[MTS]

What I think is troubling about Christianity today is a misinterpretation of the Bible, being too selective and lending too much weight to some of the Bible's teachings. I mean, Tiste is perfectly fine in thinking that homosexuality is wrong, as a matter of principle, but for people to take that message in the Bible as a pretext for bigotry and persecution? Not okay. I seriously doubt Jesus would've condoned homosexuality, but nor would he have condemned them to burn for eternity.

I think the problem stems from the belief by some people that there is a "good, true Christian", and that anyone who does not conform to this template (goths, gays, drinkers for example) are not worthy of God's salvation, which I think is a complete and utter joke. I know some gay Christians who have no trouble at all reconciling their homosexuality with their faith in God. They recognise that homosexuality might be considered wrong in God's eyes, but they accept that they cannot change who they are, God made them that way, and believe that it will not be held against them when they are judged by God. The sheer number of denominations and doctrinal differences between them also makes it confusing as to what is "ok". I mean, Anglicans priests are not celibate, can drink and have very little of the restrictions raised upon Catholics, for example (I should know - my mother is an Anglican priest). The lack of a unified system muddies the waters, and it's a shame that people who preach bigotry and hatred are given the label of "true Christians", as that puts a bad name on the rest of Christianity.

[Aptorian]

Like I always say when these Christianity discussions come up, I don't believe in god. Partially because it's silly believing in a magical all powerful ghost that no one has ever seen or heard of for the past 3000 years (hell maybe he was an alien and died long ago), but also I am afraid of the idea of an afterlife. I am very comfortable with the concept of my death being the end. The big nothing. No more pain and weariness, no more bad memories, no more problems. Just nothing. The thought of God existing scares the shit out of me. This big thing beyond our world, watching everything I do, writing down all my transgressions. Seriously, I am a sinful bastard and I am very happy with my heathen lifestyle. I am not interested in being put before some giant scary angel with a big book of sins he's going to pound me with.

I consider Christianity as a good philosophy, one that my society is build upon, therefore I accept it. The Message is beautiful and the more we do to live by the central belief of christianity the better the world would be. But I REFUSE to have, what a bunch of primitives wrote down on sheepskin 3000 years ago as laws, pulled over my head. You cannot take the Bible serious, on one hand you have these beautiful, merciful acts and the next the protagonists in this ragtag fantasy story killing and burning people for the strangest offenses. My favorite is the one about the naughty kids being mauled by bears for being annoying. The Bible is a giant pile of discrepancies and direct contradictions. When people want to be treated well they quote the New Testament and when they dislike someone they just quote the Old Testament. At least that's my impression. Basically, every time a woman says anything about gay people or... GOTHS, you should just tell her to shut up. The Bible says that she needs to take off her shoes, get into the kitchen, make me some grub and wait for me to come in and demand some consensual sex in the missionary position. I'm sure she choses to not take that particular part of the bible into her consideration, so why the lack of patience with homosexuals?

The book is designed by politicians for Christs sake. Anyone who knows a bit about Roman and Catholic history knows that the Church has tampered so much with the bible and the general message that we have no way of knowing what was originally scripture and what has been cut out.

In my opinion they should write a new section where we can hate on all the annoying people in our society. Goths can get the opening chapter, then followed by hippies and vegetarians. We need a big section for communists!

[Wry]

Quote

I should know - my mother is an Anglican priest

It's funny, I was raised as a catholic and despite long since leaving that religion behind the above sentence still strikes me as really weird... there must be alot of stuff still hard wired in my head.

Not a criticism of Anglicans... or mothers - I'm in favour of both

[MTS]

Yeah, I still get the whole "WTF? Women can be priests now. That's weird". You can't remove 2000 years of precedent over night, I guess.

[Aptorian]

There was a big hub bub in the media a year or so ago here in Denmark, where a lot of male priests and even a few of the higher ups, like the Bishop of Roskilde, refused to shake hand or generally achknowledge the female clergy. That's pretty weird giving the very free society of Denmark.

[MTS]

That is weird. The Anglican Church (at least in Australia) is like that as well, although not quite as bad. Mum always ends up with crappy postings, while male clergy members receive favour over her. I think she's had...4 or so parishes where they've been struggling for money and parishioners (I think one of her services got 5 people in a parish of about 1500), when she's been a priest for 15 years and has far more experience than others who have received the "promotion" over her. It's sad, really. I don't see the big deal about women priests, either. Jesus preached equality, tolerance, and didn't treat women any differently than men (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me). And besides, a lot of denominations are struggling for members, yet are refusing to ordain women into the clergy, based on principle. It's not right.

