[D'rek]

Alternatively, it doesn't have to be Hood the cousin one is referring to - the entire meaning could have changed with the switch. Thus Tulas' cousin could be, say, Rake (could both be Tiste royals therefore cousins via MD), etc.

[coltainereborn]

D'rek, on Jun 11 2009, 09:15 AM, said:

Alternatively, it doesn't have to be Hood the cousin one is referring to - the entire meaning could have changed with the switch. Thus Tulas' cousin could be, say, Rake (could both be Tiste royals therefore cousins via MD), etc.

I was thinking this same thing after re-reading the last few chapters of TTh last knight, not only did Rake "anticipate the worst" - sending Spinnock Durav to stop Kallor, leaving Endest to deal with the crippled god, sending Hood to Dragnipur etc., before arriving himself- but he is also a Dragon, it could be the Eleint blood that makes them "cousins"
not only that but I think royalty thinks of family relationships a little different, and would consider distant relatives "cousins" that normal folk would not.

[Abyss]

okay but correct me if i'm wrong but we essentially have confirmation of a typo - one of these is not what the author intended, tho he may have considered it.

Maybe Shorn was supposed to be Andii initially but to link him to the Hounds of Shadow and not create yet another draconic Andii it made sense to go with edur, so SE made the change but it slipped by in the proofing at one publisher or the other.


- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

[chill]

I don't see why Tulas couldn't be Rake's cousin. That makes sense, if you ask me.

This post has been edited by chill: 11 June 2009 - 06:07 PM

[Abyss]

Possibly... if you accept that Rake is born of Mommy D then 'cousin' implies a blood relation one step removed from same parent... so if Tulas were first born from Mommy D and Daddy L then they would be half-brothers.

If Tulas is anywhere only slightly further down the line - ie: a child of any of the 'first gen' Edur, technically Rake would be his cousin, even without getting into just who sheboinged Tiam when and whether that is another factor.

But even so, we have two versions and there can be only one correct one.


- Abyss, ...at least, i think there can be only one...

[coltainereborn]

Wow, actually if he is Rake's cousin through MD, then who is MD's brother or sister? Grief thinks he's Edur, which makes sense b/c he apparently once ruled shadow. Could he be Liosan? although the way he treats the Hol that doesn't seem likely. I truly hope we get some more info later on, I'm making myself dizzy going back and forth on this one.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jun 11 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

okay but correct me if i'm wrong but we essentially have confirmation of a typo - one of these is not what the author intended, tho he may have considered it.

Maybe Shorn was supposed to be Andii initially but to link him to the Hounds of Shadow and not create yet another draconic Andii it made sense to go with edur, so SE made the change but it slipped by in the proofing at one publisher or the other.


- Abyss, trusts in SE, SE is good, SE is great...

It doesn't really have to be a typo either. Erikson may well have originally had Tulas exactly the way he is now and intended the cousin thing but some proof-reader found it really confusing and misleading, so he just changed it to Hood instead.

[Abyss]

coltainereborn, on Jun 11 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

Wow, actually if he is Rake's cousin through MD, then who is MD's brother or sister? Grief thinks he's Edur, which makes sense b/c he apparently once ruled shadow. Could he be Liosan? although the way he treats the Hol that doesn't seem likely. I truly hope we get some more info later on, I'm making myself dizzy going back and forth on this one.

Not cousin in the direct 'child of my parent's sibling' sense - edur originate from Mommy d and Father L, after all, which means both Edur and Andii have one ultimate parent in common - , rather, child of a cousin's cousin sort of thing... the 'first' generation of edur and Andii would have been half-siblings and every subsequent generation on either side would be cousins in the broad sense.

Whether Shorn is first generation edur or not is not established, but it certainly appeared that Scabby, the only other draconic Edur we've seen, was NOT first gen but liked to pretend he was and the Letherii edur myths bought into this.

D'rek, on Jun 11 2009, 06:07 PM, said:

Abyss, on Jun 11 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

okay but correct me if i'm wrong but we essentially have confirmation of a typo...

It doesn't really have to be a typo either. Erikson may well have originally had Tulas exactly the way he is now and intended the cousin thing but some proof-reader found it really confusing and misleading, so he just changed it to Hood instead.

