a jester in he would have had to tell us....wouldn't he? Because I feel like I am in some sort of mafia alternative reality. I mean is there a really high level of...of...incomprehensibility...or is it just me? question.gif


Edit: XXXXXXXXXXXXXpost - grrr

These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. I'm gonna come back later when, with hope, the ratio of stupid to non-stupid is lower.

Right here he suggests that mockra may be scum, through the various other posts, he talks about mockra speed lynching and how it is scummy nd so forth, also the little touch of go for galain if mockra is scum is a nice touch. He agrees with Kara about how players should remove their votes to show they are not compulsed. Again another pro town idea that the DG would agree to help him appear as inno and if he isn't going to use compulse until much later.

Liosan, on Jun 24 2009, 01:20 PM, said:

Karatallid, on Jun 24 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

I think we'll struggle to win this. It's the idea of compulsion that's the problem.

Say we push to lynch a scum. Obviously, lynching a scum is never easy, and their teammates/symp will make sure there's a competing lynch. And obviously, they will try to paint the people voting for their teammate as infected. Now, a very easy way to prove this not true is to remove vote, and a player wanting to prove themself not under compulsion will do this. Like Silanah just did. Which releases the pressure. Anyone who refuses to remove vote paints themselves as infected in everyone's eyes.

The scum have such an easy way out. And the DG/infected can play at this, too, although with less effect (lack of communication).

The only solution I can think of is to not talk about compulsion unless you actually have some evidence that it's happening. And no, people voting for someone you don't think is guilty is not evidence. Most people think that compulsion today is unlikely, so why is it being suggested so much? People can disagree without being under compulsion.

I also fully agree with this. Remove votes at the end of the day if it's not on the lynch, but don't try and get someone to remove their vote in the middle of the day by accusing them of being infected.

I'd say if Mockra turns up scum, Galain is most likely his symp.

Just reinforcing how mockra is looking scummy, thus keeping attention on to mockra and potentially away from him.

Liosan, on Jun 24 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 24 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

Damn forum downs...
Wow I wasn't expecting all this talk about me from my one post while I was checking in...
I didn't vote under pressure... I voted as I found him to be the best candidate earlier and others didn't seem to hesitate. Why should putting him at l-3 be a bad thing from my position.. its not like i am hammering him with 20 hours left. The reason I placed my vote is that I was hoping for a speed lynch on the inevitable target so the 2 infected players in play would die from not having their vote on a specific alt if that power is currently in effect. The fact that 2 people jumped on my is beginning to make me think that there is the DG forcing them to do so which gives me much more suspicions of Sil. It seems not many of you realized that I made a post with a vote that I said I would place earlier and you all begin talking about me over reacting...
Im going to leave my vote where it is and we still have 7 hours with Rash at L-2.
Copy pasta

You admit to wanting a speed-lynch? Something that is only good for scum? On the off-chance that a)the DG compelled his infected (which, as discussed earlier, is incredibly unlikely/stupid) and b)they haven't already put their votes down and wouldn't have been around later to do so either? You want to sacrifice loads of information and discussion on the stupidly small chance of outing or killing a couple infected?

Admitting to wanting a speed-lynch! I can't even wrap my head around it... Clearly, we need to put another person in the idiot box.

Again he says that mockrais now definite scum, yet here he removes his vote, i think as a slight hw tomake people think he isn't infected.

Liosan, on Jun 24 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

Okay, since Rashan is now fixin' to get hammered, I guess I'm going to

remove vote

as discussed earlier (making it harder for the DG to compel and all that). My vote is still on Mockra, though. In fact, I think there are, like, 3 unregistered votes on Mockra right now, just in case, I dunno, you guys wanna bag a definite scum, 'cause Mockra is scummy as shit.

[Hood's Path]

Again Liosan reinforcing that mockra is scum in his eyes.

Liosan, on Jun 24 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 25 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 25 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 01:56 AM, said:

Korlat, on Jun 25 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

@Mockra - see my last post.

Admittedly, it assumes D'riss is infected as he claims, and that the infected have been compelled, which, as Rashan pointed out, is actually unlikely this early in the game.

I believe that being compelled to vote is very likely this early and not later as there could be a large number of people voting one way, the rest voting the other and it would be apparent who is infected

Just because you think he's not likely to use compel later, that has no bearing on the whether he would use the ability now. Your argument still makes no sense.

So there is a chance he would do it or wouldn't, where did I say I was certain he would? I don't seem to understand your argument

When you said you wanted to sacrifice a lot discussion and information by speed-lynching in an attempt to *catch* the infected. I guess I assumed you were pretty sure they were being compelled if you wanted to take that risk.

Yes I was assuming so, do you have a problem with that? I wasn't expecting that anyone would speed lynch anyway but placing my vote and leaving is all I could do. Its funny how people take things out of proportion when they can't find solid evidence

Yes, I have a problem with that when it results in you trying to speed-lynch somebody on day 2. It means you're either scum or you're too stupid to be playing this game.

There are other times when he reinforces that small list he made of who he thought we should look at as potential scum. The main person he seems to wonder about is Eloth and how he can't make sense of some of his comments on how a infecte reveal may give too much info to the DG.

