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#41 User is offline   coltainereborn 

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 06:46 PM

View PostD'rek, on Jun 14 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

View Postcoltainereborn, on Jun 12 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

View PostD'rek, on Jun 11 2009, 08:54 PM, said:

The titles Mortal Sword, Destriant, Shield Anvil are just that - titles. While the Grey Sword officers were the real deal, the church of Fener had many, many other Destriants because it was a part of the hierarchy of the church, hence why Rath'Fener claimed his rank was as Destriant. Karnadas just happened to be officially imbued with Fener's own power because Fener had chosen him personally. Likewise, the Bluerose can go ahead and call Clip the MS of Rake, it's the very same as any church declaring their top members special names. Rake didn't acknowledge it and so Clip had none of Rake's own power passed into him, but he was still a MS in the Bluerose' eyes.



You're right, but I guess that was kind of my point, I don't think Dassem asked for the cult, but he has one anyway, the cultists could install a heirarchy w/o him. And then what if he is hi-jacked like Feather witch did to the Errant in MT-- Traveler has power, and if SE has taught us anything, its that people will want a piece of it. I think one of the most interesting aspects of SE's work is the way that Worshipped/worshipper relationship is a two way street.



I don't think the comparison is valid. The Errant was an established part of the Tiles and had his own priesthood and whatnot in place. Willingly. He may have reduced himself a lot, but the old system could be revived, and FW did. And even then the Errant could've quashed it until FW ate his eye.

Dessembrae has never been more than a cult, Dassem has never accepted or blessed a formal structure or even acknowledged his wroshippers, so there is no old structure to revive. And, seeing as its Dassem, I wouldn't count on any cultists managing to best him and steal his eye...


Once again D'rek, when you're right, you're right... Dassem is still just an ascendant, with no house of his own

So some wild DoD speculation-- Paran recognizes Dassem's house- The House of Tragedy? Or will he end up stepping into Hood's shoes?(It could happen,....... maybe)
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#42 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 06:56 PM

View Postcoltainereborn, on Jun 15 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

View PostD'rek, on Jun 14 2009, 03:13 PM, said:

View Postcoltainereborn, on Jun 12 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

View PostD'rek, on Jun 11 2009, 08:54 PM, said:

The titles Mortal Sword, Destriant, Shield Anvil are just that - titles. While the Grey Sword officers were the real deal, the church of Fener had many, many other Destriants because it was a part of the hierarchy of the church, hence why Rath'Fener claimed his rank was as Destriant. Karnadas just happened to be officially imbued with Fener's own power because Fener had chosen him personally. Likewise, the Bluerose can go ahead and call Clip the MS of Rake, it's the very same as any church declaring their top members special names. Rake didn't acknowledge it and so Clip had none of Rake's own power passed into him, but he was still a MS in the Bluerose' eyes.



You're right, but I guess that was kind of my point, I don't think Dassem asked for the cult, but he has one anyway, the cultists could install a heirarchy w/o him. And then what if he is hi-jacked like Feather witch did to the Errant in MT-- Traveler has power, and if SE has taught us anything, its that people will want a piece of it. I think one of the most interesting aspects of SE's work is the way that Worshipped/worshipper relationship is a two way street.



I don't think the comparison is valid. The Errant was an established part of the Tiles and had his own priesthood and whatnot in place. Willingly. He may have reduced himself a lot, but the old system could be revived, and FW did. And even then the Errant could've quashed it until FW ate his eye.

Dessembrae has never been more than a cult, Dassem has never accepted or blessed a formal structure or even acknowledged his wroshippers, so there is no old structure to revive. And, seeing as its Dassem, I wouldn't count on any cultists managing to best him and steal his eye...


Once again D'rek, when you're right, you're right... Dassem is still just an ascendant, with no house of his own

So some wild DoD speculation-- Paran recognizes Dassem's house- The House of Tragedy? Or will he end up stepping into Hood's shoes?(It could happen,....... maybe)


Heh, thanks!

Dassem taking Hood's shoes could definitely be on the slate... it would definitely help the whole "why didn't Anomander just stab himself" argument if there was a reason why it had to be Dassem and setting him up to be the next God of Death would work quite nicely in there.

I doubt sincerely hope Paran would not recognize an entire House of Tragedy or some such, that would probably be a bit overkill, but Dassem could become a "real" god without taking on a whole house, much like Fener before he descended. I think he just needs to accept his worship and start using it. The key word in Erikson's books definitely seems to be 'cult'. Whenever there's a cult, it's like a non-sanctioned religion, from the cult of Treach (pre-his death and replacement of Fener) to the cult of Rashan before Ammanas took the ST.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#43 User is offline   Excellence 

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 01:42 PM

This has occurred to me...

