[bubba]

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Number of downloads: 13

[Cougar]

It seems that this cartoon, through use of language that is misleading is constructing a kind of false correlation between events and causes of the Holocaust and modern attempts to seperate the influence of religion from politics. It's kind of an insidious and pretty unpleasant way of looking at things because what it does is say:

"The Holocaust was a bad thing, surely you don't disagree with that?"

"well the reason for the holocaust was this xy argument oversimplified to the point where it could be applied to any number of scenarios."

at that point the more discerning reader should probably give up; the argument here has constructed almost a straw man type of proposal which then invites:

"Isn't that similar to you trying to promote the secularisation of politics in country x (USA here)"

It's not, if you accept the first part of the argument that indeed the holocaust can be explained as "politcal extremisim vs religious freedom" then you are fucked because you are now unable to argue in favour of one situation without approving the holocaust.

I think this is a fairly shameful and shabby attempt to gain the moral high ground by misrepresenting something and using a horrific chapter of history to gain cheap political capital.

The Nazi party didn't object to Judaism because of it's ideals or teachings, although there may have been some attempts to construct anti-semitc arguments based on lies about the nature of the religion. It victimised the jews out of a combination of materialistic self-interest, the need to create a scapegoat and the misguided racism of Hitler and some of his cronies. This is a gross oversimilification but you should see the point.

[bubba]

Go back to believing in nothing then.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I think you're overthinking this. The point was that we need to always be wary of extremism and intolerance. The explanation might be a bit garbled, but that's not the point.

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 20 May 2009 - 09:39 PM

[Cougar]

I'm basing this on what I know of Bubba and how sick he is of people having a go at him for defending Christianity on the boards. I don't beleive he would have posted it in the religion forum if he didn't feel it neatly made a point he wishes to emphasise. I don't think this is particularly unfair on Bubbs.

Non Sequitur is a satirical cartoon strip and it's obvious what the political comment is here. What I'm really objecting too is the gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of the holocaust to make an unrelated point about modern secular politics and the challenge which broken down is"Object to this and you are saying there was justification for murdering loads of jews, gays, political dissidents, slavs, gypsies etc" which is very underhand.

[Zanth13]

I dont know, I dont get the same message as Cougar,

I just see it as a generic reminder against extremism, and using a dark time in our worlds past to highlight the hazards...

its the only positive thing we can get from the holocaust now...

[Shinrei]

Cougar, you may think this cartoon is misleading based on who posted it and because you understand his agenda.

However, the author of the cartoon is pretty liberal, so I doubt that what you suggest is actually Wiley's intention.

[Cougar]

I didn't say it was an illiberal attitude, just misleading, it says what it says, it can't have any other agenda.

Why Bubba posted it is his business, but I'd bet my ass it chimed with him because he feels it makes a comprison with the way christianity is treated (especially on this here board) with something that is universally acknowledged as not only bad, but genuinely evil.

[Gem Windcaster]

Did it hit a nerve? Because I don't see how it is misleading, unless you twist the interpretation. Maybe you want it to be misleading so you don't have to consider the criticism it gives. Intolerance takes on many forms and faces, and the origin is always the same. Hiding behind some argument that "well at least I'm not Hitler" doesn't exactly help, you know.

I think that message is for all of us, because we all tend to be intolerant in some form. I think the reminder of the intolerance - and ignorance - the Holocaust represents is something we all benefits from pondering about. Unless you consider yourself a human without fault.

[RodeoRanch]

I got the same impression as Cougar did.

[Obdigore]

And here I was under the impression that the cartoon was attempting to tell people to think for themselves instead of getting caught up like the herd animal humans are and doing or agreeing with what anyone in charge says.

Silly me.

[Gem Windcaster]

Obdigore, on May 21 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

And here I was under the impression that the cartoon was attempting to tell people to think for themselves instead of getting caught up like the herd animal humans are and doing or agreeing with what anyone in charge says.

Silly me.

Obdi, you know I love you. Now where is the rep when you need it?


- Gem, in desperate need of a rep system.

[Cougar]

Gem, try to keep the discussion about the topic rather than trying to insult me, by doing that you only betray your own prejudices.

If you look at the second post in this thread I have made some very clear factual statements about why arguing the Nazis had something against Jews because of their religion is incorrect. I'm not going to repeat them as it would just be the same stuff and I don't believe any amount of clarification would make it any clearer

If you try to seperate your feelings on Church vs State, secularism, religious fundamentalism vs secular extermism etc from the argument and simply engage with it from a perspective of historical accuracy it's very straight forward.

