Toll The Hounds What?
#1
Posted 22 April 2009 - 05:37 PM
As someone who has to admit that this installment in the series was dissapointing, I look for reasons. I am not going to say that he has run out of things to say or that the plot has gotten away from him. I will ask a simple question: What does the title Toll the Hounds mean
#2
Posted 22 April 2009 - 05:44 PM
Damned if I now.
In RG there was mention of a... Rhivi? saying, I believe it is Toc that mentions it, called "The Hounds Toll". But it is never explained
In RG there was mention of a... Rhivi? saying, I believe it is Toc that mentions it, called "The Hounds Toll". But it is never explained
#3
Posted 22 April 2009 - 05:58 PM
The line also comes up in Toll the Hounds.
Cougar said:
Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful
worry said:
Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
#4
Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:01 PM
Yeah, I thought it was talking about the death toll of the results to come.
There was a line that led me to believe that, but I don't have my copy with me.
There was a line that led me to believe that, but I don't have my copy with me.
#5
Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:32 PM
could it not be something simple like the hounds of shadow, light, darkness? or would that be very obvious?
#6
Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:15 PM
I never interpreted the word "toll" as payment, rather more along the lines of "for whom the bell tolls". Check out this list; I'd put money on number four:
"dictionary.com" said:
toll /toʊl/ [tohl],
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
#7
Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:18 PM
I like # 3. Consider the discussions between Tulas Shorn and ST & Cots.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
#8
Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:19 PM
Salt-Man Z, on Apr 22 2009, 10:15 PM, said:
I never interpreted the word "toll" as payment, rather more along the lines of "for whom the bell tolls". Check out this list; I'd put money on number four:
"dictionary.com" said:
toll /toʊl/ [tohl],
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
I'll buy it. Nice quote good sir.
#10
Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:30 AM
I agree that #3 isn't bad, and 5/6 are devilishly intriguing.
But "Summoning the Hounds"... that's pretty much what happens at the end of TtH. Both the Hounds of Shadow and of Light, summoned to Darujhistan by one thing or another.
But "Summoning the Hounds"... that's pretty much what happens at the end of TtH. Both the Hounds of Shadow and of Light, summoned to Darujhistan by one thing or another.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
#11
Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:34 AM
Oh, I get your point, and I think it is a solid theory. I guess my theory is that it would make sense if that was the interpretation for a chapter title or something. It doesn't strike me as "all encompassing" as a book title does.
Tulas Shorn states that the Hounds are a warning. K'rul states that he is the prize at the end of the road, and he is the Maker of Warrens.
The Hounds of Light as an announcement that the Warrens are in true upheaval makes sense to me. Thus: Toll the Hounds.
Tulas Shorn states that the Hounds are a warning. K'rul states that he is the prize at the end of the road, and he is the Maker of Warrens.
The Hounds of Light as an announcement that the Warrens are in true upheaval makes sense to me. Thus: Toll the Hounds.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
#12
Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:07 AM
So basically Toll the Hounds is "Announcing the Hounds"?
Couldn't he just have named it "Here Come the Hounds"... wait, no... that would have kinky connotations
Couldn't he just have named it "Here Come the Hounds"... wait, no... that would have kinky connotations
Forum Member from the Old Days. Alive, but mostly inactive/ occasionally lurking
#13
Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:02 PM
I like 3, relating to a particular someones death. The arrival of the hounds of light in a way annouced his death.
#14
Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:17 PM
It says something about SE's skill that he can even make a book title incredibly ambivalent in its meaning...
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
#15
Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:19 PM
I don't think ambiguity is a plus for a writer. . . .
That said i think the hounds were tolled . . . the question is were they summoned or dismissed? and to what end, does their appearance or dissapearance signify anything?
Yes, I am sure that it does, but what?
That said i think the hounds were tolled . . . the question is were they summoned or dismissed? and to what end, does their appearance or dissapearance signify anything?
Yes, I am sure that it does, but what?
#16
Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:57 PM
baltimorebull, on Apr 23 2009, 12:19 PM, said:
I don't think ambiguity is a plus for a writer. . . .
The sheer volume of discussion on these boards is (to me) clear evidence otherwise.
