[dawnkiller]

I'm sticking this here because I'm going to pull from all the books (NoK and RotCG included) and apparently have too much time on my hands, so I figured I might as well have a speculation-fest about Edgewalker's aspect.

From his earliest convo with Cotillion in tBH we know Edgewalker is, or was, an elemental force/elder. His technical name appears to be Tracer of Edges. Kind of tough to pin what he is, since the few times he's been active it's mostly been by getting people the hell out of Shadow (ousting ornery beings from RotCG, repelling the "alien" Riders and denying Jhenna entrance to Shadow in NoK, etc). At this point he's basically the old guy that yells at kids to get off his lawn. The following are a few relevant quotes about his relationship to Shadow and things that may hint at his nature.

Re: Edgewalker said:

....he felt a presence at his side, and turned to see a tall, skeletal creature, bedecked in rags, walking to match his pace. Not close enough to reach out and touch, but too close for Cotillion's comfort nonetheless. 'Edgewalker. It has been some time since I last saw you.'
'I cannot say the same of you, Cotillion. I walk--'
'Yes, I know,' Cotillion cut in, 'you walk paths unseen.'
'By you. The Hounds do not share your failing.'
Cotillion frowned at the creature, then glanced back, to see Baran thirty paces back, keeping its distance. Massive head low to the ground, eyes glowing bruised crimson. 'You are being stalked.'
'It amuses them, I imagine.' --TBH p.47

'I do not take your orders.'
'Perhaps I should summon the Hounds to tear you limb from limb.'
'They would not do so.'
'Truly? Why?'
'Because we are all kin. Slaves to Shadow.'
'Ah, I see. You have been taken by Shadow. You are a slave to the House.' -- Edgewalker and Shadowthrone, NoK. p286

'You can read my thoughts?'
'I possess no such omniscience. Although to one such as you, it might appear so. But I have existed ages beyond your reckoning, Cotillion. All patterns are known to me, for they have been played out countless times before. Given what approaches us all, it was not hard to predict.' --TBH p.49

'You have called me here to . . . mitigate.'
'I have.'
'This has been a long time in coming.'
'You might think that way, Edgewalker.' --Hood and Edgewalker, TtH p.3

Now I'm going to provide some quotes about the Errant, Master of the Tiles, the Walker Among the Holds (RG p.239), yadda yadda. We know he is the earlier counterpart to Paran, Master of the Deck, the Wanderer Within the Sword.

Re: The Errant said:

A pattern was taking shape, incrementally, inexorably. Yet the Errant, once known as Turudal Brizad, Consort to Queen Janall, could not discern its meaning. . . . Oh, he had known times of violence; he had walked the ashes of dead empires, but his own sense of destiny was, even then, ever untarnished, inviolate and absolute. And to make matters worse, patterns were his personal obsession, held to with a belief in his mastery of that arcane language, a mastery beyond challenge. --RG p.71

Edging askew the course of the fates -- I was once far more. Master of the Tiles. All that power in those scribed images, the near-words from a time when no written words existed. They would have starved without my blessing. Withered. --RG p.300

When Paran speculated on the cause of Draconus' wagon in MoI he observed: 'Before Houses there were Holds. Both fixed, both stationary. Settled. Before settlement . . . there was wandering.' (MoI p.174) The Houses and the Holds both have a master. What about the forces that came before, before even language?

Edgewalker is now apparently a servant of Shadow, which implies that isn't his original aspect -- NoK indicates he's been trapped by it. The seems like a ways to fall for a Master of . . . whatever . . . but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. The Errant, though confined to Letheras by the events of the series, was present for the collapse of the First Empire and engaged the Forkul Assail in war before his power diminished, leaving him with an ever-dwindling sphere of influence. Gods don't age well, apparently.

