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Surly how good?

#1 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 02:45 AM

I have been curious about this for a long time, and since I just finally bought and read NoK, I figured I'd get an answer. How good of an assassin/fighter is Surly? I mean she was part of the Old Guard and lived in the Deadhouse with them so she probably picked up some helpful qualities there. She created a group of assassins that rivaled, and then defeated the one created by Dancer, the greatest assassin in the books. I've seen tons of arguments about who the best assassin is on these boards, and while I'm not saying she's on par with Kalam and Apsalar and Cotillion, but I thought we'd get to see some of her skills in this book when she takes her throne. Then we didn't. FML
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#2 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 02:58 AM

I wont say any more since this is the NoK forum, but if you read RoTCG you get to see her in some action.
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#3 User is offline   KalamMekhar 

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 04:25 AM

yea you do need to read RoTCG to see what she can do.
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#4 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 06:41 AM

She is totally badass in ROTCG.
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#5 User is offline   Mynci 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:40 PM

I still think there are plenty of people who could hand Surley her ass on a plate. Maybe because there just isn't enough from her POV.
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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:58 PM

View PostMynci, on 22 December 2009 - 04:40 PM, said:

I still think there are plenty of people who could hand Surley her ass on a plate. Maybe because there just isn't enough from her POV.


Based on display of skill and strength in RCG, I'd easily put her up besides or just below Dancer when she was in her prime. She's a non magical assassin, but she's pretty freaking scary.
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#7 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 05:12 PM

View PostAptorian, on 22 December 2009 - 04:58 PM, said:

View PostMynci, on 22 December 2009 - 04:40 PM, said:

I still think there are plenty of people who could hand Surley her ass on a plate. Maybe because there just isn't enough from her POV.


Based on display of skill and strength in RCG, I'd easily put her up besides or just below Dancer when she was in her prime. She's a non magical assassin, but she's pretty freaking scary.



Yep.

Just in terms of NoK, keep in mind she was wounded in the fight against Dancer, which means she didn't just sit back and let everyone else wade in - she went knife to knife against the best.

Also, there's a reason she seized control of the Claw and then Empire - sure it didn't work out so well as of the pre-NoK books, but even so, she did become Empress, which is saying something.

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#8 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:25 PM

To me Surly isn't anywhere near Dancer as an assasin/fighter. Just look at the end of the fight scene in Nok, Ash dead and Dancer and Kellanved cut up bad but yeton the other hand, twelve dead Claws, and Topper, Possum and Surly wounded. If Surly (or Topper for that matter) was even close to Dancer, Kellanved and Dancer would never have left the room alive.
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#9 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 07:40 PM

View PostUrizen, on 22 December 2009 - 07:25 PM, said:

To me Surly isn't anywhere near Dancer as an assasin/fighter. Just look at the end of the fight scene in Nok, Ash dead and Dancer and Kellanved cut up bad but yeton the other hand, twelve dead Claws, and Topper, Possum and Surly wounded. If Surly (or Topper for that matter) was even close to Dancer, Kellanved and Dancer would never have left the room alive.


Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 22 December 2009 - 07:41 PM

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#10 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 08:13 PM

View PostAptorian, on 22 December 2009 - 07:40 PM, said:

View PostUrizen, on 22 December 2009 - 07:25 PM, said:

To me Surly isn't anywhere near Dancer as an assasin/fighter. Just look at the end of the fight scene in Nok, Ash dead and Dancer and Kellanved cut up bad but yeton the other hand, twelve dead Claws, and Topper, Possum and Surly wounded. If Surly (or Topper for that matter) was even close to Dancer, Kellanved and Dancer would never have left the room alive.


Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome? Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?


Maybe not, I'm not saying that Surly is bad or average, I'm just saying that Dancer is in a league of his own. if it was close between them then Topper and Surly would be able to tagteam Dancer while Possum rubs out Kellanved and the twelve Redshirt Claws takes out Ash.
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#11 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 09:09 PM

I'm applying comic book science here but Dancer just had to hold ground between everyone and Kellanved, and basically anyone within reach was a target, while the Claw had to try not to stab each other, plus you had Ash doing whatever he did, but the point is those Claw who didn't die were among the best of them. Sure, Dancer is a cut above, but that's saying something for the survivors too.

Surly could have just hung back and let everyone else get cole slawed, but she didn't.

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#12 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:01 AM

View PostAptorian, on 22 December 2009 - 07:40 PM, said:

View PostUrizen, on 22 December 2009 - 07:25 PM, said:

To me Surly isn't anywhere near Dancer as an assasin/fighter. Just look at the end of the fight scene in Nok, Ash dead and Dancer and Kellanved cut up bad but yeton the other hand, twelve dead Claws, and Topper, Possum and Surly wounded. If Surly (or Topper for that matter) was even close to Dancer, Kellanved and Dancer would never have left the room alive.


Imagine if Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield were on one team and on the other team you had Lenox Lewis and a whole bunch of first year lightweight boxer. After the first round, Tyson and Holyfield seem to be unscathed, Lewis has a small cut under the eye and all the first year boxers are knocked the fuck out.

