Malazan Empire: Surly - Malazan Empire

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Surly how good?

#21 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 07:13 PM

View PostWhiskeyJackDaniels, on 23 March 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

There was a massive pile of otataral dust on the floor of the room brought by Laseen to negate Kellanved. So essentially he was just an old man with a cane. (though there is no evidence of this, I would have no problem believing that Kellanved was actually more than that and able to defend himself through mundane means, not on the level of dancer, laseen and topper...but enough to take out some claws or stay alive perhaps)
Ah. I either missed or forgot this detail. This kind of changes my perception of Dancer a bit. The Emperor was a withered up old man from the descriptions in NoK and while he may have been 'capable' of self defense I think it highly unlikely he'd have stood long against a top Claw. With this in mind I don't think Laseen could have stood against Dancer 1v1. Again, he and Kellanved weren't looking to win the fight. They were looking to enter the Deadhouse.

This post has been edited by Abberon: 24 March 2010 - 01:49 PM

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#22 User is offline   CussersForChristmas 

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:20 AM

Talking dancers abilities, I know he was a god and everything but that scene on Drift Avalii (can't remember what book) where he squares up against an army of edur was intense. I read that and thougt "Holy shit, he isn't called 'the rope' for nothing!"
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#23 User is offline   Jingospice 

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:00 AM

View PostBattle Plaptypus, on 22 December 2009 - 07:40 PM, said:

View PostUrizen, on 22 December 2009 - 07:25 PM, said:

To me Surly isn't anywhere near Dancer as an assasin/fighter. Just look at the end of the fight scene in Nok, Ash dead and Dancer and Kellanved cut up bad but yeton the other hand, twelve dead Claws, and Topper, Possum and Surly wounded. If Surly (or Topper for that matter) was even close to Dancer, Kellanved and Dancer would never have left the room alive.


Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?


There are quotes in RotCG that can put this argument to rest but this isn't the forum for it. I'll just agree that Surly is sweet. If you have a team with Dancer, Kellenved, Nok, and Dassem, how is the one who ends up on top just gonna be average?
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#24 User is offline   NefaraisBredd 

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

In unarmed combat, Surly is prolly the most terrifying mortal in the books. As stated in this.thread, read on and you will see.her deal some incredible dammage.
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#25 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:11 PM

She created a group of assassins that rivaled, and then defeated the one created by Dancer, the greatest assassin in the books. I've seen tons of arguments about who the best assassin is on these boards, and while I'm not saying she's on par with Kalam and Apsalar and Cotillion, but I thought we'd get to see some of her skills in this book when she takes her throne. Then we didn't. FML
[/quote]

she's extremely good, (See rotcg) but as to the talon vs claw thing I feel that was in part due to kel and dancer going exploring for years and not being home to deal with politics, so she starts screwing things around and becomes a more skilled and treacherous politician... but in terms of fighting skill and shadow dancing Dancer owns pretty much anything. The only Shadow dance that was better was apsalars.... but even that doesn't mean she is better than Dancer, it just means at that point with the raw emotion/love/tragedy in er heart she killed it.

Dancer wins :( each and every time
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#26 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:15 PM

Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?
[/quote]

lol but kelanved is a midget with a cane who couldnt do anything cos of otataral and ash, well he was pew pewing, its all on dancer... Topper is extremely good as we see in later books and this is before (literally) Dancer becomes ascendant so all this really just points out that Dancer is a major Baller when it comes to stabby stabby
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#27 User is offline   Anicetus 

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 11:45 PM

View PostWhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 May 2009 - 02:45 AM, said:

I have been curious about this for a long time, and since I just finally bought and read NoK, I figured I'd get an answer. How good of an assassin/fighter is Surly? I mean she was part of the Old Guard and lived in the Deadhouse with them so she probably picked up some helpful qualities there. She created a group of assassins that rivaled, and then defeated the one created by Dancer, the greatest assassin in the books. I've seen tons of arguments about who the best assassin is on these boards, and while I'm not saying she's on par with Kalam and Apsalar and Cotillion, but I thought we'd get to see some of her skills in this book when she takes her throne. Then we didn't. FML


She is/was the head of the Claw... which is pretty badass (I assume she didn't just do the paperwork).
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#28 User is offline   Anicetus 

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 11:50 PM

View PostVaddon Ra, on 01 December 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Quote

Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?


lol but kelanved is a midget with a cane who couldnt do anything cos of otataral and ash, well he was pew pewing, its all on dancer... Topper is extremely good as we see in later books and this is before (literally) Dancer becomes ascendant so all this really just points out that Dancer is a major Baller when it comes to stabby stabby


I don't know if Kel is completely discounted (super surprising guy who planned everything to a T and knew things no one else knew, cept Dancer) but even if he was out of the fight totally you are right Dancer was/is the king (also when you are that good you start ascending and become more then human).
There is something you canít give up. There is something you want to protect. There is a time you must take a stand no matter what kind of pain awaits us. The man clad in the red coat took up his gun once again, in order to stop the sadness, in order to stop the hate. I keep the word of the red geranium which I was taught so long ago. I keep the courage and determination, deep in my heart.
- Vash the Stampede, The Humanoid Typhoon
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#29 User is offline   Luperci 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:23 PM

[/quote] she's extremely good, (See rotcg) but as to the talon vs claw thing I feel that was in part due to kel and dancer going exploring for years and not being home to deal with politics, so she starts screwing things around and becomes a more skilled and treacherous politician... but in terms of fighting skill and shadow dancing Dancer owns pretty much anything. The only Shadow dance that was better was apsalars.... but even that doesn't mean she is better than Dancer, it just means at that point with the raw emotion/love/tragedy in er heart she killed it.

