[Sindriss]

Too bad I cannot find my old thread where I discussed this with Apt.

My theory was something akind to every hold or maybe warren having an elemental guardian just like edgewalker. Too tired to explain more

[D'rek]

Empty Throne: Very unlikely related to the First Throne. There's just no similarity beyond the emptiness. More probable that the Emtpy Hold and Throne grew from the Cult of Rashan during the HFE times. HoC reveals that the Cult of Rashan worshipped/wanted/something'd an Empty _____ as well (forget what the blank is, throne or warren or something), which was in fact Shadow (most of the time un-claimed and not widely known/accessible).

Scabby: Most likely not part of the royal line, but murdered them. Maybe Edgewalker is of the Edur royal line. While it seesm rather probable that Rake, Andarist, Silchas and their offspring would be the equivalent Andii royal line, it's hard to say whether Osserc would be Liosan royal line or if that would start at the first true Liosan. Thus, Edgewalker, if naturally aspected to Shadow, could be a royal Edur, but could also be akin to Osserc and preceding the race itself (thus allowing for differences in appearance and such).

I would not assert that Scabby ever held the Throne of Shadow (previously asserted by someone). It would seem odd for him to then lead the Edur out of Emurlahn, away from the Throne, while the whole realm is getting sundered. It's equally possible that it was simply his ambitious actions and betrayals that weakened the realm so much that the sundering occured/was inevitable.

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 11 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

Empty Throne: Very unlikely related to the First Throne. There's just no similarity beyond the emptiness. More probable that the Emtpy Hold and Throne grew from the Cult of Rashan during the HFE times. HoC reveals that the Cult of Rashan worshipped/wanted/something'd an Empty _____ as well (forget what the blank is, throne or warren or something), which was in fact Shadow (most of the time un-claimed and not widely known/accessible).

Yeah, Shadow makes more sense than First Throne. And honestly it's hard to tell who holds it even now. Nominally is ST, but as per tBH, when Cotillion talks with the dragons (p.51):

'...if freed, you would once again seek the Shadow Throne. Only this time, someone occupies that throne.'
'The veracity of that claim is subject to debate.'
'A matter of semantics. Shadows cast by shadows.'
'You believe that Ammanas is sitting on the wrong Shadow Throne.'
'The true throne is not even in this fragment of Emurlahn.'

So it seems there are multiple false-thrones -- thus explaining how someone could think they've staked their true claim, but in fact be only possessing an echo. (Though in this case it's worth pointing out Cotillion's next reply is 'And is Ammanas?', and the dragons go weirdly quiet.) So it does seem quite likely the true throne of Shadow is normally empty, or has been for some time. (Wouldn't put it past ST to be squatting that one too, though.)

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Scabby: Most likely not part of the royal line, but murdered them. Maybe Edgewalker is of the Edur royal line. While it seesm rather probable that Rake, Andarist, Silchas and their offspring would be the equivalent Andii royal line, it's hard to say whether Osserc would be Liosan royal line or if that would start at the first true Liosan. Thus, Edgewalker, if naturally aspected to Shadow, could be a royal Edur, but could also be akin to Osserc and preceding the race itself (thus allowing for differences in appearance and such).

I would not assert that Scabby ever held the Throne of Shadow (previously asserted by someone). It would seem odd for him to then lead the Edur out of Emurlahn, away from the Throne, while the whole realm is getting sundered. It's equally possible that it was simply his ambitious actions and betrayals that weakened the realm so much that the sundering occured/was inevitable.

I can't recall if they said Stabby (yes, as far as I'm concerned his name is officially Stabandari) had never truly held Shadow or if it was a question of his godhood. He was ascendant, I believe, but I'm pretty sure his divinity was rejected. I think it was in RG, possibly after an original statement in the stone bowl scene of MT . . . may have to look it up later. As for the sundering, tBH convo with the dragons also indicates it was the Andii who destroyed Shadow -- though I'm not entirely sure if that came before or after the evacuation. And, it seems, Rake insisted the throne remain empty. Hm.