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
#17
Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:18 PM
#18
Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:42 PM
baltimorebull, on Apr 23 2009, 08:18 PM, said:
Nice reply, good sir!
But really, I find this particular discussion an excellent example of how clever the title is. Continue reading further down for explanation!
Salt-Man Z, on Apr 22 2009, 10:15 PM, said:
I never interpreted the word "toll" as payment, rather more along the lines of "for whom the bell tolls". Check out this list; I'd put money on number four:
"dictionary.com" said:
toll /toʊl/ [tohl],
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
–verb (used with object)
1. to cause (a large bell) to sound with single strokes slowly and regularly repeated, as for summoning a congregation to church, or esp. for announcing a death.
2. to sound or strike (a knell, the hour, etc.) by such strokes: In the distance Big Ben tolled five.
3. to announce by this means; ring a knell for (a dying or dead person).
4. to summon or dismiss by tolling.
5. to lure or decoy (game) by arousing curiosity.
6. to allure; entice: He tolls us on with fine promises.
I stumbled upon this thread and over this example of clever use of a dictionary and just thought WHOA! Of COURSE!!!!
All the time I thought of "toll" as the payment, but this is just extraordinary: Every meaning (maybe with the exception of No. 2) fits and makes sense in some way or another, and I bet my grandmother that that's the reason why SE called this book the way he did. Fuck me, that was an eye-opener! Huge imaginary rep for everyone involved and even more of it for Salt-Man Z!
Ganymed - can now finally sleep peacefully
FIDELITY, n. A virtue peculiar to those who are about to be betrayed.
#19
Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:38 PM
The title Toll the Hounds could have, and in all likelihood does, have more than one meaning behind it.
However, regarding the saying that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it does in fact refer to 'toll' as 'payment', rather than 'summoning' or 'announcing'. As in, you pay the Hounds (whatever the hounds are meant to represent in that particular context you're uttering the saying in) in order to either avoid something, have something happen, say thanks for something, or say sorry for something.
The 'toll' or 'payment' is not meant literally, but in a figurative sense. That is, you're admitting that something has happened which requires some sort of significant investment (emotional, physical, monetary or otherwise) from you.
In the book, a lot of characters are having to perform sacrifices of one sort or another, they're 'tolling the hounds.'
Of course, another meaning is the more readily apparent allusion to the role of the Hounds of Light and Shadow in the novel.
However, regarding the saying that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it does in fact refer to 'toll' as 'payment', rather than 'summoning' or 'announcing'. As in, you pay the Hounds (whatever the hounds are meant to represent in that particular context you're uttering the saying in) in order to either avoid something, have something happen, say thanks for something, or say sorry for something.
The 'toll' or 'payment' is not meant literally, but in a figurative sense. That is, you're admitting that something has happened which requires some sort of significant investment (emotional, physical, monetary or otherwise) from you.
In the book, a lot of characters are having to perform sacrifices of one sort or another, they're 'tolling the hounds.'
Of course, another meaning is the more readily apparent allusion to the role of the Hounds of Light and Shadow in the novel.
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
#20
Posted 24 April 2009 - 02:06 AM
Khellendros, on Apr 23 2009, 04:38 PM, said:
However, regarding the saying that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it does in fact refer to 'toll' as 'payment', rather than 'summoning' or 'announcing'. As in, you pay the Hounds (whatever the hounds are meant to represent in that particular context you're uttering the saying in) in order to either avoid something, have something happen, say thanks for something, or say sorry for something.
As far as the saying "the Hounds' toll" that was mentioned in RG, I'll buy that, absolutely. But I don't see any way that can work for the book (and chapter) title "Toll the Hounds", as the object indicated (the Hounds) is the party making payment, not receiving it:
dictionary.com said:
toll /toʊl/ [tohl]
-verb (used with object)
8. to collect (something) as toll.
9. to impose a tax or toll on (a person).
-verb (used with object)
8. to collect (something) as toll.
9. to impose a tax or toll on (a person).
This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 24 April 2009 - 02:07 AM
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch
―Gene Wolfe, The Citadel of the Autarch