[Serc]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

Serc, it wasn't obvious until Shadow pointed it out. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that it constitutes as coding, for reveal. It's definitely not communication between symp and master because that would even less be so obvious. The only reason anyone would post such codes on thread is if they meant to reveal or possibly fake reveal.


Edit: I'm not saying I am sure of anything about the outed pair here, I am just concerned that Shadow outed them without thinking twice.

You see that as coding? One guy say a drunken I love you and the other returns it... Checking that we're on the same page here, maybe I'm looking at the wrong post or something. If (hypothetically) Mockras was dead and Driss put that forward as the proof that he had been paired with Mockra I really dont see anyone buying it. Maybe that's just me, but paired coding is normally incredibly convoluted, since the pair can send each other decryption algorithms off thread. Although I do agree it doesnt really come across as a symp/master thing either, that's usually way more one sided.

[Meanas]

Serc, on Apr 26 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

Serc, it wasn't obvious until Shadow pointed it out. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that it constitutes as coding, for reveal. It's definitely not communication between symp and master because that would even less be so obvious. The only reason anyone would post such codes on thread is if they meant to reveal or possibly fake reveal.


Edit: I'm not saying I am sure of anything about the outed pair here, I am just concerned that Shadow outed them without thinking twice.

You see that as coding? One guy say a drunken I love you and the other returns it... Checking that we're on the same page here, maybe I'm looking at the wrong post or something. If (hypothetically) Mockras was dead and Driss put that forward as the proof that he had been paired with Mockra I really dont see anyone buying it. Maybe that's just me, but paired coding is normally incredibly convoluted, since the pair can send each other decryption algorithms off thread. Although I do agree it doesnt really come across as a symp/master thing either, that's usually way more one sided.

Well it's definitely some sort of coding - hey it's not my fault it's lousy. Point is, I don't think it's likely it's a master-symp thing, because they would definitely not be that obvious. I think it's more likely that it's a pair coding badly than a master-symp coding badly. But hey I'm not discarding any idea here, my point is that Shadow didn't even blink - he outed them without even a single poof of proof that they are scum. Hey just look at the posts Shadow put together, reading that I really don't understand how Shadow could just out them like that.

Edit: removed a superfluous 'than'.

This post has been edited by Meanas: 26 April 2009 - 08:06 PM

[Shadow]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

Serc, on Apr 26 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

Serc, it wasn't obvious until Shadow pointed it out. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that it constitutes as coding, for reveal. It's definitely not communication between symp and master because that would even less be so obvious. The only reason anyone would post such codes on thread is if they meant to reveal or possibly fake reveal.


Edit: I'm not saying I am sure of anything about the outed pair here, I am just concerned that Shadow outed them without thinking twice.

You see that as coding? One guy say a drunken I love you and the other returns it... Checking that we're on the same page here, maybe I'm looking at the wrong post or something. If (hypothetically) Mockras was dead and Driss put that forward as the proof that he had been paired with Mockra I really dont see anyone buying it. Maybe that's just me, but paired coding is normally incredibly convoluted, since the pair can send each other decryption algorithms off thread. Although I do agree it doesnt really come across as a symp/master thing either, that's usually way more one sided.

Well it's definitely some sort of coding - hey it's not my fault it's lousy. Point is, I don't think it's likely it's a master-symp thing, because they would definitely not be that obvious. I think it's more likely that it's a pair coding badly than a master-symp coding badly. But hey I'm not discarding any idea here, my point is that Shadow didn't even blink - he outed them without even a single poof of proof that they are scum. Hey just look at the posts Shadow put together, reading that I really don't understand how Shadow could just out them like that.

Edit: removed a superfluous 'than'.

So you think that a master-symp who can't communicate off-thread and therefore plan with each other how to code are more likely to be less obvious with their coding on-thread than a pair that can communicate off-thread. That does not make sense to me.

And why are you so convinced that it's code? Even I, who made a case based partly on it, am not convinced it's anything at all. I put it out there and said 'hey people, what does anyone think of this.' In general, most said it was interesting but probably nothing. But you seem convinced absolutely that it's code and that I've outed someone, but your reasoning for that is flawed.

[Serc]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Serc, on Apr 26 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

Serc, it wasn't obvious until Shadow pointed it out. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that it constitutes as coding, for reveal. It's definitely not communication between symp and master because that would even less be so obvious. The only reason anyone would post such codes on thread is if they meant to reveal or possibly fake reveal.


Edit: I'm not saying I am sure of anything about the outed pair here, I am just concerned that Shadow outed them without thinking twice.