Though the jury's still out on Paran, both Edgewalker and the Errant are familiar with patterns. While that in itself doesn't necessarily mean much, as it could be just a sign that Edgewalker is a crotchety old man who's seen it all before, it was kind of interesting Hood invited him to the meeting where, presumably, he planned his own death to "mitigate" circumstance. And, from what we've seen, the primary purpose of the respective Masters is to sanction or deny Houses, Holds, and Unaligneds. It might make sense to have someone with that sort of experience involved in the death of the Lord of Death -- death being a concept old enough that we've seen (I think) Eres holy places devoted to gathering it. The ensuing power vacuum could have gotten messy. He was also present the night Cotillion and Shadowthrone ascended and took control of Shadow, and noted it was far from the first change-over he'd ever witnessed. While he calls Cotillion a usurper, he seems to sanction their presence.

There's also the title Tracer of Edges. Later in tBH Cotillion speculates about "lost elementals" -- stuff like time, silence, sound, etc., and all the problematic bleed between them. It's possible that Edgewalker's capacity was to define boundaries between these elements, some of which later included realms. The Tiles and the Deck seem always to need an unaligned guiding hand. If something came before, it seems likely the same rules would attach.

Disclaimer: I'm in a slow, non-linear reread of the books, and as such I have massive memory gaps despite the ability to pull gratuitous quotes. Feel free to point out hillarious inaccuracies.

[Aptorian]

I like this theory. It's probable. But on the other hand this can only be guesswork. It's all circumstancial. We have no real evidence for or against this.

You also have to remember one thing. Edgewalker could be lying. He may not be an Elemental at all.

He tried to usurp shadow once, not a very Elemental being'ish way of going around things. Certainly not if he was once the one giving such places a footing.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Maybe he's a primal aspect. Like the Deragoth.

P.S. Forgive my laziness, could someone condesne his theory?

[MTS]

Aptorian, on May 9 2009, 03:14 PM, said:

I like this theory. It's probable. But on the other hand this can only be guesswork. It's all circumstancial. We have no real evidence for or against this.

You also have to remember one thing. Edgewalker could be lying. He may not be an Elemental at all.

He tried to usurp shadow once, not a very Elemental being'ish way of going around things. Certainly not if he was once the one giving such places a footing.

So he's an elemental with ambition? It hardly seems outside the realm of possibility. Remember, Ampelas and co. are the very essence of their warren's power, yet they still wanted more i.e. control of shadow.

[dawnkiller]

Aptorian, on May 9 2009, 12:14 AM, said:

I like this theory. It's probable. But on the other hand this can only be guesswork. It's all circumstancial. We have no real evidence for or against this.

You also have to remember one thing. Edgewalker could be lying. He may not be an Elemental at all.

He tried to usurp shadow once, not a very Elemental being'ish way of going around things. Certainly not if he was once the one giving such places a footing.

I think you're right in that he's not a true elemental force, at least as they're traditionally thought of -- he did tell Cotillion "you may consider me . . . an elemental force", which to me implied that while he's about even in terms of antiquity and necessity, he's not truly one of them -- much like how Paran isn't of the Houses himself, which is a big part of his purpose in the Deck.

As for trying to usurp Shadow, I think it would depend on why he did so (which we don't know). The three dragons chained in Shadow implied in tBH that the reason they sought the throne was that what was sundered was vulnerable. They may have been lying to make themselves look better, but the sentiment is basically true considering the CG in particular seems to be using the warren as freely as Bidithal in a camp full of unsupervised minors . . . okay, I kind of hate myself for that one. Er, anyway, so far Edgewalker's motivations seem primarily to be keeping external forces out of Shadow, which could either be a sort of geas or, from a very generous reading, Edgewalker continuing his efforts to keep Shadow strictly delineated and "pure", maintaining the seperation he originally imposed. He could have tried to claim it to keep it safe from meddling.

And just to confuse the hell out of things, here's a could-be-interpreted-as-anything quote from Edgewalker's thoughts after he meets an ascended Shadowthrone for the first time:

Quote

How many times, he wondered, had he heard that very same conceit from a claimant to the Throne? Would they never learn? How long, he wondered, would this one last? Why was it none of the long chain of hopefuls ever bothered to ask why the Throne should be empty in the first place? After all, perhaps there was a reason.
Still, this one's residence should bode new and interesting times for Shadow. He should be thankful to these men, for in the end the one thing their presence might bring to the enduring eternity of the Realm was the potential for change and thus, the continuing possibility of...progression. -- NoK p281

Quote

P.S. Forgive my laziness, could someone condesne his theory?

