[QuickSam]

.... Iron Bars. What the hell was Esselmont thinking? He gives one of the best characters in the entire Malazan series an amazing entry into the book, sunburnt to a crisp, marooned, and then commandeering a ship, which you believe will lead him onto a rather impressively bloody convergence somewhere down the line and then completely ignores him for the entire thing. Why why why? A two page bit at the end, "oh let's take this guy to the wall" No fighting described, no emotional description from Iron Bars.

Supremely disappointed.

What did you guys think?

[MTS]

I think he didn't put much of Iron Bars in because he wasn't going to be there for the main convergence at Li Heng and his story didn't really fit in with everything else. Or he may not have had time. Who knows? I think he created a perfect set up for some Iron Bars action in his next book, which will feature on Korel and deal with the Wall and the Stormriders. This opens up the opportunity to see some badassery from Iron Bars. I didn't really mind not seeing him tbh, as we had plenty of awesome to tide us through. I mean, Topper vs. Cowl? Dassem vs. Skinner? Shimmer vs. the Claw? Awesome!

Besides, we do see some fighting. What about when the slavers first find him, and Iron Bars basically kicks the crap out of the crew and takes a bolt to the chest? There's some action and tension when the Seguleh show up as well. I understand your complaining, but he really was only put in so when Stonewielder comes out we don't pull a "WTF? How did Iron Bars get on the wall?" I think it's a really good segue into the next novel, and means we'll be seeing more Crimson Guard.

[Abyss]

I think that was set up for an ongoing multi-book running plot where ultimately it's Iron Bars who takes out Skinner.

I thought his scenes were awesome, and while i was also a little dissappointed that he never made it to the party, the above theory sustains me.


- Abyss, ...also, hey, we got Seguleh action...

[QuickSam]

ok, valid points.
i look forward to reading more about him in Stonewielder. And im not complaining about the lack of fights in Return of the Crimson Guard, there were more than enough.

But it would'nt have been too hard for a little more Iron Bars. My appetite was whetted with the little i got, but i want more damnit! Now!

[Aptorian]

I thought Iron Bars bits were awesome as well, but really didn't even need to be in the book. It's not "tight" writing if you have all kinds of storylines that go no where and don't connect with the other plots.

It is probably a set-up for the later books, and the description of how much damage an Avowed can take and the Segulah bits were cool info dumps, but really, it could have been done with more finesse.

I do how ever think the ending was fitting. Iron Bars and the crew has gone through so much, and then they don't even make it.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Spoiler

It'd be cool if they somehow ended back up on Lether, and got found by the KCCM Shi'gal. Iron Bars could take any of those positions any day.

[Fist Gamet]

I thought it fitted perfectly with the SE/ICE philosophy of evil (ie. treat us mean and keep us keen!)

TBH, Iron Bars isn't one of the characters in the books that captures my imagination, certainly not so much as a dozen others I could name.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I thought it fitted perfectly with ICE's demonstrated talent for ruining characters we already know and love.

[foolio]

Quote

I thought it fitted perfectly with ICE's demonstrated talent for ruining characters we already know and love.

Agreed

This post has been edited by foolio: 15 June 2009 - 08:51 PM

[QuickSam]

Just wondering who you think he has ruined and how?

I've enjoyed Knight of Knives and The Return of the Crimson Guard, without thinking that any of the characters have been lessened in my humble opinion.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Apart from Iron Bars, Laseen & Tayschrenn spring to mind. I disliked the character of Dassem Ultor in this book (he's a tortured hero! he contains much torment! this man is so complex! it felt like poorly written fanfiction).

Ameron & Toc the Elder were also utterly disappointing, though it would be more accurate to say that we knew of them, rather than knew them.

[Use Of Weapons]

I'd say that some characters he did well (mainly one's we'd never seen 'on screen' but had only heard of). In this list I'd put:
Blues
Dassem's Sword
Cartheron & Urko Crust
Choss
Braven Tooth
Osserc
Coltaine
Shimmer
Iron Bars

Others he did poorly:
Topper
Laseen
Tayschrenn
Korbolo Dom
Mallick Rel
Nil and Nether
K'azz
Corlo
Dassem

[MTS]

On that first list we've seen every one of the people you mention on screen, bar Coltaine, Shimmer and Choss. I felt he did those characters fairly well though. As to the others, I'd disagree - the only ones I think he disappointed me with were Laseen, K'azz and Dassem. We didn't see enough of Corlo and Topper to really make an opinion, to be honest, Dom and Rel I thought were faithful to what we'd seen before and I'm undecided as to what I think about Nil and Nether.