You see that as coding? One guy say a drunken I love you and the other returns it... Checking that we're on the same page here, maybe I'm looking at the wrong post or something. If (hypothetically) Mockras was dead and Driss put that forward as the proof that he had been paired with Mockra I really dont see anyone buying it. Maybe that's just me, but paired coding is normally incredibly convoluted, since the pair can send each other decryption algorithms off thread. Although I do agree it doesnt really come across as a symp/master thing either, that's usually way more one sided.

Well it's definitely some sort of coding - hey it's not my fault it's lousy. Point is, I don't think it's likely it's a master-symp thing, because they would definitely not be that obvious. I think it's more likely that it's a pair coding badly than a master-symp coding badly. But hey I'm not discarding any idea here, my point is that Shadow didn't even blink - he outed them without even a single poof of proof that they are scum. Hey just look at the posts Shadow put together, reading that I really don't understand how Shadow could just out them like that.

Edit: removed a superfluous 'than'.

I can understand the logic of your argument, but to be honest when I read that the possibility that they were paired roled players didnt even cross my mind until you brought it up, I can see how it wouldn't have occured to Shadow either. If that was a pair coding it's really the worst example ever. Lousy doesnt even begin to describe it. Like I said, I dont really agree that it's a symp signalling his master, but since I wouldnt have seen that as coding (and I'm pretty sure most other people here wouldnt have either) I dont really agree with the premise of your case either.

[Meanas]

Shadow, on Apr 26 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

So you think that a master-symp who can't communicate off-thread and therefore plan with each other how to code are more likely to be less obvious with their coding on-thread than a pair that can communicate off-thread. That does not make sense to me.

And why are you so convinced that it's code? Even I, who made a case based partly on it, am not convinced it's anything at all. I put it out there and said 'hey people, what does anyone think of this.' In general, most said it was interesting but probably nothing. But you seem convinced absolutely that it's code and that I've outed someone, but your reasoning for that is flawed.

I'm not sure of anything either, but the mere possibility that it actually is paired innos, then you made a big mistake. And it should have crossed your mind because if it's even remotely possible it's scums, it's also possible they're innos. It just baffles me that you outed them like that.

Serc, on Apr 26 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

I can understand the logic of your argument, but to be honest when I read that the possibility that they were paired roled players didnt even cross my mind until you brought it up, I can see how it wouldn't have occured to Shadow either. If that was a pair coding it's really the worst example ever. Lousy doesnt even begin to describe it. Like I said, I dont really agree that it's a symp signalling his master, but since I wouldnt have seen that as coding (and I'm pretty sure most other people here wouldnt have either) I dont really agree with the premise of your case either.

I didn't see it either until Shadow showed it to me. Post 394, I think it was he directed me to (correct me if I'm wrong). I am having a hard time believing it didn't occur to Shadow - I went to read the post, and was like wtf what if they're innos? And Shadow didn't even think twice that coding can mean inno coding aswell as scum coding. It goes on for several posts - if it just was one post I wouldn't have thought it was coding either. I cringe even discussing it - but I have to assume the scum already noticed. And if we think they're not inno, we have to deal with it.


Edit: spelling

This post has been edited by Meanas: 26 April 2009 - 08:24 PM

[Anomandaris]

what code are you all talking about here, i read the thread and i didnt see anything?

as for who to vote for, i am not swung by feners case, but there do seem to be a lot of people sticking up for mockra. Even still i think omtose put a few strong questions to fener and they tried evading them rather than give straight answers. The aggression as well toward a vast swath of the remaining players seems foolish and unfocused doing little more than confusing things.

vote fener

Not sure if you are a killer/symp type, but there is something strange in your style of play and you seem to be the focus of everyday and until you are gone i think you will continue to hold stage centre which is where a symp would want to be. We failed to lynch yesterday, which i feel was a mistake.

As a note - if meanas is correct about shadow, it is worth noting his expressed reluctance on numerous occassions to vote off tellan.

[Serc]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

Shadow, on Apr 26 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

So you think that a master-symp who can't communicate off-thread and therefore plan with each other how to code are more likely to be less obvious with their coding on-thread than a pair that can communicate off-thread. That does not make sense to me.

And why are you so convinced that it's code? Even I, who made a case based partly on it, am not convinced it's anything at all. I put it out there and said 'hey people, what does anyone think of this.' In general, most said it was interesting but probably nothing. But you seem convinced absolutely that it's code and that I've outed someone, but your reasoning for that is flawed.

I'm not sure of anything either, but the mere possibility that it actually is paired innos, then you made a big mistake. And it should have crossed your mind because if it's even remotely possible it's scums, it's also possible they're innos. It just baffles me that you outed them like that.