Dancer wins :smoke: each and every time
[/quote]

I'm a bit confused by the whole Shadow Cult vs. Talon subject. Are these two separate groups? Had the Talon gone underground by this point? From what we saw of the "Grey cloaks" in KoK although some were experienced and tough they didn't seem like professional killers who rivaled the claw. Also we hear of more Talons surviving in Erickson's plot line forward in time so I'm assuming their unrelated.
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#30 User is offline   Luperci 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

View PostAnicetus, on 11 January 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

View PostVaddon Ra, on 01 December 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Quote

Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?


lol but kelanved is a midget with a cane who couldnt do anything cos of otataral and ash, well he was pew pewing, its all on dancer... Topper is extremely good as we see in later books and this is before (literally) Dancer becomes ascendant so all this really just points out that Dancer is a major Baller when it comes to stabby stabby


I don't know if Kel is completely discounted (super surprising guy who planned everything to a T and knew things no one else knew, cept Dancer) but even if he was out of the fight totally you are right Dancer was/is the king (also when you are that good you start ascending and become more then human).


I think the only major difference btw his fighting before and after he became Cotillion was the fact that he could command any shadows at his disposal. I don't think he just became super sayian and had unlimited technique and speed, just the manipulation of shadow and the power from his followers as being their patron god. I like to think his skills were already well honed at this point in the game.
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#31 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:37 PM

View PostRonin, on 24 January 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Quote

she's extremely good, (See rotcg) but as to the talon vs claw thing I feel that was in part due to kel and dancer going exploring for years and not being home to deal with politics, so she starts screwing things around and becomes a more skilled and treacherous politician... but in terms of fighting skill and shadow dancing Dancer owns pretty much anything. The only Shadow dance that was better was apsalars.... but even that doesn't mean she is better than Dancer, it just means at that point with the raw emotion/love/tragedy in er heart she killed it.

Dancer wins :smoke: each and every time


I'm a bit confused by the whole Shadow Cult vs. Talon subject. Are these two separate groups? Had the Talon gone underground by this point? From what we saw of the "Grey cloaks" in KoK although some were experienced and tough they didn't seem like professional killers who rivaled the claw. Also we hear of more Talons surviving in Erickson's plot line forward in time so I'm assuming their unrelated.


Claws are Surly/Laseens personal army. Talons are Dancers personal army. The Shadow Cult work for Dancer as well, he's the Master of the Cult as far as I believe. What kind of role Kelanved has in that Cult is never specified.

Even before the Assassination and usurpation of the Empire, it is safe to assume there was fighting between the two Groups as they viewed for the position of the "Empirial Assassin" trademark.

When Dancer died the Talons had to go under ground and were subsequently hunted down to the point that most of them are dead or have run so far that they are never seen again.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 24 January 2014 - 09:39 PM

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#32 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 10:28 PM

View PostMaybe Apt, on 24 January 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostRonin, on 24 January 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Quote

she's extremely good, (See rotcg) but as to the talon vs claw thing I feel that was in part due to kel and dancer going exploring for years and not being home to deal with politics, so she starts screwing things around and becomes a more skilled and treacherous politician... but in terms of fighting skill and shadow dancing Dancer owns pretty much anything. The only Shadow dance that was better was apsalars.... but even that doesn't mean she is better than Dancer, it just means at that point with the raw emotion/love/tragedy in er heart she killed it.

Dancer wins :smoke: each and every time


I'm a bit confused by the whole Shadow Cult vs. Talon subject. Are these two separate groups? Had the Talon gone underground by this point? From what we saw of the "Grey cloaks" in KoK although some were experienced and tough they didn't seem like professional killers who rivaled the claw. Also we hear of more Talons surviving in Erickson's plot line forward in time so I'm assuming their unrelated.


Even before the Assassination and usurpation of the Empire, it is safe to assume there was fighting between the two Groups as they viewed for the position of the "Empirial Assassin" trademark.

When Dancer died the Talons had to go under ground and were subsequently hunted down to the point that most of them are dead or have run so far that they are never seen again.


Were told that the organisations were actually designed for different purposes the Talons for external threats and assasinations and the Claw for internal policing and suppression. Then a couple of jobs went awry for the Talons, not enough so it was obvious what was happening but enough so people knew. I imagine at this point some wanted to go underground then the Claw launched an all out assault at the Talons, with some escaping maybe by seeing what was happening early. Any talons now are older that have survived or like Baudin where they have inherited their title to a certain extent. It is hinted that there was some support for the Talons from the noble families and this may have alllowed some to be shielded from the Claw.

Alternatively this shielding and similar exercises of power may have led to the purges we see in DG. The nobles were growing in power, making in roads int the miltary as we see in GOTM with connections to an underground network of assasins. Its actually pretty easy to see why Laseen purged the nobility in the first place.
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