[QuickSam]

i appreciate you guys answering but no one has answered HOW he ruined the characters. I don't expect a list for every character, i'm just curious to see if it was the emotional content, or maybe the way they fought etc etc.

[Abyss]

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 06:43 AM, said:

...
Others he did poorly:
Topper
Laseen
Tayschrenn
Korbolo Dom
Mallick Rel
Nil and Nether
K'azz
Corlo
Dassem

Topper we only saw briefly in GotM and DG, and i thought the twist of him going nuts in the IW to spring the ambush on Cowl was a nice touch.

Tayshrenn has only the scene at the end where he fixes the rift. It was more overt than we're used to seeing but look at the end of of MoI and then tell me he doesn't have the potential to get pissed and go big.

Mallick and Korbolo were, imnsho, dead on.

Nil and Nether i tend to agree with you, but then, they didn't get all that much development previously, even tho they were in DG, HoC and TB. Corlo, not quite the strong the supporting character he was in MT.

K'azz we've never seen so i assume you mean you didn't like him.

Laseen... i totally utterly and completingly disagree. ICE pulled off miracles with this character.

I was fine with the Dassem characterization. It built nicely to when we see him in TtH.

- Abyss, character.

[Dolorous Menhir]

QuickSam, on Jun 17 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

i appreciate you guys answering but no one has answered HOW he ruined the characters. I don't expect a list for every character, i'm just curious to see if it was the emotional content, or maybe the way they fought etc etc.

Laseen - I disliked the portrayal, but am unable to provide a specific example.

Tayschrenn - the character seemed poorly thought out. Main series Tayschrenn has, over a long time, been built up as someone who is inactive and "disinterested" for clear and good reasons. He thought in the long term, he was waiting for something. RotCG Tayschrenn was a stoned-out goth who just didn't seem to care that much (ICE's reliance on "lanky hair" as a character trait is particularly annoying). The author then proceeds to waste Tayschrenn, and Laseen, in a conflict that I frankly didn't care about. I know they are not 100% confirmed deader than dead, but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth to see a character you have followed for a long time, and grown to know and like, killed in a side-story that simply is not up to scratch.

Dassem Ultor - as I said before, I do not like ICE's tendency to show characters in some kind of predictable, mythic way. I am struggling to communicate it, but his Dassem Ultor felt like a walking stereotype (Dassem-lite). Ereko was constantly humbled, awed, struck by his companion. It does not feel like character being built, or built upon. It feels like posturing. There's no depth.

Iron Bars - can't point to a character flaw in this book, but he was wasted in storyline terms.

The point I am trying to make, is that Esslemont did not do justice, in my view, to established characters. This is very disappointing for a fan of the series. I'm not being blindly biased either - NoK was genuinely good, and I think a big part of that was that he was

a ) working on a small scale

b ) writing through characters that were genuinely his to create in the reader's mind (Temper, Kiska)

He's clearly much better at that small-bore level, than writing what is basically a sub-standard installment of the main series.

edit: now that I think about it some more, I also hated Esslemont's Osric. The everpresent "lanky hair" again played a part in that.

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 17 June 2009 - 06:20 PM

[Aptorian]

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

I'd say that some characters he did well (mainly one's we'd never seen 'on screen' but had only heard of). In this list I'd put:

Blues

We didn't know blues to to start with, so I had no impression of him. I thought he was interesting, a little bit too much sorcerer and not enough kick ass warrior. But I liked the Jade Statue bit. Still, it didn't help him that he starred in the stupidest and least meaningful storyline of the book.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Dassem's Sword

I loved the part where the Wild Man and Temper met up. I was all, FUCK YEAH, THE SWORDIEST SWODSTERS! BROMANCE!

But I didn't think Temper was handled well at all. For some reason Esslemont changed the name to Temp and completely ignored Tempers role as Deadhouse guardian in NoK. Absolutely no clarification of Tempers status or if he still had any Azath juice running through him. I'm guessing he didn't otherwise he would have crushed Ryl.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Cartheron & Urko Crust

Urko was cool. I disliked the nickname "Shatterer" it didn't sound right to me, but he was awesome. How ever I didn't like how Esslemont handled any of the Old Guard. I found it "unlikely" that Urko just quiet his isolation and willingly returned to the game of thrones, just like that.