Serc, on Apr 26 2009, 10:14 PM, said:

I can understand the logic of your argument, but to be honest when I read that the possibility that they were paired roled players didnt even cross my mind until you brought it up, I can see how it wouldn't have occured to Shadow either. If that was a pair coding it's really the worst example ever. Lousy doesnt even begin to describe it. Like I said, I dont really agree that it's a symp signalling his master, but since I wouldnt have seen that as coding (and I'm pretty sure most other people here wouldnt have either) I dont really agree with the premise of your case either.

I didn't see it either until Shadow showed it to me. Post 394, I think it was he directed me to (correct me if I'm wrong). I am having a hard time believing it didn't occur to Shadow - I went to read the post, and was like wtf what if they're innos? And Shadow didn't even think twice that coding can mean inno coding aswell as scum coding. It goes on for several posts - if it just was one post I wouldn't have thought it was coding either. I cringe even discussing it - but I have to assume the scum already noticed. And if we think they're not inno, we have to deal with it.


Edit: spelling

That's exactly the post that I went back and checked after you started kicking up a fuss. You keep talking about coding, maybe we have different ideas about what coding entails. Driss mentioned Mockra in two one-line posts during drunken RP. To me that doesnt even begin to approach coding. It's not something that happens here as much as on some other mafia boards, but when paired players decide they want to leave codes to back-up a reveal it's normally not something that you'll notice easily. Especially after the Benses game. Like the second letter of the second word of every second sentence is one of the letters of you're lovers name shifted by two positions in the alphabet. Something obscure, but too unlikely to not have been planned. If Driss was doing anything it was signalling, which is completely different. Even then I'm not sold on him signalling Mockra either as I've stated before. If Shadow had even accidently outed paired innos (it's happened before) I would be all over him, but like I said - I dont see how what Driss did would possibly be construed as coding and really didnt see a problem with him drawing attention to it.

[Meanas]

Anomandaris, Shadow directed me to a case he had made post # 394, at which I noticed he actually outed possible paired innos, saying they were coding. I'm not sure it's actually coding, but if it is, it's just as likely to be inno coding, which you would think Shadow would think about before outing them. Apparently he didn't.

I'm keeping my vote on Shadow for now, because his oblivious coding case just irks me. I'm willing to change to Fener if necessary though.

[Meanas]

Serc, I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I think it's a possibility it's actual coding, because I can't see it as anything else, if it's anything. If it's nothing though, not sure what it would be if it's nothing, then I agree that it's no biggie.

[Serc]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

Serc, I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. I think it's a possibility it's actual coding, because I can't see it as anything else, if it's anything. If it's nothing though, not sure what it would be if it's nothing, then I agree that it's no biggie.

Ok, well then we are on completely different pages with respect to coding and signalling in general.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 16 hours and 48 minutes remaining

20 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Fener, Galain, Gamelon, Kessobahn, Korlat, Meanas, Mockra, Omtose, Rashan, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

11 votes to lynch, 10 votes to go to night

1 vote for Mockra: ( Fener)
1 vote for Shadow: ( Meanas)
4 votes for Fener: ( Mockra, Omtose, Anomandaris, Ampelas)

Players not voted: Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Galain, Gamelon, Kessobahn, Korlat, Rashan, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

[Serc]

I'm off to bed, there's still tons of time left before the end of day and there's a whole bunch of people who've been pretty quiet. I'll definitely be on sometime tomorrow morning, hopefully there will have been a bit more discussion by then.

[D'riss]

Oh, FFS, I’m sorry to tell you this Meanas, but there was NO coding. It was stupid (clearly really stupid) drunk RP.

I am not paired with anyone. I am an RI…end of. Now I could hide behind Meanas’ assertion, and if I was scum I probably would, but I am a complete nobody. I can’t speak for Mockra, I have no idea what he is, whether scum or inno.

My reaction to the case on Mockra is based on the fact that I am an inno. And therefore, any case based on my supposed association is going to get short shrift from me. And if Fener actually read my posts he would see that the first few times this ‘association’ was mentioned I laughed it off. As soon as I started to try and give a serious answer then I was overreacting. And that is what I find aggravating about Fener’s throwing out so many cases. It might well be that Mockra is scum (I have no idea), but Fener is making it impossible for me to view the case with anything other than suspicion. I also really dislike Fener’s selective ‘hearing’ when people answer his ‘cases’. If anyone disagrees with him then they are scum…where is the discussion in that?

It's getting to the point that Fener is the 'star' of the show for all the wrong reasons. I'm not convinced that he is scum, but he is trying to control the game, and that in itself is dubious.

[Shadow]

D'riss, on Apr 26 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Oh, FFS, I'm sorry to tell you this Meanas, but there was NO coding. It was stupid (clearly really stupid) drunk RP.

I am not paired with anyone. I am an RI…end of. Now I could hide behind Meanas' assertion, and if I was scum I probably would, but I am a complete nobody. I can't speak for Mockra, I have no idea what he is, whether scum or inno.