In those posts he makes out that anyone who clearly disagrees with him are "scum" and clearly reinforces thispoint of view quite a bit.

Sorry this taken me a while to write as i'm using a virtual keyboard, also I think no one has fully looked at Liosan but if they had, I feel like an idiot.

[Hood's Path]

Again Liosan reinforcing that mockra is scum in his eyes.

Liosan, on Jun 24 2009, 11:44 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 25 2009, 06:35 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

Liosan, on Jun 25 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jun 25 2009, 01:56 AM, said:

Korlat, on Jun 25 2009, 05:53 PM, said:

@Mockra - see my last post.

Admittedly, it assumes D'riss is infected as he claims, and that the infected have been compelled, which, as Rashan pointed out, is actually unlikely this early in the game.

I believe that being compelled to vote is very likely this early and not later as there could be a large number of people voting one way, the rest voting the other and it would be apparent who is infected

Just because you think he's not likely to use compel later, that has no bearing on the whether he would use the ability now. Your argument still makes no sense.

So there is a chance he would do it or wouldn't, where did I say I was certain he would? I don't seem to understand your argument

When you said you wanted to sacrifice a lot discussion and information by speed-lynching in an attempt to *catch* the infected. I guess I assumed you were pretty sure they were being compelled if you wanted to take that risk.

Yes I was assuming so, do you have a problem with that? I wasn't expecting that anyone would speed lynch anyway but placing my vote and leaving is all I could do. Its funny how people take things out of proportion when they can't find solid evidence

Yes, I have a problem with that when it results in you trying to speed-lynch somebody on day 2. It means you're either scum or you're too stupid to be playing this game.

There are other times when he reinforces that small list he made of who he thought we should look at as potential scum. The main person he seems to wonder about is Eloth and how he can't make sense of some of his comments on how a infecte reveal may give too much info to the DG.

In those posts he makes out that anyone who clearly disagrees with him are "scum" and clearly reinforces thispoint of view quite a bit.

Sorry this taken me a while to write as i'm using a virtual keyboard, also I think no one has fully looked at Liosan but if they had, I feel like an idiot.

[Hood's Path]

Emurlahn, on Jun 25 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

the way i see it, if you bring it up you must be saying they are paired scum of some kind, surely you dont mean to say they are an inno roled pair on thread?!

I think that they are scum paired, or that Kaschan may be symp, and he's symping someone that look's scummy, so as to distract us from who he truly symping.

Remove Vote

[Hood's Path]

This is a summation of what other people said and my look into Liosan and how they correlate together. Hopefully the the three posts of quotes from Liosan will help support my view.

OK my list of suspects:

Liosan as DG: playing as the guy who heavily supports and suggests ways of trying to beat himself gives him a brilliant disguise especially as they are very beneficial to town. Anyone who disagrees with him is listed as potential scum, where he can he tries to reinforce this idea, doing so puts attention on people he points at. Also it is a benefit for him to point out anyone he thinks is scum cause they can be a potential threat to him.

Mockra as possible killer: the sudden change from let's hold back and see to let's get Rashan (with a excuse that a speed lynch might catch out compulsed infected), look's scummy and Liosan grabs hold and berates him for being an idiot as he believes compulsion wouldn't be used so early (is this due to him waiting to use it later when it has a bigger advantage), as killer Mockra may be afraid that potential infected may eventually be used to help the DG win against him, if that the case then it suits his purpose to keep trying speed lynches to catch out compulsed infected.

Kaschan as symp:Tries to suggest that compulsed Infected were on Mockra lynch, this would be a big benefit to the scum as it would make people hesitate, as they wouldn't want aid the DG. Did think he may have been symping someone else but why sacrifice himself if his killer hasn't been exposed.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 24 hours and 21 minutes remaining

15 Players still alive: Ampelas, Barghast, Eloth, Emurlahn, Galain, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Korlat, Liosan, Meanas, Mockra, Silanah, Thyrllan

8 votes to lynch, 8 votes to go to night

3 votes for Hood's Path: ( Galayn Lord, Galain, Thyrllan )
1 vote for Mockra: ( Emurlahn )

Players not voted: Ampelas, Barghast, Eloth, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Korlat, Liosan, Meanas, Mockra, Silanah

[Kaschan]

Meanas, on Jun 25 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

Ugh, festivals, I hope there won't be clowns. I hate clowns.

Still catching up, but had to respond to this...I just finished reading It by Stephen King. Needless to say, I agree with this statement.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 23 hours and 38 minutes remaining

15 Players still alive: Ampelas, Barghast, Eloth, Emurlahn, Galain, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Korlat, Liosan, Meanas, Mockra, Silanah, Thyrllan

8 votes to lynch, 8 votes to go to night

3 votes for Hood's Path: ( Galayn Lord, Galain, Thyrllan )
1 vote for Mockra: ( Emurlahn )

Players not voted: Ampelas, Barghast, Eloth, Gamelon, Hood's Path, Kaschan, Korlat, Liosan, Meanas, Mockra, Silanah


Ok guys I am off to class. Unfortunately for you lot I will be gone at a wedding for the weekend. So during the day tomorrow you might be modless for variously long lengths of time.

Night all

Vengeance

[Galain]

I wonder how long it's going to take Kaschan to catch up. Maybe he got scared of the case on him.