If you view this simply as a general reminder then it's still sloppy, it says very little more than; 'don't forget if you allow a bunch of racist, xenophobic thugs to run a country there is a good chance they'll do some bad stuff'

This post has been edited by Cougar: 21 May 2009 - 10:12 PM

[Wry]

The cartoon does make the mistake of implying the Jews were persecuted by nazis because of their religion, rather than the various correct reasons cougar gives in his post.

However it is very apparent that the cartoon is about political extremism and the dangers of allowing it to run unchecked, rather than castigating the non-religious

Cougar, you seem to be more irritated by the inference that Bubba means it to warn against criticism of Christianity, but that's a moot point until Bubba makes a comment one way or the other.

That said, alot of my sympathy was lost by post no3, what i think is beneath you Bubba

[Cougar]

Wry, on May 21 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

Cougar, you seem to be more irritated by the inference that Bubba means it to warn against criticism of Christianity, but that's a moot point until Bubba makes a comment one way or the other.

That said, alot of my sympathy was lost by post no3, what i think is beneath you Bubba

I'll let commrade Bubbushka comment on it himself but I think that was meant as a joke cos of my sig. I've nothing against Bubba at all we've had a few chats and I count him as one of the good guys, to be fair he's put up with a lot from some of the anti-religion trolls like the never-missed Terez. As I've made clear I suspect he posted this because he felt it was apposite given the savaging religion gets, I could be wrong.

[Gem Windcaster]

You screwed up my post, Cougar, buddy, I edited it, but whatever it's saved for posterity in your quote below, so nevermind.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 21 May 2009 - 10:59 PM

[Grief]

Wasn't the Nazi oppression of the Jews not actually based on religion so much, as what they believed about the Jewish "race". For example, you could be persecuted simply by being descended from a Jew, by having Jewish "blood" even if you didn't follow the religion.

[Gem Windcaster]

Grief, basically, the Nazis saw the jews as part of the religion no matter what. Well, I can't explain it any better without going into lengthy details.

[Cougar]

I'm going to have to issue a massive apology to Gem, I pressed edit instead of reply and posted in her post.

Whoops!

my reply was:

Sorry Gem but I don't know what your intimate knowledge is but the Nazis classified the Jews as a race (bullshit I know), distinct from other Europeans. At no point have I argued that the Nazis did not persue a systematic and planned campaign against the Jews. But, crucially they did not object to the tenets of judaism (except as I said in some retrospective attempts to construct jutification for their actions) as a religion, in fact ideologically they were irreligious. My knowledge was drawn from the fact that the Nazis and Denazification were my specialism in my Masters Degree in History.

The subtle but important difference here is that the Jews were not singled out for their religious stance, in modern Europe or America the very problem between the relgious and the secular is based on the nature of belief, no one is suggesting that Baptists are a seperate race with inferior characteristics are they.

Oh, and 'buddy'? WTF?

This post has been edited by Cougar: 21 May 2009 - 10:57 PM

[bubba]

Hello everybody.

@ Wry the third post was a jab at Cougar. It was light hearted, hence the smilie. Cougar and me live on different side of this debate but we are able to rise above it and remain friends.

My point for posting this thread. This cartoon hit a very strong cord with me. The last panel is the one that rang the loudest. Most that know me know I'm not one of the twenntysomethings that inhabit this forum. I'm 44 years old and have watched society change over that time. To get a grasp of how old I really am, just think, the Brady Bunch was on prime-time when I was a kid. So you have to understand, I have seen a lot of change. But for me the most alarming thing I have seen in my time alive is the inter-net generation. With this huge communication revolution came the end of the local society. We no longer are brought up living in a neighborhood in a town in a state in a country. Our lives are now influenced by the world, and more importantly, the tides of it's thought. And the predominant view of the "Internet" is that all religion is bad and should go the way of the dodo(extinction). Now this is my how I see it. So please don't go on some crusade to prove me wrong. This is my point of view. Why it is that way? My belief is that the reason behind it is the liberal education systems and teachers.(Again my point of view) Today most Christians are home schooled because of that. The point was to point out the lynch Mob mentality of us human beings. And how quickly we can forget how stupid we are as a species. A few well spoken people can whip up a mob in a minute. The point was to remind the young twenntysomethings of that, and I think that post does it well.