My reaction to the case on Mockra is based on the fact that I am an inno. And therefore, any case based on my supposed association is going to get short shrift from me. And if Fener actually read my posts he would see that the first few times this 'association' was mentioned I laughed it off. As soon as I started to try and give a serious answer then I was overreacting. And that is what I find aggravating about Fener's throwing out so many cases. It might well be that Mockra is scum (I have no idea), but Fener is making it impossible for me to view the case with anything other than suspicion. I also really dislike Fener's selective 'hearing' when people answer his 'cases'. If anyone disagrees with him then they are scum…where is the discussion in that?

It's getting to the point that Fener is the 'star' of the show for all the wrong reasons. I'm not convinced that he is scum, but he is trying to control the game, and that in itself is dubious.

I have to say that D'riss has on numerous occasions now given a sensible answer to any questioning he's encountered. This more than anything is what makes me feel my own accusations (regarding D'riss anyway, if not Mockra) are quite tenuous.

Anomandaris, on Apr 26 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

what code are you all talking about here, i read the thread and i didnt see anything?

as for who to vote for, i am not swung by feners case, but there do seem to be a lot of people sticking up for mockra. Even still i think omtose put a few strong questions to fener and they tried evading them rather than give straight answers. The aggression as well toward a vast swath of the remaining players seems foolish and unfocused doing little more than confusing things.

vote fener

Not sure if you are a killer/symp type, but there is something strange in your style of play and you seem to be the focus of everyday and until you are gone i think you will continue to hold stage centre which is where a symp would want to be. We failed to lynch yesterday, which i feel was a mistake.

As a note - if meanas is correct about shadow, it is worth noting his expressed reluctance on numerous occassions to vote off tellan.

This is the best reason that I've seen for voting for Fener - I think D'riss said it too above - too much focus on him and it will continue to be that way until he's gone, leaving the killers to continue unnoticed. This won't end until one of Fener or Mockra is gone, it seems.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. 16 hours and 30 minutes remaining

20 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Fener, Galain, Gamelon, Kessobahn, Korlat, Meanas, Mockra, Omtose, Rashan, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

11 votes to lynch, 10 votes to go to night

1 vote for Mockra: ( Fener)
1 vote for Shadow: ( Meanas)
4 votes for Fener: ( Mockra, Omtose, Anomandaris, Ampelas)

Players not voted: Barghast, D'riss, Emurlahn, Galain, Gamelon, Kessobahn, Korlat, Rashan, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

[Tellan]

@ D'riss:
it's irritating, is what it is

oh, and hello people,

It would seem I wasn't lynched yesterday. I suppose I'm grateful.

I just got home after spending a hungover morning carrying heavy htings and then being in a train for 3 hours.
I have about an hour-long window of free time, then I'm gone for the evening.

What questions did people want me to answer?

This post has been edited by Tellan: 26 April 2009 - 09:16 PM

[Fener]

D'riss, on Apr 26 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

My reaction to the case on Mockra is based on the fact that I am an inno. And therefore, any case based on my supposed association is going to get short shrift from me.

If you'll read the case, it's not entirely based on that. There's lots more to it, most notably the later OMGUS reaction, which happened after the actual case was made. And i'm surprised nobody else has commented on that.

Quote

And that is what I find aggravating about Fener's throwing out so many cases. It might well be that Mockra is scum (I have no idea), but Fener is making it impossible for me to view the case with anything other than suspicion. I also really dislike Fener's selective 'hearing' when people answer his 'cases'. If anyone disagrees with him then they are scum…where is the discussion in that?

I don't think this game is suffering from an overabundance of cases. If more people make more cases, I won't have to. As things stand most people are sitting back, waiting for something to happen, and then when someone does make something happen they use that as an excuse to attack that person.

Quote

It's getting to the point that Fener is the 'star' of the show for all the wrong reasons. I'm not convinced that he is scum, but he is trying to control the game, and that in itself is dubious.

Yeah, i'm not comfortable being the "star" either. But it happened.

[Fener]

Tellan, on Apr 26 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

What questions did people want me to answer?

I think the most important question right now is, would you rather lynch me or Mockra?

This post has been edited by Fener: 26 April 2009 - 09:20 PM

[Anomandaris]

@tellan - why the fatalism yesterday?

[Tellan]

@ Fener:
lol
to be honest, your pushiness continues to irritate me, and when push comes to shove I'll toss a vote your way, especially considering how slow the weekend's going.

As it stands, nothing has changed with regards to my earlier attitude that both of you are likely innos. I'll need a re-read to see who I think looks like scum.

This post has been edited by Tellan: 26 April 2009 - 09:35 PM