Speaking of royalty, do we remember if the Liosan classify L'oric as anything besides Ascendant? Being Osserc's son, it might shed some light on how the Tiste reckon beings with divine blood. Although on that note -- Dark and Light both have their champions and ruling deities. Mother Dark and Father Light, Rake and Osserc. Parents and children. So where the hell are Shadow's?

If Edgewalker turns out to be legitimately worthy of the Father Shadow title, I'm gonna laugh.

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

Yeah, Shadow makes more sense than First Throne. And honestly it's hard to tell who holds it even now. Nominally is ST, but as per tBH, when Cotillion talks with the dragons (p.51):

'...if freed, you would once again seek the Shadow Throne. Only this time, someone occupies that throne.'
'The veracity of that claim is subject to debate.'
'A matter of semantics. Shadows cast by shadows.'
'You believe that Ammanas is sitting on the wrong Shadow Throne.'
'The true throne is not even in this fragment of Emurlahn.'

So it seems there are multiple false-thrones -- thus explaining how someone could think they've staked their true claim, but in fact be only possessing an echo. (Though in this case it's worth pointing out Cotillion's next reply is 'And is Ammanas?', and the dragons go weirdly quiet.) So it does seem quite likely the true throne of Shadow is normally empty, or has been for some time. (Wouldn't put it past ST to be squatting that one too, though.)

the "false" one the dragons speak of is the one in Shadowhouse that ST first sat on just after NoK and gives him control of Means and the High House in the Deck. The one they consider the "true" one is the one on Drift Avalii, which presumably allows some control over Emurlahn or some crazy thing. As Cot says, ST isn't in the Meanas warren and we later see him pop up on Drift Avalii disguising the throne there as broken. I figure if he can wrap sorcery around it then he can defeat the wars on it and has already planted his butt on it, he's just not telling anyone because that would invite convergence. However, we've never had it directly confirmed that he's sat upon it and claimed it.

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

I can't recall if they said Stabby (yes, as far as I'm concerned his name is officially Stabandari) had never truly held Shadow or if it was a question of his godhood. He was ascendant, I believe, but I'm pretty sure his divinity was rejected. I think it was in RG, possibly after an original statement in the stone bowl scene of MT . . . may have to look it up later. As for the sundering, tBH convo with the dragons also indicates it was the Andii who destroyed Shadow -- though I'm not entirely sure if that came before or after the evacuation. And, it seems, Rake insisted the throne remain empty. Hm.

The wars between the Liosan, Andii and Edur were probably a part of what wounded Emurlah, but there were likely plenty of other causes as well. And once the sundering started, dragons and others came to tear off their own chunks of it so it had no chance of being quickly healed. Rake and Killy teamed up to beat back most of the dragons and ascendants warring in Emurlahn since they both wanted the Throne to remain empty and for the realm to die in peace on its own. Rake left the throne on Drift Avalii and set his brother to guard it.

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

Speaking of royalty, do we remember if the Liosan classify L'oric as anything besides Ascendant? Being Osserc's son, it might shed some light on how the Tiste reckon beings with divine blood.

We've never seen the Liosan interact with L'oric, so unknown what they even know about him.

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

Although on that note -- Dark and Light both have their champions and ruling deities. Mother Dark and Father Light, Rake and Osserc. Parents and children. So where the hell are Shadow's?

If Edgewalker turns out to be legitimately worthy of the Father Shadow title, I'm gonna laugh.

Rake and Osserc are not really the same, though. In many ways Osserc is more like Draconus. Presumably the ablest champion(s) of the Edur was from among the Royal Line so it is presumed that said person was murdered by Scabby. On the other hand, Father Shadow is really so far just been a name for Scabby, there's no evidence of a real Father Shadow akin to MD or FL, it's quite possible that there is no FS and maybe even no particularly special Edur. Heck, maybe Edur are just what happens when Liosan and Andii crossbreed...