Some people call Rake the "god" of his Andii people. But he's not a deity, he's an Ascendant.

Personally, he doesn't think he coul dtake on both Shadowthrone and Cotillion together . . . but that was way back in book 1. Things have changed, when Erikson found his "voice" in the series as we know it today.

So too could Dassem be that. A deity to his cultists . . . but not one per se.
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#44 User is offline   coltainereborn 

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 03:00 PM

have started re-reading through GoTM, where Dessembrae's split with Hood is mentioned. But also Baruk uses the expression Dessembrae Fend, just thought it was interesting, I dont recall a lot of Dessembrae based curses. Also shows that the cult of Dessembrae was probably alive and well in Darujhistan a few years before TTH(Im speculating)
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#45 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 04:10 PM

Quote

QUOTE (Assail @ May 7 2009, 03:28 PM)
I plan too, I'm prob gonna go buy NoK, RotCG and the First Dresden book today or tomorrow. I'm looking forward to RotCG, you're like the 2358236587236 person to tell me how much ass it kicks


Deloris Menhir

Quote

Just so your expectations aren't raised too high, it's worth noting that RotCG isn't that good. You know it isn't Erikson when you're reading it.


I am with Deloris Menhir on this one.

not trying to rain on anyones parade, but I really wish I had not read ROTCG, and that way I could pretend that the massive trainwreck that is this book never occured.

This post has been edited by foolio: 07 July 2009 - 04:12 PM

I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter at the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain...."
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#46 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:20 PM

View Postfoolio, on Jul 7 2009, 12:10 PM, said:

Quote

QUOTE (Assail @ May 7 2009, 03:28 PM)
I plan too, I'm prob gonna go buy NoK, RotCG and the First Dresden book today or tomorrow. I'm looking forward to RotCG, you're like the 2358236587236 person to tell me how much ass it kicks


Deloris Menhir

Quote

Just so your expectations aren't raised too high, it's worth noting that RotCG isn't that good. You know it isn't Erikson when you're reading it.


I am with Deloris Menhir on this one.

not trying to rain on anyones parade, but I really wish I had not read ROTCG, and that way I could pretend that the massive trainwreck that is this book never occured.


well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it but as the thread on this subject in the RotCG forum clearly indicates, many people feel differently about it...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#47 User is offline   foolio 

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 07:56 PM

Quote

well that's your opinion and you're welcome to it but as the thread on this subject in the RotCG forum clearly indicates, many people feel differently about it...


well of course it is just my opinion. Thats a given. And not that it matters but I could have sworn I was on the DoD forum.

I am not trying to say that anybody who likes that book is dumb or crazy, I was simply agreeing with someone else that ROTCG was not good and that in my humble opinion it was a train wreck, and did I mention a major, biblibcal sized dissapointment?

Quote

have started re-reading through GoTM, where Dessembrae's split with Hood is mentioned. But also Baruk uses the expression Dessembrae Fend, just thought it was interesting, I dont recall a lot of Dessembrae based curses. Also shows that the cult of Dessembrae was probably alive and well in Darujhistan a few years before TTH(Im speculating)
that is interesting. good catch.We hear "Beru Fend" all the time. I guess Dasseems cult would have had plenty of time to travel to Darujhistan, right? It is odd that someone that seems to be as old as Baruk, most likely much older than Dasseem, would use that as a curse though. Can someone remind me who Beru is?

This post has been edited by foolio: 07 July 2009 - 08:32 PM

I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter at the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain...."
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#48 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:59 PM

lord of storms as i recall
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#49 User is offline   beru 

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 01:07 AM

but also female (oops) so lady of storms (gender change after GOTM)
i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels
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#50 User is offline   SpanishDancer 

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:17 AM

On the topic of titles, what if Dessembrae, Lord of Tragedy itself is a title? The positions in the Deck of Dragons seem to be mutable and often shifting. The throne of shadow has had a long history of worship, even when no one occupied it (e.g. I assume Quick Ben's role as a priest of shadow was before Kellanved ascended) In the prologue of GotM, it appears that Dassem Ultor's "betrayal" of Hood was a recent matter that led to his fall at Y'Ghatan. However, Kruppe's reading about the chaining (start of chapter 12) mentions that Dessembrae "shattered the bonds Hood held upon him". Given Kruppe's remarks about the ancientness of the volume, it seems older than a decade, suggesting it related to an earlier chaining, perhaps one related to the start of Burn's sleep, which was a thousand years prior. What if the title of Lord of Tragedy has been held by different people at different times, marked by the servants that Hood has betrayed during the numerous chainings of the Crippled God.
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