"Edgewalker is the equivalent of a Master of the Deck from a time predating Holds and Houses." (I should have done that myself, but alas, was in the throes of Friday Night Braindeath.)

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 09 May 2009 - 03:33 PM

[D'rek]

Hmm, interesting idea. Not something I'd ever considered before. Of course, I like throwing wrenches into ideas, so here goes:

Edgewalker was a defender of Shadow/Emurlahn at the time of the sundering. As Rake and Killy discuss teaming up to cleanse Emurlahn, Rake notes that Edgewalker is busy elsewhere, implying that he could/should be performing the duty of defending Emurlahn they are about to undertake. Now this in and of itself does not mean he was a slave of Shadow by that point, as Master of Wandering he could possibly be expected to defend a realm from sundering, maybe, but you'll have to incorporate this somehow into your theory.

And furthermore I would point out that there's not really any reason Edgewalker can't be an elemental force. As per Cotillion, elements can be *anything* and not all "elemental beings" are the original set of MD and FL (and Tiam?). Mael, for example, would be considered the water elemental but he presumably came much later and is much more akin in his existance to the not-definitively-quite-as-elemental-elder-gods like Draconus or Killy...

[dawnkiller]

The Fake!, on May 9 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

Edgewalker was a defender of Shadow/Emurlahn at the time of the sundering. As Rake and Killy discuss teaming up to cleanse Emurlahn, Rake notes that Edgewalker is busy elsewhere, implying that he could/should be performing the duty of defending Emurlahn they are about to undertake. Now this in and of itself does not mean he was a slave of Shadow by that point, as Master of Wandering he could possibly be expected to defend a realm from sundering, maybe, but you'll have to incorporate this somehow into your theory.

Speaking of absence from Shadow, for me one of the weird things was that he showed up in Hood's realm in the TtH prologue. I don't think that was a one-off, either, because in tBH Cotillion observes that he hasn't seen Edgewalker in Shadow for a while. While Edgewalker does point out that there are paths he walks through Shadow that Cotillion can't see, it seems that, though a servant of Shadow, he's also not bound exclusively to it or its edges, though it certainly seems to be the one he's got the most investment in protecting. (This gels with what we've seen of the Hounds as well, since they can manifest on Wu and get pulled into Dragnipur's warren, etc. It still begs the question of just how enslaved the guy is, though.)

As for just what Edgewalker's responsibilities were during the time of the sundering, I suppose it's not immediately beyond the realm of possibility that would have been one of his responsibilities -- considering Shadow's shattering created a ton of free-floating fragments that just seem to squiggle around (as per Apsalar's observations in tBH), if his responsibility regards establishing borders and edges he might be expected to be involved. On the other hand, it might also have just been an all-hands-on-deck instance for elder gods -- I can't think of any particular reason Killy and Mael would have been there, either, except for the fact that sundered realms really screw with the power structure.

Quote

And furthermore I would point out that there's not really any reason Edgewalker can't be an elemental force. As per Cotillion, elements can be *anything* and not all "elemental beings" are the original set of MD and FL (and Tiam?). Mael, for example, would be considered the water elemental but he presumably came much later and is much more akin in his existance to the not-definitively-quite-as-elemental-elder-gods like Draconus or Killy...

Yeah, he could be one of the "lost elementals" -- I just couldn't speculate on that because I'm not quite creative enough to come up with anything Cotillion himself didn't, and I doubt it was any he listed. <G> I suppose it could be something like the very concept of boundaries . . . like at what point shadow stops and dark begins, or somesuch. (Considering how liminal Shadow is, crossing with Meanas, Rashan, Mockra and so forth, that may explain his involvement with it.)