[Zanth13]

How about these Westboro babtist church fuckfaces.

The biggest spreaders of hate and untolerance I have yet to come across, They like to show up a a fallen soldiers funeral with signs such as Thank God for IEDs, and Thank god for Dead Soldiers,

If I ever see these guys in action I will go to jail again.

even there website is untollerable,

godhatesfags.com

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[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I'm pretty sure the godhatesgoths site is meant to be making fun of the godhatesfags people. Or, it might be serious and actually inspired by them. Sadly, it's tough to tell.

[Illuyankas]

You know, I just proved God doesn't exist. Here's how I did it.

1. If God exists, then homosexuality is a sin.
2. If homosexuality is a sin, then lesbians are evil, which is clearly not true.
3. Ergo, God doesn't exist.

[Gem Windcaster]

Yeah RLY, that's the thing, you can't be sure.

Personally I think the attitude you get from some Christians when they find a reason to hate someone ("zomg that is a sin, kill them they are eeeviil"), and the attitude you get from people around you when you say something is a sin ("zomg she/he said sin, now he/she is gonna hate us and prosecute us and think we are eeeviil") stems from the same confusions and possibly the same traditions and assumptions of what it is to be a Christian. My theory is that it comes from the regular human condition - fear, insecurity and the same functions that make one village go attack the village down the hill, because they are a threat and possible 'inferior'.

If you manage to avoid one ditch, the other one is just across the road and just as easy to end up in. That you sometimes end up in the ditches is human, and as long as you try to stay on the road, it's okay. But some people not only end up in a ditch, they want to be there, they build a trench and fire on anyone that get too close. Tragic really.


Edit: funny Illy, with that template I could prove that you don't exist aswell. Just replace 'God' with 'Illy'. *Illy disappears in a cloud of logic*

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 02 May 2009 - 09:28 PM

[Illuyankas]

 Gem Windcaster, on May 2 2009, 10:26 PM, said:

Edit: funny Illy, with that template I could prove that you don't exist aswell. Just replace 'God' with 'Illy'. *Illy disappears in a cloud of logic*

Since when does my existence make being gay evil? Lesbians are wonderous and holy, regardless.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

 Illuyankas, on May 2 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

Since when does my existence make being gay evil? Lesbians are wonderous and hole-y, regardless.

Fixed for anatomical accuracy.


Im sure I saw a documentary on those godfag people, the word cult just screams itself at you. They are clearly nutters and the best cure would be for everyone else to just stop int he street and laugh at them for their idiotic beliefs.

[Silencer]

 teholbeddict, on May 2 2009, 05:46 AM, said:

You have a good point here Tiste, one of the things I can't stand about religion is the sheer amount of intolerance and hate that always seems to be involved. I find the idea of God hating goths just as rediculous as the idea that he hates homosexuals. I am a huge supporter of LGTB rights and the fact that many religions or people involved in organized religion tend to look at those people as somehow deserving of less than the rest of us human beings drives me nuts. I was raised in the Catholic faith and the unfairness of situations like that, along with intolerance, and hypocrisy I perceived were what made me turn away from religion in the first place.

I think if more individuals had the attitude of love and acceptance and overall good will that you do, people would have less of a problem with religion, God, Chrisitanity, whatever you want to call it. It's a shame that a few wackos put this type of thing out there and ruin things for the rest of people.

Just a question out of sheer personal curiosity. Would you say the Christian faith base as a whole is comprised mainly of individuals such as yourself or do you think there are a larger number of the type of people who form these silly groups? You're clearly heavily involved so I figure you might be able to offer some interesting perspective.

Interestingly enough, Christianity (as well as other monotheistic religions - primarily Judaism, of course, as the oldest) were the instigators of discrimination. Pantheonic religions such as those adopted by the Romans and Greeks were quite accepting of other people's gods - most of the time they would equate those gods with their own (Jupiter = Zeus = Ammon Ra), and let each cultural group have their own celebrations and festivals. That's not to say there wasn't discrimination, but there was a much larger sense of 'acceptance' of others and their religions in the ancient world.
Judaism and Christianity were treated as radical cults, but the Jews were not really singled out until Jesus turned up, and started telling people that they believed in the wrong system, their gods were all false, and God was the one true god. Up until that point monotheistic religions were tolerated, though not encouraged. The problems started when people began preaching that there was but one god and the others were all false, which by it's very nature was exclusive and confrontational. So much for the Christian faith being accepting of others, huh?
While one could argue that the base values (which, one must admit, are the most important parts - but that's not what I'm getting at here) of the monotheistic faiths are full of acceptance and love for others, by their very nature they create confrontation, as opposed to a system that adopts and treats all other's gods as equal.