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 11 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

the "false" one the dragons speak of is the one in Shadowhouse that ST first sat on just after NoK and gives him control of Means and the High House in the Deck. The one they consider the "true" one is the one on Drift Avalii, which presumably allows some control over Emurlahn or some crazy thing. As Cot says, ST isn't in the Meanas warren and we later see him pop up on Drift Avalii disguising the throne there as broken. I figure if he can wrap sorcery around it then he can defeat the wars on it and has already planted his butt on it, he's just not telling anyone because that would invite convergence. However, we've never had it directly confirmed that he's sat upon it and claimed it.

The wars between the Liosan, Andii and Edur were probably a part of what wounded Emurlah, but there were likely plenty of other causes as well. And once the sundering started, dragons and others came to tear off their own chunks of it so it had no chance of being quickly healed. Rake and Killy teamed up to beat back most of the dragons and ascendants warring in Emurlahn since they both wanted the Throne to remain empty and for the realm to die in peace on its own. Rake left the throne on Drift Avalii and set his brother to guard it.

Continuing to get mileage out of the dragon scene, one of the dragons cites one of Stabby's crimes to be "spilling draconean blood in the heart of Kurald Emurlahn . . . opening the first, fatal wound upon that warren! What did he think gates were?" (p.52-53 - wow, glad I took this one to the office today).

And yeah, I do find it unlikely someone like ST would NOT have found the true throne. One just wonders if he's really sitting it or just . . . keeping it. Power-wise ST's kind of like the crazy guy who saves broken kazoos just in case he needs them for spare parts one day. And of course his games seem to involve more plotting than acquisition of raw power . . .

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We've never seen the Liosan interact with L'oric, so unknown what they even know about him.

Yeah. That one's kind of a question mark. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the guy, but given his personality I gotta wonder how the Liosan, as we've seen them so far, would receive him. For an ascendant of such a rigid race he's kinda . . . floppy.

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Rake and Osserc are not really the same, though. In many ways Osserc is more like Draconus. Presumably the ablest champion(s) of the Edur was from among the Royal Line so it is presumed that said person was murdered by Scabby. On the other hand, Father Shadow is really so far just been a name for Scabby, there's no evidence of a real Father Shadow akin to MD or FL, it's quite possible that there is no FS and maybe even no particularly special Edur. Heck, maybe Edur are just what happens when Liosan and Andii crossbreed...

Cotillion, on the same page as the above dragon rant, speaks of the champions of the respective races, chosen from the Soletaken with elient blood. Stabby is conjoined with the Edur (as having won it unfairly), Rake for the Andii, Osserc for Liosan, and Olar Ethil for the Imass. So they're all champions, but very different personalities and methods of execution -- though IIRC Osserc and Rake did manage to coexist for a period of time before Rake joined up with Brood. (Draconus Cotillion can't be sure of, but as of the RotCG prologue he appears to have once been a consort or something of Night/Dark and then lost favor -- now he's apparently Liege of the Dragon Hold. Perhaps this says something.)

What I'm wondering is if there once was a true champion of Shadow, way back before Stabby -- one we've never even heard of because they were killed long ago, and the past obscured in the same way as Stabandari's betrayal. (As with many others, my money's kinda on Tulas Shorn as having been an important, likely royal Edur, though we'll see if that changes upon rereading.)

Someone, I think Udinaas, made a crack in RG that maybe one of the reasons the Andii were so pissed about Light had something to do with why no one ever addressed who their father WAS. While it's fully possible they sprung fully-formed from MD alone, Udinaas found it amusing to speculate that the elements were balanced out less obviously in the brothers. Like, Rake was all light on the inside, but dark on the outside, while Ruin looked Liosan (albino and all), but his nature was rather black. And thus perhaps some of the ambivalence about just where the Edur stood between the two races. Then again, Udinaas spent most of RG just fucking with people, so it could have just been BS.

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Continuing to get mileage out of the dragon scene, one of the dragons cites one of Stabby's crimes to be "spilling draconean blood in the heart of Kurald Emurlahn . . . opening the first, fatal wound upon that warren! What did he think gates were?" (p.52-53 - wow, glad I took this one to the office today).