Personally, one of my questions for my own theory would be why Edgewalker, if he were one of the very first, is humanoid. He's mistaken for an Imass because of his dessication, but he's wearing armor and is not to my recollection described as squat and bow-legged in the manner of the Imass -- he's hunched, but I think that's about it. Of course, the Imass were mostly into animism and spirit veneration, so I'm not sure how appropriate such an aspect would be to them. He might have come afterwards. Yet we know the Errant was around for the First Empire . . . which, I suppose, preceded K'rul's creation of the warrens, because they were unknown in Lether, and I believe Kallor came after its collapse. And . . . okay, I have no idea where I was going with this anymore. I think I'm going to leave it at me not knowing quite where Edgewalker would have fit in the timeline of elder gods. (I know gods change with the times, as per Mael not always appearing fishy and Osserc being, I believe, more humanoid than reptilian now, but the guy is also walking around apparently dead, so I'm not sure how much he cares about appearances.)

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 9 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

The Fake!, on May 9 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

Edgewalker was a defender of Shadow/Emurlahn at the time of the sundering. As Rake and Killy discuss teaming up to cleanse Emurlahn, Rake notes that Edgewalker is busy elsewhere, implying that he could/should be performing the duty of defending Emurlahn they are about to undertake. Now this in and of itself does not mean he was a slave of Shadow by that point, as Master of Wandering he could possibly be expected to defend a realm from sundering, maybe, but you'll have to incorporate this somehow into your theory.

Speaking of absence from Shadow, for me one of the weird things was that he showed up in Hood's realm in the TtH prologue. I don't think that was a one-off, either, because in tBH Cotillion observes that he hasn't seen Edgewalker in Shadow for a while. While Edgewalker does point out that there are paths he walks through Shadow that Cotillion can't see, it seems that, though a servant of Shadow, he's also not bound exclusively to it or its edges, though it certainly seems to be the one he's got the most investment in protecting. (This gels with what we've seen of the Hounds as well, since they can manifest on Wu and get pulled into Dragnipur's warren, etc. It still begs the question of just how enslaved the guy is, though.)

As for just what Edgewalker's responsibilities were during the time of the sundering, I suppose it's not immediately beyond the realm of possibility that would have been one of his responsibilities -- considering Shadow's shattering created a ton of free-floating fragments that just seem to squiggle around (as per Apsalar's observations in tBH), if his responsibility regards establishing borders and edges he might be expected to be involved. On the other hand, it might also have just been an all-hands-on-deck instance for elder gods -- I can't think of any particular reason Killy and Mael would have been there, either, except for the fact that sundered realms really screw with the power structure.

Actually I meant this more in that we presume that Emurlahn had Edur overlords until Scabby murdered the Edur royal line and set in motion the sundering of the realm. People and creatures like Oleg or the dragons trying to take over Shadow and, successful or not, eventually getting enslaved by Shadow would only have come after the sundering, but Edgewalker is already doing his role of defending Shadow while the sundering is taken place, leaving little time for him to have vied for the vacant throne and been enslaved by the realm...

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 9 2009, 11:31 PM, said:

Actually I meant this more in that we presume that Emurlahn had Edur overlords until Scabby murdered the Edur royal line and set in motion the sundering of the realm. People and creatures like Oleg or the dragons trying to take over Shadow and, successful or not, eventually getting enslaved by Shadow would only have come after the sundering, but Edgewalker is already doing his role of defending Shadow while the sundering is taken place, leaving little time for him to have vied for the vacant throne and been enslaved by the realm...

Ah, okay. Hm, yeah, I'd say that's a reasonable assumption, since KG and KL both have Tiste rulers. Regarding who made tries for Shadow, we know that at least two of the three dragons were aspected in that direction already. Eloth was mistress of Meanas/Illusion, Mockra and Thyr, and Ampelas was the shaper of Kurald Emurlahn. Kalse declined to give his aspect, but given the theme so far I'd hazard to guess his was Rashan -- they would then cover all three aspects of Shadow we've heard named, giving them a nominal right to the warren. It may be that Edgewalker, if he was aspected to/around Shadow specifically (rather than my theory) would have thought his position legitimized his claim.