As for you question, I'd have to agree with Gem, and Tiste - there are plenty of people who do follow the teachings of the bible, and more than there are of extremists, the same as there are plenty of Muslims who do not wish to blow themselves and others up, but simply want to follow the teachings in the Koran.

 Thelomen Toblerone, on May 2 2009, 11:06 AM, said:

 Cougar, on May 1 2009, 11:00 PM, said:

I suppose if you really do believe in the bible then there is no arguing about gays, it's right out it is quite clear. Same as murder and eating orangutangs on Wednesday (or whatever). But what about all the other stuff, I mean if you read Leviticus then shit, you can't do anything without pissing the big man off.

Yup, like wearing cotton-poly blends. That's a hellable offence, apparently. And that's why anyone who thinks the bible should be taken as (if you'll pardon the expression) Gospel truth is ever so slightly mad in my mind, as I just cant see why some of it you would take as strictly the word of God, and the rest of it you can ignore (the meat on friday thing, etc). Also the seemingly arbitrary compilation, with all sorts of denominations recognising different books as part of the canon, makes it a bit difficult to be sure what the Bible should actually be, so what counts as scripture. The overall message is good and I can respect it, people get bogged down in the details way too much.

This is a good post, and quite accurate. It's the basic message that counts (though then you get into the argument about "what about people who are good but don't believe" - Shin makes an interesting point about this) rather than the specifics. The problem is the range of sects and the feeling of it being open to interpretation rather than a unified vision - but that freedom is probably part of its popularity.
Myself, I find it interesting that believers take the words of mortal men as the words of God - who is to say that the people who wrote the bible are to be trusted and truly represent God?

Regarding the OP, I'd have to say that I wouldn't be surprised to find a bunch of non-believers running the site(s). It just has that feel to it, rather than serious beliefs that the user feels should be spread.

(Just read Apt's post before submitting - he wins. That is all)

[Shinrei]

If God is love and forgiveness, then it has to be extended to everyone. The whole "great being who tests his subjects" just doesn't fly, because that doesn't seem very "great" to me.

My wrestling with this thought process came out of wondering what would happen to my father. My father is an athiest and according to some will not go to heaven. But if I die and go to heaven, and my father isn't there, how can heaven be any sort of 'perfect' for me?

[Illuyankas]

Shin,

Spoiler

clearly God will make an almost exact clone of your father to hang around with you in heaven, and you will never get the urge to ask him if he's still an atheist and you will never think about his sudden change of heart and you will never even consider that your mind has been changed to keep yourself happy for the rest of eternity. Because if you ask those questions then that would break the eternal happiness clause of heaven, and God couldn't have that.

Hmm, that was surprisingly bitter this morning afternoon, might be the remnants of the hangover. I'll be nice and spoiler that for Tiste and friends.

Oh, and this thing, by whoever I haven't looked up the source yet:

Spoiler

"A God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell -- mouths mercy, and invented hell -- mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!"

[Tiste Simeon]

 Zanth13, on May 2 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

How about these Westboro babtist church fuckfaces.

The biggest spreaders of hate and untolerance I have yet to come across, They like to show up a a fallen soldiers funeral with signs such as Thank God for IEDs, and Thank god for Dead Soldiers,

If I ever see these guys in action I will go to jail again.

even there website is untollerable,

godhatesfags.com

Ugh. I can't stand those guys. I saw the Louis Theroux documentary called "The Most Hated Family in America" They are just awful...

[MTS]

Haha Illy that's a fairly severe indictment against all that God is. I'd be interested to find out who said that. He/she sounds like a good read, if a little confrontational.

I agree about those people; they're bloody luantics. If they have to preach at all, I would seriously prefer they create their own religion and stop contaminating Christianity's name. I'm starting to think godhatesgoths.com is a joke now, though.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Newsflash: everyones hates goths.

[Shinrei]

But which is worse, goths or emos?

I suppose Goth Emos are the worst. <shivers>

[Aptorian]

Goths and emos are the same and no I don't care to hear the explanation for the differences, both are creepy and would be shot if they came onto my lawn.