And yeah, I do find it unlikely someone like ST would NOT have found the true throne. One just wonders if he's really sitting it or just . . . keeping it. Power-wise ST's kind of like the crazy guy who saves broken kazoos just in case he needs them for spare parts one day. And of course his games seem to involve more plotting than acquisition of raw power . . .

Hmm, go for the simplest answer and Tulas Shorn is royal Eleint Edur whom Scabby murdered and spilled eleint blood in Emurlahn. Of course the simplest answers are often wrong, especially the way Tulas reflected on how there were others who thought he was bonkers for being an animal-lover and such, this likely there were a bunch of royals and Scabby poisoned them with cake...

As for ST, he's definitely found the true Throne, there's really only the 2, and I can't see as he'd put so much effort into defending it only to not sit on it. Tbh, I think the only remaining reason why he wouldn't have claimed it would be cause Rake might get mad, but that's not an issue anymore...

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Quote

Rake and Osserc are not really the same, though. In many ways Osserc is more like Draconus. Presumably the ablest champion(s) of the Edur was from among the Royal Line so it is presumed that said person was murdered by Scabby. On the other hand, Father Shadow is really so far just been a name for Scabby, there's no evidence of a real Father Shadow akin to MD or FL, it's quite possible that there is no FS and maybe even no particularly special Edur. Heck, maybe Edur are just what happens when Liosan and Andii crossbreed...

Cotillion, on the same page as the above dragon rant, speaks of the champions of the respective races, chosen from the Soletaken with elient blood. Stabby is conjoined with the Edur (as having won it unfairly), Rake for the Andii, Osserc for Liosan, and Olar Ethil for the Imass. So they're all champions, but very different personalities and methods of execution -- though IIRC Osserc and Rake did manage to coexist for a period of time before Rake joined up with Brood. (Draconus Cotillion can't be sure of, but as of the RotCG prologue he appears to have once been a consort or something of Night/Dark and then lost favor -- now he's apparently Liege of the Dragon Hold. Perhaps this says something.)

Draconus is special in that he is frequently aligned with both Dark and with Dragons. Maybe he's a lesbo-love-baby from MD and Tiam...

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Someone, I think Udinaas, made a crack in RG that maybe one of the reasons the Andii were so pissed about Light had something to do with why no one ever addressed who their father WAS. While it's fully possible they sprung fully-formed from MD alone, Udinaas found it amusing to speculate that the elements were balanced out less obviously in the brothers. Like, Rake was all light on the inside, but dark on the outside, while Ruin looked Liosan (albino and all), but his nature was rather black. And thus perhaps some of the ambivalence about just where the Edur stood between the two races. Then again, Udinaas spent most of RG just fucking with people, so it could have just been BS.

Another good bit from Udinaas is where he discredits Clip's story of the Andii being the first of MD's children (and only MD's children). As much as the Andii have proved they believe it, there have been quite a lot of other characters who don't. Onos T'oolan said there was probably little truth to the story. Osserc said that MD's first children were the EGs and were her only kids not to have a father. While Udinaas might be goin' a bit over-the-top with the whole combination of light and dark inside-outside bit, there's plenty of reason to think that FL is indeed the Andii's father.

(And just for the record, it was Andarist all black on the outisde but pure on the inside, Silchas dark on the inside but albino and Rake half-and-half of both {silver hair})

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 11 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

As for ST, he's definitely found the true Throne, there's really only the 2, and I can't see as he'd put so much effort into defending it only to not sit on it. Tbh, I think the only remaining reason why he wouldn't have claimed it would be cause Rake might get mad, but that's not an issue anymore...

The reason for my dubiousness about ST is that we've already seen him to be a guy who would abandon an entire empire in service to his agenda. He strikes me as the sort who's aware power can be its own trap, and as such is not above making use of something for a while with the intent to abandon it and move on when it suits him. He appears to be aligning things for some sort of endgame, and considering his past moves I'm not putting a voluntary upset of the status quo behind him.

(Aside: Poisoned by cake? Surely we can work up some more awesome form of regicide. Any GRRM readers out there? "The Red Wedding", anyone? ...okay, maybe not.)