On the other hand, that NoK quote I put up earlier about Edgewalker wondering why no one thought the Shadow throne was meant to be empty puzzles me. This might be a truth he learned only after he made a grab for it, or else he's enslaved for some reason other than trying to command it. Is it explicitly stated, rather than speculated, that he grabbed for the throne? It sounds familiar, but I don't have the scene off the top of my head.

Either way, though, it makes you wonder -- if Edgewalker got snared by trying to claim Shadow, and he and the Hounds are "kin" because they're both slaves, did that mean the Hounds once tried it as well? Considering Togg and Fanderay hold the House of War, and that the first gods appear to have been animal in nature, it might be a possibility.

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 9 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

Ah, okay. Hm, yeah, I'd say that's a reasonable assumption, since KG and KL both have Tiste rulers. Regarding who made tries for Shadow, we know that at least two of the three dragons were aspected in that direction already. Eloth was mistress of Meanas/Illusion, Mockra and Thyr, and Ampelas was the shaper of Kurald Emurlahn. Kalse declined to give his aspect, but given the theme so far I'd hazard to guess his was Rashan -- they would then cover all three aspects of Shadow we've heard named, giving them a nominal right to the warren. It may be that Edgewalker, if he was aspected to/around Shadow specifically (rather than my theory) would have thought his position legitimized his claim.

On the other hand, that NoK quote I put up earlier about Edgewalker wondering why no one thought the Shadow throne was meant to be empty puzzles me. This might be a truth he learned only after he made a grab for it, or else he's enslaved for some reason other than trying to command it. Is it explicitly stated, rather than speculated, that he grabbed for the throne? It sounds familiar, but I don't have the scene off the top of my head.

Either way, though, it makes you wonder -- if Edgewalker got snared by trying to claim Shadow, and he and the Hounds are "kin" because they're both slaves, did that mean the Hounds once tried it as well? Considering Togg and Fanderay hold the House of War, and that the first gods appear to have been animal in nature, it might be a possibility.

Not sure if Edgewalker ever directly said he had tried for the Throne, he certainly implies a lot of things, though. I don't think the Hounds tried for the throne, he's just noting they are bound by Shadow (and the one who sits on the throne) so they are alike to him. As for the Throne staying empty, could be a few things. For one, betrayal does seem to run amok in the Shadow family, so it could just be he's noting that folks on the throne tend to get killed by new folks. Alternatively, there's Rake who purposefully wanted the Emurlahn throne to remain empty and that could be related...

[T'renn]

I believe its stated in NoK Edgewalker did try. The Hounds would most certainly not have done so. Their a primeval force in servitude to the throne of Shadows

[lobo the wolfman]

Could Edgewalker just a member of the Tiste Edur royal familiy that Bloodeye killed? This is how i see it, KE had it's proper rulers until Scabby killed all or most of them, which started the sundering of the realm, and while Rake and Killy where killing all the dragons and others trying to take over, Edgewalker tried to claim the throne for himself, from a sense of duty to try and stop the sundering. He was then killed in one of the battles and becasue he was linked to shadow at the time he became stuck to walk the edges and keep the warren safe untill it can be healed.

Quote

How many times, he wondered, had he heard that very same conceit from a claimant to the Throne? Would they never learn? How long, he wondered, would this one last? Why was it none of the long chain of hopefuls ever bothered to ask why the Throne should be empty in the first place? After all, perhaps there was a reason.

As for the throne being empty, maybe he knows that the ture heir to shadow will one day came, Trull and the Eres'al child.

Him being 'Elder' chould be the same way that Rake and Ossic are classed as being Elder, and his name could be his tilte and role from before his death, keeping KE safe from the Andii and the Liosan who don't like there being a 3rd Tiste race and realm.