Would you be surprised by this outcome?


Hell yes! What is Holyfield doing on Tysons' side? Does Lewis still have his ears?

Quote

Would you because of this, with out having seen the actual fight, then just dismiss Lewis?


Insufficient data to formulate a reasonable hypothesis. :p

Surly is shit-hot because everything about her was so ostensibly "normal". Sheer ability, determination, hard work and ruthlessness got her to where she is. You have to respect that. She may not have been in Dancers' class, but then again, who was back then? If you can take out 99% of the assassins in the world, and only 1 is clearly better, then I would say you are at the top of your profession.

Because let's face it - anyone can have a bad day. Just ask Tiger Woods. :p

I'd like to add my voice to the "Read RotCG" chorus.

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This post has been edited by Sombra: 23 December 2009 - 06:02 AM

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#13 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:51 AM

Yeah, Surly is kick ass.

I don't think it is fair to compare her to Dancer. Because I have to echo the fact that she took two Hands of Claw, Possum and Topper against him alone. That's right, Kellanved can't be counted - if anything he is a hindrance to Dancer, because Dancer has to protect him from dying while fighting the rest. And look what he does! No-one came away unscathed from that fight. Topper and Possum both seemed to have singular, but still not minor wounds on their person, while Surly was hit with some acid thrown by Ash.
Now, the question is whether Surly took in her best two Hands - in an honest attempt at regicide, or whether she took the mid-tier. If it was the top level guys, then Dancer is un-freaking-believable, given he escaped with Kellanved still alive and both of them able to make it to the Azath.

Surly, of course, still gets lots of cred for KNOWING HER LIMITS. She didn't try to one-on-one the dynamic duo, which was obviously a very sensible move to make. And then we see her in RotCG.

Of course, we know from that how badass Dancer really is, too. :p
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#14 User is offline   EsotericForest 

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:27 PM

Well after reading this topic, I really want to read ROTCG...too bad it isn't released in the United States until April :D
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#15 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 05:48 PM

View PostEsotericForest, on 30 December 2009 - 04:27 PM, said:

Well after reading this topic, I really want to read ROTCG...too bad it isn't released in the United States until April :D

There are several US and Canadian bookstores that have brought over the UK edition. They can be found through Amazon and Chapters. Try to go through the Malazan links, as it helps the site for essentially no money on your part.
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#16 User is offline   EsotericForest 

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:46 PM

View Postamphibian, on 30 December 2009 - 05:48 PM, said:

View PostEsotericForest, on 30 December 2009 - 04:27 PM, said:

Well after reading this topic, I really want to read ROTCG...too bad it isn't released in the United States until April Posted Image

There are several US and Canadian bookstores that have brought over the UK edition. They can be found through Amazon and Chapters. Try to go through the Malazan links, as it helps the site for essentially no money on your part.


Alright thanks, I'll see what I can find. I suppose it'd make sense for me to finnish the Erikson series first though, since I already have all the books released in the series. Of course, that didn't stop me from reading Night of Knives.
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#17 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:30 PM

Well, RotCG ties in, in any case. And we've only got the one book left in the main sequence, so you might as well start the other world-founder's series. :D
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#18 User is offline   EsotericForest 

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 08:53 PM

Well so far in the Erikson series, I'm 180 pages into Midnight Tides...so I still have a lot more to read before I'm waiting on The Crippled God haha. That being said, I went and ordered Return of the Crimson guard...looks too awesome to wait for haha.
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#19 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 05:50 PM

People are talking as if Kellanved is a liability. From what we have read in NoK and RotCG, Kellanved's magic was unrivaled on Quon Tali and it was his presence that tipped the balanced against the Crimson Guard. Skinner could almost match Dassem Ultor on the field but nobody could rival Kellanved in a magic punch fight.

For this reason alone it's impossible to compare Dancer to Surly. Yes, Topper etc had Surly's back, but were those extra Claws a match for Kellanved? Doubt it.

Either way, from my PoV it didn't seem like Kellanved and Dancer were in any way interested in winning the fight in the first place.

From what we know in RotCG, Surly is freaking bad-ass.
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#20 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 23 March 2010 - 06:56 PM

View PostAbberon, on 23 March 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

People are talking as if Kellanved is a liability. From what we have read in NoK and RotCG, Kellanved's magic was unrivaled on Quon Tali and it was his presence that tipped the balanced against the Crimson Guard. Skinner could almost match Dassem Ultor on the field but nobody could rival Kellanved in a magic punch fight.

For this reason alone it's impossible to compare Dancer to Surly. Yes, Topper etc had Surly's back, but were those extra Claws a match for Kellanved? Doubt it.

Either way, from my PoV it didn't seem like Kellanved and Dancer were in any way interested in winning the fight in the first place.

From what we know in RotCG, Surly is freaking bad-ass.


There was a massive pile of otataral dust on the floor of the room brought by Laseen to negate Kellanved. So essentially he was just an old man with a cane.


(though there is no evidence of this, I would have no problem believing that Kellanved was actually more than that and able to defend himself through mundane means, not on the level of dancer, laseen and topper...but enough to take out some claws or stay alive perhaps)
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