Was using 'typo' broadly - if a copy editor made the switch contrary to what SE intended than it's still an error.


- Abyss, notes that would be heresy!

[D'rek]

Abyss, on Jun 12 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

Was using 'typo' broadly - if a copy editor made the switch contrary to what SE intended than it's still an error.


- Abyss, notes that would be heresy!

He could intend it both ways... (SE is great, SE is good, all that stuff)

[Ain't_It_Just_]

So which one do we accept as canon?

[D'rek]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jun 12 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

So which one do we accept as canon?

Both. Hood is a Jaghut and can anticipate the worst. Rake is vaguely Tulas' cousin and can anticipate the worst.

[coltainereborn]

OH c'mon D'rek, no fence sitting here, we may never straiten it out(short of SE's divine intervention) but if cousin doesn't refer to hood- it doesn't necessarily have to be Rake, even if it does seem to make sense. I still think the cousin reference could be referring back to Hood like in the UK edition- just a little more info thrown in in the US edition.

[Bale]

I come to this thread rather late, but in reading Toll again, I noticed this passage, below. Unfortunately, I am reading on Kindle, so can't specify page, etc.
This is a musing of Endest Silann, on the almost perfect darkness surrounding he and Rake:

"Kharkanas, before she embraced Light, before the ones born of ashes lifted themselves up and took swords in hand. Scabandari. Ilgast Rend. Halyd Bahann. Esthala who dreamed of peace. Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who did not."

I assume, based on "born of ashes" and the apparent relation to Scabandari that the Kagamandra Tulas Shorn to whom Endest refers is a Tiste Edur.

Edited to add:

Later on, when Shorn meets up with Dev, Karsa and Traveller, Karsa specifically states: "You are Tiste Edur." Traveller follows up by saying: "More than that... one of Hood's own."

Traveller's comment I simply chalk up to meaning "you are dead mofo" but Karsa isn't usually wrong.

This post has been edited by Bale: 30 December 2010 - 06:09 PM

[Hetan]

@Bale - you are quite correct.

Tulas Shorn is cousin to Anomander Rake and yes, those born of ashes refers to the Edur.

The other reference - one of Hood's own - simply refers to Tulas Shorn as being undead from the realm of Death rather than undead in the way of the T'lan Imass who never passed through Hood's Gates.

[foolio]

during my recent reread I thought about this "cousin plan for the worst" line. I assumed it meant Rake had bargained with Hood to intentionally let Tulas Shorn free becasue he anticipated the hounds of light showing up and wanted Tulas to be there to balance them . Heck , he seemed to have anticipated just about everything else.

Another words it wasnt a coincidence or charity from Hood that freed him, it was Anomander requesting he be freed to help out.....

[Hetan]

I don't know about that Foolio, as there was another dragon escaping from the hills at the same time - and it was a long row of hills. If not for the rent snapping shut, who knows how many could have escaped into this world. I think it was more a case of The Army of Death marshalling all it's resources and Tulas Shorn got lucky - as he said himself - he saw the chance and took it.

[foolio]

Hetan, on 06 January 2011 - 08:28 AM, said:

I think it was more a case of The Army of Death marshalling all it's resources and Tulas Shorn got lucky - as he said himself - he saw the chance and took it.

but as the OP said, Tulas also thinks to himself

"Tulas Shorn had never known that Hood, Lord of the Slain, could prove so..... generous.
Or perhaps it was nothing more than Shorn's damned cousin's talent for expecting the worst"
you and I agree that his cousin in reference to this is Rake, right?

[tiam]

Just throwing this out there.

Both Rake and Hood are eleint soletaken. Therefore cousin works for both.

that is all

[Hetan]

@ tiam - Don't be silly. Hood is a Jaghut not a soletaken eleint.

@ Foolio - I thought it related to the feeling of blessing he was experiencing at that time, as Hood had never been known to be generous in that regard. But you certainly could be right and I see no reason why Rake couldn't have planned it that way. Hell for all we know, it might have been part of the bargain Quick Ben overheard.

[ansible]

Hetan, on 10 January 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

ah yes - forgot - apologies.

Next time could you try to "forget" a spoiler from tCG? I won't tell if you don't.