[dawnkiller]

Quote

I believe its stated in NoK Edgewalker did try. The Hounds would most certainly not have done so. Their a primeval force in servitude to the throne of Shadows

Do you mean the quote I pulled in the first post, about Kellanved speculating Edgewalker was enslaved? Edgewalker never confirmed it, and while it does STRONGLY imply, that one has the misfortune of being slightly ambiguous, in that the narration that follows shortly -- Edgewalker wondering why no one gets there may be a reason Shadow's throne is empty -- could imply that he kept silent just to let ST believe it was so. ST also reminds Edgewalker that while he'll allow these little spurts of independence, while he rules Shadow he also commands Edgewalker. Considering we haven't really seen any evidence of this, and Edgewalker's internal monologue, I'm wondering if Edgewalker just lets them think that.

(And yes, I know I should probably take all the implications at face value, but SE has made me a little paranoid about that sort of thing.)

lobo the wolfman, on May 10 2009, 02:41 AM, said:

Could Edgewalker just a member of the Tiste Edur royal familiy that Bloodeye killed? This is how i see it, KE had it's proper rulers until Scabby killed all or most of them, which started the sundering of the realm, and while Rake and Killy where killing all the dragons and others trying to take over, Edgewalker tried to claim the throne for himself, from a sense of duty to try and stop the sundering. He was then killed in one of the battles and becasue he was linked to shadow at the time he became stuck to walk the edges and keep the warren safe untill it can be healed. ...

Hm, now there's an idea. An encounter with Stabandari could explain the undead appearance. I'll also note that, as a Master, Paran was taken from an ascended mortal, and I think it was implied the Errant was once mortal as well. If we're talking a system that predates the Decks and Tiles, and all magic began with Dark and everything that followed, it might make sense to have that particular arbitrator chosen from Shadow.

The question there, of course, is why -- if Edgewalker was actually of Shadow, particularly of the Edur royal line -- failed to take the throne. The Edur would be pretty much entitled, right? Moreover, if we're putting him on the level of Osserc and Rake, it may be important to note they're the first born of Light and Dark. If you're right, Edgewalker might be firstborn of Shadow, and thus one of the forefathers of the race (or however that works.) I don't know if being dead would have gotten him kicked out of the chair. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

(Also, note that Trull's child with the Eres isn't the only contender. Trull managed to knock up Seren at the end of RG, too.)

[Lisheo]

dawnkiller, on May 10 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

The question there, of course, is why -- if Edgewalker was actually of Shadow, particularly of the Edur royal line -- failed to take the throne. The Edur would be pretty much entitled, right? Moreover, if we're putting him on the level of Osserc and Rake, it may be important to note they're the first born of Light and Dark. If you're right, Edgewalker might be firstborn of Shadow, and thus one of the forefathers of the race (or however that works.) I don't know if being dead would have gotten him kicked out of the chair. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else.

(Also, note that Trull's child with the Eres isn't the only contender. Trull managed to knock up Seren at the end of RG, too.)

Actually, I think being dead would remove any rights he would have to the throne... Bear in mind that Kellanved is suggested to not have a truly valid claim on the First Throne anymore, and that's because he simply ASCENDED... Becoming undead, however... Also, we do not know the manner of Edgewalker's "resurrection." For all we know, the Throne itself decided to bring back someone from its ancient past, and enslave them to function as a protector.

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Actually, I think being dead would remove any rights he would have to the throne... Bear in mind that Kellanved is suggested to not have a truly valid claim on the First Throne anymore, and that's because he simply ASCENDED... Becoming undead, however... Also, we do not know the manner of Edgewalker's "resurrection." For all we know, the Throne itself decided to bring back someone from its ancient past, and enslave them to function as a protector.

Re: First Throne: I'll keep an eye out for the implications in tBH during the re-read, but I thought it was suggested that he intentionally kept it empty not because he couldn't assume it, but because it was better unused. Plus, the undead thing -- isn't it more that he's not of the Imass? Silverfox's big claim is that she's the first flesh and blood Bonecaster in an age. Then again, species does not necessarily dictate who can be what, as we have seen of Brys "Mortal Sword of Shadow" Beddict.

