[Elephant Tamer]

It seems that TTH describes a segulah as being the knight of high house death. In fact, it seems to be the same segulah that cutter met in an earlier book (was it TBH? cant remember), who was described as being the soldier. While Baudin, on the other hand, seemed to have held the position of knight. now the roles seem to have been reversed. Any clue why?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

No clue, but many agree that Hood can make any changes he wants, so there's no point splitting hairs.

Besides, I think you'll agree that the Seguleh Second is a better candidate.

[Elephant Tamer]

The problem is, it seems the second was around way before Baudin was, so it would make more sense if he was already knight.

[Jorram]

While people keep insisting that this change is somehow deliberate and showing us that positions can change, I think it is obvious by far that Erikson just messed them up (either in TBH or in TTH)

[snoman52]

isnt baudin hoods herald?

[HoosierDaddy]

Lol. Sheer chaos in this thread:

HHD positions throughout the series:

Pre-GotM:
Knight of High House Death - Dassem Ultor, Hood's Mortal Sword and First Sword of the Malazan Empire

MoI:

Herald - Gethol, brother of Gothos, released from his position after scarring by Brukhalion, now Herald of High House of Chains
Knight of Death - Baudin, guardian of the Mhybe prior to the ritual
Magi - Possibly Kalamandas

The Bonehunters:

Soldier - The Seguleh Second

Toll the Hounds:

King - Hood
Soldier - Baudin
Knight - Seguleh Second

Why the Seguleh Second only became Knight in TtH is strange as and his service has been presumably much longer than either Baudin or Dassem. Dassem was the Knight presumably while the Second was still Solider.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 01 June 2009 - 01:31 AM

[Lisheo]

For all we know, Hood put the Second in charge because he was more used to dealing with armies, which was needed for Dragnipur.

But it is more likely that SE made a mistake.

[Use Of Weapons]

Nah, I think the chain of events is this:

pre GotM: Dassem is Knight, Seguleh Second (SS) is soldier.

Dassem quits, SS remains soldier (Hood being lazy)

Baudin dies, Hood recruits -- open position is Knight, so he slots him in there.

Realises that the positions now make no sense, so swaps them over so that by TTH, SS is Knight and Baudin is Soldier.

QED.

[Elephant Tamer]

Man, that makes Hood a pretty lazy god of death and all, which sort of contradictes what we've seen of him up until now. And really, Baudin was a talon, basiclly an assassin, so how does that fit in the role of soldier better than knight?

[MTS]

It fits much better than Knight does.

Also, Hood hates his job. I wouldn't put it past him to just leave the Second as Soldier. Besides, it's doesn't really matter whether they're Knight or Soldier.

I think SE just made a mistake, or he decided it makes more sense for the more powerful entity to occupy a higher position in the house, and thus did a switcharoo.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 01 June 2009 - 01:15 PM

[Abyss]

Ain't_It_Just_, on May 31 2009, 06:43 AM, said:

No clue, but many agree that Hood can make any changes he wants, so there's no point splitting hairs.

Besides, I think you'll agree that the Seguleh Second is a better candidate.

fundamentally this is the primary arguement - It's Hood's House and he can do whatever he wants with it.

Jorram, on May 31 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

While people keep insisting that this change is somehow deliberate and showing us that positions can change, I think it is obvious by far that Erikson just messed them up (either in TBH or in TTH)

SACRILEGE!!!!! Kill it! Kill it with sharp point big stabby things!!!!

But no.. read the relevant bits of MoI, TB and TtH carefuuly - SE is very specifically referring to individuals in certain roles. Arguably, Gethol, being a Jaghut Tyrant, was more powerful than Dassem (pre-Desssembrae), Baudin or the Second, but for whatever reason (obviously not his diplomacy skills), Hood made him 'Herald' and tossed him when he acted up. Then in TtH Toc, who was Mortal Sword of the Wolf Gods, (a position analogous to 'Knight', becomes 'Herald of Death'. Positions can shift. Trust in SE. SE is good. SE is great.

HoosierDaddy, on May 31 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

Lol. Sheer chaos in this thread:

HHD positions throughout the series:

Pre-GotM:
Knight of High House Death - Dassem Ultor, Hood's Mortal Sword and First Sword of the Malazan Empire

Has Dessem ever been stated as 'Mortal Sword'? because while the Grey Swords were using it, that's otherwise a dated term for the (almost, sometimes) same thing and i believe Dassem has only ever been called 'Knight' and possibly 'Champion'.

Quote

MoI:

Herald - Gethol, brother of Gothos, released from his position after scarring by Brukhalion, now Herald of High House of Chains
Knight of Death - Baudin, guardian of the Mhybe prior to the ritual
Magi - Possibly Kalamandas

Favourite crazy theory - Hood pulled a fast one on Quick Ben and while Quick thought it was Tala', it was actually QB himself who became Magi.