Cartheron Crust I thought was handled very pooly. None of his scenes made any sense. They displayed the patentet "Random character appears in insane scenario" of the Malazan books, but his storylines didn't connect with the rest of the book and it made no sense that he stole all the amunition and apparently had gone insane. How did he manage to steal tons of ammo to start with? And where did he go afterwards?

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Choss

Who? Can't even remember who this is. Was he the guy set to protect Ghelel or was he some random commander? Was he that guy that rode with the Wickans? Didn't like neither one. Not developed well enough as characters.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Braven Tooth

Braven Tooth was braven tooth, he has a special place in my heart for naming Jumpy. Otherwise he wasn't terrible impressive.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Osserc

I both loved and hated the Osserc we see in this book.

I loved how Osserc seemed like a much more feral and mysterious god than Rake and the rest of the "civilised" gods, but I disliked the the role he played in the book. Yet another storyline that seemingly went no where and was very poorly handled. It seems as though Ossercs prologue was put in there for no reason at all, except for being awesome.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Coltaine

Pah. Coltaine was just a prop put in to make the fanboys scream.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Shimmer

I liked her. I liked the devils advocate role she played to the CGs intentions. I would have liked it if she had died.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Iron Bars

I think he was perfect. Basically, all of IBs scenes were pure awesome. While I thought it was poetic that Iron Bars and the crew went through all that and never arrived in time, I also thought it was yet another pointless story thread that went nowhere and added nothing to the books over all story.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Others he did poorly:
Topper

Yet another character in a storyline that didn't really make any sense. I liked that he had apparently gone insane and that we got to see just why he was the Clawmaster. But as a character there was no resemblance with the Erikson Topper.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Laseen

I thought Lasseen was AWESOME. I believed all along that she was competent and had plans within plans, so I was delighted to see her having all that control and planning set up.

I strongly disliked her end. Not the fact that she died, but the fact that Esslemont completely ignored that important death. ST and Cots should have been there dammit. So should Dassem. Her death scene was unworthy.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Tayschrenn

Tayschren has always been a mystery. His personality was always erratic. We see three different Tays in GOTM, MOI and BH. So what ever Esslemont did was no skin off my nose, if anything I thought he remained faithfull to the Tay of NOK.

But the end battle was awesome. Cool cliffhanger as to his fate after the ending.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Korbolo Dom

I was disappointed that Esslemont only painted Dom as an idiot. I would have liked to see Dom kicking a little ass. The guy was a high fist and competent commander. I think that was ignored.

How ever I thought his ending was fitting. One viper biting the other.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Mallick Rel

I didn't like him in this book. He wasn't coniving enough. Not nearly enough control. I would also have liked to have seen him himself a target of assassins. Lasseens own assassins hunting him like Rels assassins was hunting her.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Nil and Nether

Meh. I didn't really notice a difference.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

K'azz

Kazz and his story was handled terrible. The whole hunt to find him, the supposed binding and him then just popping up with no fuss, was not good story telling. And as a general/king/leader he was a great disappointment. He should at least have been able to kick a little ass.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Corlo

Meh. Didn't notice a difference.

jitsukerr, on Jun 17 2009, 12:43 PM, said:

Dassem

I liked Esslemonts Dassem much more than the Dassem of TTH. Esslemonst Dassem is a man nearly insane, driven by a thirst for vengeance and uncontrolable rage. I thought it was more believable than the chatty Dassem of TTH.

[Use Of Weapons]

I think on the whole the comments above suggest a common theme for people's likes/dislikes about how ICE handles characters. He doesn't seem to do complexity well. Thus, characters with complex motivations and/or history or personailty come off as less mysterious/conniving/driven, and just aren't as well-drawn as SE's equivalents. So for new characters, or for those for which SE has done little development, one can go either way. But for established, well-understood and prominent characters, he tends to do them a disservice.

[Newbee]

Yeh loved nil and nether in DG. RoCG did them a dsiservice, they still seem adolesent, i mean they were killing demi gods back in DG and they gave eveything surviving the chain of dogs. In my mind they should have at least semi ascendant power by now and at least godlike status within the wickan community. The wickans as a whole were dissappointing.

[QuickSam]

Thank you, i really appreciate the in depth replies. I guess i would have to re-read the entire series in chronological order to really see how i feel about each character.