I assume possession alone confers some rights (commanding the T'lan Imass and all) . . . hm. It makes you wonder what the difference is between possessing a throne and truly assuming it. Have we ever really seen a successful, counscious coup on a throne? ST and Cotillion walked into the unclaimed Shadow. The Wolves have ousted Fener, but that seemed more due to a void in the power-structure because of Heboric's little accident than a true power-play, since Togg and Fancydance appeared concerned only with reunion. We've seen others stumble into positions, like Trull "Wait, When'd I Become Knight of Shadow?" Sengar. It seems probable that while you can take a Throne by force for a little while, you need something more to be the true, legitimate ruler.

You may be right about the Throne resurrecting its own champion -- as noted with the Brys example, he was pretty damn dead until Hannan Mosag was given a vision identifying him as the Mortal Sword in RG. He's also Savior of the Empty Throne, apparently. ...uh, wait, "empty"...could that be a reference to the First Throne again? Dammit, no, different topic! Argh.

[Lisheo]

dawnkiller, on May 10 2009, 06:19 PM, said:

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

Actually, I think being dead would remove any rights he would have to the throne... Bear in mind that Kellanved is suggested to not have a truly valid claim on the First Throne anymore, and that's because he simply ASCENDED... Becoming undead, however... Also, we do not know the manner of Edgewalker's "resurrection." For all we know, the Throne itself decided to bring back someone from its ancient past, and enslave them to function as a protector.

Re: First Throne: I'll keep an eye out for the implications in tBH during the re-read, but I thought it was suggested that he intentionally kept it empty not because he couldn't assume it, but because it was better unused. Plus, the undead thing -- isn't it more that he's not of the Imass? Silverfox's big claim is that she's the first flesh and blood Bonecaster in an age. Then again, species does not necessarily dictate who can be what, as we have seen of Brys "Mortal Sword of Shadow" Beddict.

I assume possession alone confers some rights (commanding the T'lan Imass and all) . . . hm. It makes you wonder what the difference is between possessing a throne and truly assuming it. Have we ever really seen a successful, counscious coup on a throne? ST and Cotillion walked into the unclaimed Shadow. The Wolves have ousted Fener, but that seemed more due to a void in the power-structure because of Heboric's little accident than a true power-play, since Togg and Fancydance appeared concerned only with reunion. We've seen others stumble into positions, like Trull "Wait, When'd I Become Knight of Shadow?" Sengar. It seems probable that while you can take a Throne by force for a little while, you need something more to be the true, legitimate ruler.

You may be right about the Throne resurrecting its own champion -- as noted with the Brys example, he was pretty damn dead until Hannan Mosag was given a vision identifying him as the Mortal Sword in RG. He's also Savior of the Empty Throne, apparently. ...uh, wait, "empty"...could that be a reference to the First Throne again? Dammit, no, different topic! Argh.

It was something along the lines of he had a claim being one of the Imass's flesh and blood descendant children (humans), but when he ascended, he lost some of that claim. Even now, he only rules Meanas as Shadowthrone, so I wonder...
Also, he could only command the Logros, who were nearby... I wonder what that suggests.
And the wolves ripped the throne away from Trake (he replaced Fener first), but that's just because he was too weak... Seems you need to be strong, and possibly Elder to command a realm fully.
Empty could be Shadow; after all, did you ever stop and wonder why it was empty?
The Edur have been on Letheras for a long, long time, for all we know there was interbreeding during the time of the First Empire, and could be all Letherii have some Edur blood running thinly in their veins, which could account for Brys. Just guesswork/crazy theory though.
Scabandari took the Shadow Throne succesfully, it must be assumed; but whatever he did helped cause the Sundering. Now, Rake is one of the Andii Royals, or equivalent. I suspect to own a throne fully and have a legitimate claim on it, you have to either be an Elder God, or related to one in some form, and be aspected to the throne in some way too.