Evidence - Bottle's comment in TB that QB stinks of Hood, but Tala is nowhere around.

Quote

The Bonehunters:

Soldier - The Seguleh Second

Toll the Hounds:

King - Hood
Soldier - Baudin
Knight - Seguleh Second

Why the Seguleh Second only became Knight in TtH is strange as and his service has been presumably much longer than either Baudin or Dassem. Dassem was the Knight presumably while the Second was still Solider.

It may be that there is a variance in the amount of power invested in the position. When the Seg2nd was running around trying to satisafy his man crush on Skinner, he had a minimal amount of Hoodpower while Baudin, who was acting on Hood's behalf to awaken the Beast warren, needed to channel WAY more, thus, 'Knight'. Cut to the big finish in Dranipur and now Hood needs Seg2nd to go fight Hounds, hence, powerup to 'Knight" and Baudin, in whatever job Hood had for him (i'm betting it was to kill any surviving beings chained in Dragnipur) became 'Soldier'.

And just to complicate your thinkymeats, remember that Whatzizname the fingerless guy was ALSO referred to as a 'Soldier' in TtH for the purposes of the ritual his wife (Tormy, who was 'Mason') did that brought Hood completely into Darujhistan.

Lisheo, on Jun 1 2009, 04:18 AM, said:

For all we know, Hood put the Second in charge because he was more used to dealing with armies, which was needed for Dragnipur.

But it is more likely that SE made a mistake.

Nonon, you were right the first time...

jitsukerr, on Jun 1 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

...
Realises that the positions now make no sense, so swaps them over so that by TTH, SS is Knight and Baudin is Soldier.
...

per above, not a ridic theory.

Elephant Tamer, on Jun 1 2009, 07:05 AM, said:

Man, that makes Hood a pretty lazy god of death and all, which sort of contradictes what we've seen of him up until now. And really, Baudin was a talon, basiclly an assassin, so how does that fit in the role of soldier better than knight?

About as much as a housewife being a 'Mason' and a fingerless thug being a 'Soldier', or a sheer novice tribesman tracker becoming 'soldier of Light' over in RCG.

Don't think linearly. The titles are for the purposes of providing order to the pantheon AND roles to individuals like Tormy who become caught up in the games gods play. It's not simple, it's not straightforward. SE is more clever than that. Clear roles and levels are for rpgs.

- Abyss, believes in SE, SE is good, SE is great, SE saves... the timeline is not important, the timeline is not important...

[Elephant Tamer]

Hmm. You have indeed forced strenuous activity upon the thinkymeat. So blame me not when I go on a (actually, rather short) ramble.
In a way, i thought the man and wife were always refered to as soldier and mason in the temporary sense, which we have encountered often earlier especially with deck readings.On the other hand, we have what seem to be the semi-permenant positions, and i personally am annoyed when these are messed with because they are one of the few things which are anchored, they are no longer in SE's hand, they are in the readers. So even in the case of a juxtaposition, an explanation would be nice. Perhaps the question could be pitched to him at some point.
Why would the Second be more informed about dealing with armies and such? We know of the segulah's prowess in single combat, but they hardly seem the type to fight all out wars. If anything justifies this, please explain. And also, the position of soldier is usually filled by exactly that, a soldier, in short, someone with martial experience. So even if the Second is more experienced, he should still keep his postition.
Finally, it seems only Hood can manipulate the positions in his house so freely. Perhaps because his chosen dont seem to have much choice, and they aren't really busy with other things. But it seems in general that positions, especially that of knight, are filled by someone, usually with a martial background, ascending. So, any ideas?

[beru]

leading a army is only a duel on a large scale... more so if they are dead...

[Abyss]

Elephant Tamer, on Jun 1 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

Hmm. You have indeed forced strenuous activity upon the thinkymeat. So blame me not when I go on a (actually, rather short) ramble.
In a way, i thought the man and wife were always refered to as soldier and mason in the temporary sense, which we have encountered often earlier especially with deck readings....

exactly.

Quote

On the other hand, we have what seem to be the semi-permenant positions, and i personally am annoyed when these are messed with because they are one of the few things which are anchored, they are no longer in SE's hand, they are in the readers.

negative. it's SE's show and he runs it the way he wants and if he says that Hood as King of HHDeath wants/needs to shuffle positions then he can, we are not in a position to do anything more than marvel at his brilliance in tossing the tropes offside yet again. The positions are not anchored, nothing is permanent. Heboric spent a large chunk of two books v\being ref'd as Trake's Destriant but when there was a need he went Sheild Anvil.

Quote

So even in the case of a juxtaposition, an explanation would be nice. Perhaps the question could be pitched to him at some point.
Why would the Second be more informed about dealing with armies and such? We know of the segulah's prowess in single combat, but they hardly seem the type to fight all out wars. If anything justifies this, please explain. And also, the position of soldier is usually filled by exactly that, a soldier, in short, someone with martial experience. So even if the Second is more experienced, he should still keep his postition.