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Draconus is special in that he is frequently aligned with both Dark and with Dragons. Maybe he's a lesbo-love-baby from MD and Tiam...

Or maybe Mommy ditched him when he start making out with Tiam, which would explain his bit in the RotCG prologue. ...and, um, ew.

(On a vaguely related note, Abyss impressed upon me the possibility his original aspect was Night, which would make Nightchill's original moniker "Sister of Cold Nights" the most painful stealth-pun ever.)

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Another good bit from Udinaas is where he discredits Clip's story of the Andii being the first of MD's children (and only MD's children). As much as the Andii have proved they believe it, there have been quite a lot of other characters who don't. Onos T'oolan said there was probably little truth to the story. Osserc said that MD's first children were the EGs and were her only kids not to have a father. While Udinaas might be goin' a bit over-the-top with the whole combination of light and dark inside-outside bit, there's plenty of reason to think that FL is indeed the Andii's father.
(And just for the record, it was Andarist all black on the outisde but pure on the inside, Silchas dark on the inside but albino and Rake half-and-half of both {silver hair})

Damn, that's right. I always forget where Andarist falls into things, which is apparently his lot in life.

I guess the real question is whether or not MD is capable of producing things singly. The dragons, who I assume would know, stated that even when Darkness ruled alone there were other elementals -- but then, also, that it's in the nature of Darkness to rule only itself. That's very poetic, and I have no idea what it means. Given Rake and Andarist are both goners at this point and the only guy left who'd know is Silchas the Unforthcoming, we may never get an answer, either. (Unless SE is pulling from the Greek concept of Night, which was forever spontaneously generating its own children, anyway . . .)

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 11 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

I guess the real question is whether or not MD is capable of producing things singly. The dragons, who I assume would know, stated that even when Darkness ruled alone there were other elementals -- but then, also, that it's in the nature of Darkness to rule only itself. That's very poetic, and I have no idea what it means. Given Rake and Andarist are both goners at this point and the only guy left who'd know is Silchas the Unforthcoming, we may never get an answer, either. (Unless SE is pulling from the Greek concept of Night, which was forever spontaneously generating its own children, anyway . . .)

Well, if Osserc is to be believed her first children were the 2nd-generation EGs and they had no sire, so if you believe that than apparently she can. Of course, she probably didn't *birth* them in the same way she would have the Andii, or even Kurald Galain. Imo, more likely they were lesser creatures that formed in chaos, much like herself long ago, and she assisted them in becoming greater creatures and not just dissolving back into chaos or whatever. Something philosophical and yet utterly meaningless like that, anyway...

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 11 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

Well, if Osserc is to be believed her first children were the 2nd-generation EGs and they had no sire, so if you believe that than apparently she can. Of course, she probably didn't *birth* them in the same way she would have the Andii, or even Kurald Galain. Imo, more likely they were lesser creatures that formed in chaos, much like herself long ago, and she assisted them in becoming greater creatures and not just dissolving back into chaos or whatever. Something philosophical and yet utterly meaningless like that, anyway...

It does make sense in a convoluted way. Since SD and KG are described as the chambers of K'rul's heart, it seems all magic (or that native to Wu, so excluding the KCCM's and the Stormriders') is derived from those two warrens. As such, the associated elder gods, who basically embody aspects of the magic or . . . the thing that holds it (dammitK'rul) . . . uh, well, they would have to derive from one of those two sources, right?

Going back to Edgewalker (see what I did with the topic there?), if MD did in fact allow the elder gods to draw delineating from her, then perhaps the Tracer of Edges name is relevant there as well. If the Elder Gods were ill-defined (confusion about their aspects being just one issue), perhaps he assisted in the specialization.

Huh. If he walks the boundaries of the warrens, he's basically taking a stroll through K'rul. That's . . . creepy.

[mot]

I've wondered if it was possible that Edgewalker represented the third force that showed up between Anomander and Osserc, representing light and dark, in the prologue to ROTCG.