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

It was something along the lines of he had a claim being one of the Imass's flesh and blood descendant children (humans), but when he ascended, he lost some of that claim. Even now, he only rules Meanas as Shadowthrone, so I wonder...
Also, he could only command the Logros, who were nearby... I wonder what that suggests.
And the wolves ripped the throne away from Trake (he replaced Fener first), but that's just because he was too weak... Seems you need to be strong, and possibly Elder to command a realm fully.
Empty could be Shadow; after all, did you ever stop and wonder why it was empty?
The Edur have been on Letheras for a long, long time, for all we know there was interbreeding during the time of the First Empire, and could be all Letherii have some Edur blood running thinly in their veins, which could account for Brys. Just guesswork/crazy theory though.
Scabandari took the Shadow Throne succesfully, it must be assumed; but whatever he did helped cause the Sundering. Now, Rake is one of the Andii Royals, or equivalent. I suspect to own a throne fully and have a legitimate claim on it, you have to either be an Elder God, or related to one in some form, and be aspected to the throne in some way too.

Stabandari himself was Edur, wasn't he? Called Father Shadow, at least -- assuming the Encylopedia Malazica's Draconian Family Tree is up to date, he's Osserc's fault. As a direct-from-the-god sort, he seems fairly legitimate. Unless, you know, he wasn't the first-born. I'll have to re-read MT at some point to see if it turns up any more.

Brys might very well have Edur blood in there -- along with most of the world, I think. For instance, aren't the Barghest connected as well? IIRC their shouldermen share a common language -- though perhaps that was with the Moranth. (Who appear to live in a fragment of Shadow, and so are potentially Edur themselves. More speculation on my part, though.) Though so far, the only confirmed crossbreeding on Lether proper we've seen has been the Andii around Bluerose. I do remember that the raids for champions turned up "fallen" Edur, but I think those were on island-areas, not the main continent.

I figured the Wolves might have had a prior claim to the throne, being, as Togg's monologue reveals in the MoI prologue, far older than the Elder gods. Trake, on the other hand, was a First Empire-era ascendant, so if anyone had dibs it was probably them. I have this impression, personal-only, that to truly hold a Throne you need to somehow embody the nature of the aspect itself -- it's not enough to just really want it, or even be venerated as such. If it were that easy, Fener wouldn't have been ripped out in spite of still having some very active followers.

Re: Empty Throne: No, I totally took it for granted. Although I think I may once have had some vague idea that it referred to the House of Death on Lether, since that aspect was frozen by the Jaghut ritual. It makes sense to tie it back to the Imass, though, considering Lether was very much aware of them, what with the whole post-ritual-slaughter they had to inflict after everyone in the FE went all Soletaken crazy. It being the throne of Shadow also makes a tremendous amount of sense, though, especially since Brys occupies a role both for Shadow and the Empty Throne . . . not that we haven't seen aspect-straddling before, but it'd be very tricky of Erikson to have one House with two names. Besides, we know the Holds have Darkness represented by the White Crow/Silchas Ruin. The Empty Throne may be a more primative form of the House of Shadow.

I have now totally abandoned any attempt at staying on topic.

(Aside: Re: Your icon: Woo hoo, crazy Wash!)

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 10 May 2009 - 06:42 PM

[Grief]

He was called father shadow because he misled the edur into believeing this.
He took the throne after killing the true Edur Royals, according to the dragons in BH.

[dawnkiller]

Grief, on May 10 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

He was called father shadow because he misled the edur into believeing this.
He took the throne after killing the true Edur Royals, according to the dragons in BH.

I recall that, I just keep second-guessing on geneology regarding his actual species. I have Tiste Confusion. >.<

[Aptorian]

Grief, on May 10 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

He was called father shadow because he misled the edur into believeing this.

I doubt that. The Edur that partook in the Exodus would have looked at Scabby as their champion.

But over 400.000 years the Edur history turned into legend that turned into a strange form of religious mythology. Scabandari Bloodeye turned into Father Shadow, and only a small cirkle within the Edur society remembered the truth.

Most likely the Edur were ashamed at the betrayal that was delt the Andii. It was a necessary step to ensure Edur survival and future control, but it was still a very dirty act. So the truth was silenced. Most likely they just never spoke of it again and the next generations came to a dilusional image of Scabandari.