Nope again. Even if you don't accept my theory above that the shift was to ensure the 2nd had enuf power to deal with the Hounds of Light and whatever else, Tormsy was not a mason, she was a housewifle, and her busband was never a soldier, he was a fisherman and a brawler. Over in RCG, Kyle was a tracker, not a soldier.

One of the great things about these books is that 'rules' don't apply. Things change. it's more fun that way.

Quote

Finally, it seems only Hood can manipulate the positions in his house so freely. Perhaps because his chosen dont seem to have much choice, and they aren't really busy with other things. But it seems in general that positions, especially that of knight, are filled by someone, usually with a martial background, ascending. So, any ideas?

Shadowthrone never selected Trull to be 'Knight of High House Shadow', but there he was and if i recall correctly, ST was annoyed by it. Trull ascended because 'Shadow' selected him... he was an edur aspected to Elder Shadow. He was fighting to protect a bunch of kids sworn to Shadow... whatever it was, he ascended into it - no one 'picked' him.

Over in the House o Chains, it seemed absolutely certain that Kallor was going to be 'King', yet he ended up as 'Reaver', and it seemed the CG himself was King for a bit despite saying he wouldn't take on a position, before Skinner came along.

And we haven't seen all that much of Houses Life and Light. We don't actually know who can shift what and when and we have more evidence that things are flexible than that they are 'stuck'.

The assumptions arent actually based in anything other than a fantasy lit trope that SE ditched. It's part of the beauty of the series.

- Abyss, ...SE is good, SE is great...

[Elephant Tamer]

Quote

Nope again. Even if you don't accept my theory above that the shift was to ensure the 2nd had enuf power to deal with the Hounds of Light and whatever else, Tormsy was not a mason, she was a housewifle, and her busband was never a soldier, he was a fisherman and a brawler. Over in RCG, Kyle was a tracker, not a soldier.

One of the great things about these books is that 'rules' don't apply. Things change. it's more fun that way.

Im not sure I agree. Thing change. That makes sense. But usually there are rules to the change. Nothing rigid or limiting, but something that makes sense in a way if you dont scrutinize it too much. As I said, my main problem isnt with them changing as much as them changing without explanation.

But what i find really interesting is your implication that different positions in the house mean different power. Can this be verified? Does a knight have more power than a soldier, or a weaver? only the king/queens position seem to hold much power behind them.

[Hetan]

I can tell you categorically that SE did not make a mistake - it was a position switch is all

[Elephant Tamer]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't really believe that it was a mistake. I just would have liked to have an explanation aknowledgement that a switch had been made. And who knows, perhaps we will see it in one of the next books.

[D'rek]

If you ask me, the simplest explanation is that roles are not specific to one person, and thus since any number of people can hold a given position, then they can be shifted about as per individual circumstances. Thus, when the Seg2nd is chasing Skinner that is a role more suited to Soldier, but when he is helping to lead the deathly army that is a role more suited to Knight. I would hazard that it doesn't matter whether Baudin is already the Knight or not because they can both be Kngihts and it is just coincidence that Baudin's new tasks were more fitted to the role of Soldier.

I believe in RotCG there is a

Spoiler

confirmation to the existance of lower and upper attendants/positions in a House

. Well this all helps with Thordy and Gaz (and others), Gaz can be a Soldier of Death in a lesser sense than Baudin or the Seg2nd, but still be holding that position if he is officially sanctioned by Hood to be doing it. Obviously he's below compare with the other two, but he can still be holding the position in a lower sense (as I believe Thordy is doing the same as a lower Mason, since there should probably be a more permanent, powerful Mason.

[Jorram]

Quote

and it seemed the CG himself was King for a bit despite saying he wouldn't take on a position, before Skinner came along.

I think at that time Rhulad was actually the King of the house.

Quote

I believe in RotCG there is a...

ee? where do you get this from exactly?

And I am still so non-convinced about the switch being deliberate (with all due respect to Hetan's info). SE might be great indeed, but it wouldnt be the first time he let stuff slip his mind.

[MTS]

Jorram, on Jun 2 2009, 10:09 AM, said:

Quote

I believe in RotCG there is a...

ee? where do you get this from exactly?

It's where that guy in the Guard is explaining to Kyle how the Deck works.

Quote

And I am still so non-convinced about the switch being deliberate (with all due respect to Hetan's info). SE might be great indeed, but it wouldnt be the first time he let stuff slip his mind.

I wouldn't doubt Hetan. She knows SE and probably asked him this very question. I doubt he would be bothered lying if it did slip his mind anyway. Like Abyss says, SE is good, SE is great...

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 02 June 2009 - 04:27 AM