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The Elder Scrolls Series First Person RPG Goodness

#21 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:56 AM

@Apt - I went round emptying caves and Ayleid ruins of their resident bandits/vampires etc before I went to the first oblivion gate - because once you go past the Kvatch sequence, more gates appear across the landscape.

By the time I went into the first oblivion gate, I could summon a Clanfear, which helped to clear a path while I took on anything that got past it.

@ Silencer - I found a lot of the main quest missions in Morrowind were the same - trudge to island, talk to/collect/kill item/person, travel back, get sent off to another distant place again...and again. And what was that big city in the south? Walking through that place endlessly, carrying messages between people got seriously dull.

When after all that trudging, I walked into a cave and killed the bad guy at the end of the main quest in about a minute, I was less than happy.

But - I liked the fact that I could try and take on dungeons that were intended for players of a higher level, early in the game, to get big rewards. I didn't know about the levelling scale thing, but I think thats the gist of it - in morrowind, a cave could be full of high level creatures that would totally kill you early in the game; but in oblivion they are scaled to be just a bit better, so if you hit them early in the game, you can still take them out.

In Morrowind, I used to sneak into high level places to steal glass armour and treasure, and it was a real challenge. In Oblivion though, since I cleared out loads of dungeons at the beginning of the game, (as it was so easy) when I returned to them during quests everyone was dead already, and there was little challenge.

Ideally I'd like a combination of the two - with some Fallout 3. Morrowind was also frustrating as it was almost impossible to sell valuable items as the vendors didn't have enough money. I ended up with rooms full of magic items and armour and nowhere to sell it!

Why does your character in these games always have to be a big hero? I liked being an anonymous assassin in morrowind, but I ended up with all these titles and everyone recognising me. I'd really like to see some bigger enemies too - not all just people who fight the same way. If they can do Supermutant Behemoths, they can do Giants, bigger bears - where are the dragons?! Fast travel is a bit of a cheat too, bring back the big flea-things!

This post has been edited by Traveller: 20 April 2009 - 08:04 AM

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#22 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:10 AM

Yeah, fast-travel sucked.

But look at the main quest of Oblivion, Traveller - go here, get this, return. And you could fast-travel somewhere close and skip out all the walking. As for that big city (which, despite being physically smaller in scale than the Imperial City, was actually far larger in travel time), was Vivec, the home of the man-God Vivec. And it was pretty awesome, though the travel times in it (and some of the quests, as you say, were pretty dull in there) was appalling. At the same time, you say you don't always want to be a big hero...well...then the quests will be dull! ;)

Level Scaling in Oblivion was an attempt to ensure there was always a challenge, but not too much of a challenge. That's what they thought people wanted. It failed miserably, because all the creatures ended up weaker than the character. AND, what's worse, the loot scaled. This meant that while in Morrowind, there was the grand total of ONE suit of Daedric armour (full suit - consisting of pieces greaves, guantlets, left and right gloves, left and right pauldrons, boots, cuirass, and helmet), in Oblivion...well...anyone who gets to level 25 - be prepared to face BANDITS with Daedric items. BANDITS, FFS. :)

They could do larger creatures, and probably should, but at the same time their health system is flawed. (Have you played Shivering Isles? There is a large opponent in that). Think about it, repeatedly hacking at a large creature's legs (say...40 to 50 hits) is NOT fun. And if they hit you...you'd be crushed. So they really need to do an overhaul of the combat and the health before they do that.

Oh, and the fatigue bar (aside from the lulz that your fatigue DECREASES), in Oblivion you could somehow run forever. I mean...wtf? Sure, you're a tough ex-con, and whatever you did before could make you really tough...but you don't lose ANY fatigue from running. For miles. XD

The only thing I don't miss from Morrowind is the Cliff Racers. And everybody hated those. :p
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



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#23 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:33 AM

View PostSilencer, on Apr 20 2009, 10:10 AM, said:

Level Scaling in Oblivion was an attempt to ensure there was always a challenge, but not too much of a challenge. That's what they thought people wanted. It failed miserably, because all the creatures ended up weaker than the character.


I'm not quite sure of what this means.

Before when I was playing on normal difficulty anything from a bandit, a skeleton warrior to a pig will beat the ever loving shit out of me one on one. Demons will just kill me if I don't have a potion or magic heal. I have to run from trolls and packs of wilderbeast. pretty much anything can kill me and my shield doesn't protect properly from hits only decreasing the damage from the impact.

And this is when I try to fight things one on one, as soon as there is two or more opponents I am constantly back pedalling desperatly trying to squeze one more "magic heal" out of my pathetic mana bar.

THIS IS NOT BEING WEAKER THAN ME, THIS IS BEING WAY STRONGER THAN ME.

Now I've got the difficulty bad set at around 1/5 of the top difficulty setting. That is insane difficulty. I have no idea how you are supposed to play the game on max difficulty. You'd need to be some kind of weird omnipotent basement dveller with all kinds of mods.
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#24 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:46 AM

You must be running a mod that enhances their strength. Hrm..go and find a guard, any guard, and fight him. How many hits does it take, and how fast do you win. (If you don't win, I'm afraid you're doing something wrong. Check the levelled lists, you can beat guards easy. I can do it with my warriors - assassins and mages are harder, as they have lower endurance = lower health)


Here is their base stats:

Combat (Blade, Block, Blunt, Heavy Armour) = 45-50
Attributes (Endurance, Strength) = 67
Health = 127
Fatigue = 222
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



"For the record, I'm pretty sure my mind was shouting 'CLICHESTORM' over and over again during the opening of Skyrim...just putting that out there.." - Me.


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#25 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:48 AM

View PostSilencer, on Apr 20 2009, 09:10 AM, said:

At the same time, you say you don't always want to be a big hero...well...then the quests will be dull! :)

They could do larger creatures, and probably should, but at the same time their health system is flawed. (Have you played Shivering Isles? There is a large opponent in that). Think about it, repeatedly hacking at a large creature's legs (say...40 to 50 hits) is NOT fun. And if they hit you...you'd be crushed. So they really need to do an overhaul of the combat and the health before they do that.


My point was, that the games have so many different ways to personalise and create a character with specific skills, only to all get lumped together in the main quest. I didn't even play a whole lot of the main quest in Oblivion, as I found the character specific ones, like the mages guild or dark brotherhood missions were a lot more imaginative and fun - without having to find out that you're the 'chosen one' *sigh*.

I don't really like the way you can join every guild either. The guild missions should only be possible for someone who has the correct skills and abilities as far as I'm concerned. And, as a thief or whatever, conversation/trade and mission options should be open that aren't if you're a mage.

As to the giants - the whole hack and slash idea is my problem. It doesn't have to be like that. If you meet a dragon or frost giant or something, IF you are a skillful archer, you should be able to put an arow through his eye. Or the back of his knee - which might bring him down, so you can then have a hack at his neck or something. If you're not skilled, then you do get crushed. As a mage, you might be able to paralyze one limb, say, or set fire to the weapon he's holding. It would also justify upgrading certain spells. Beyond a certain point in oblivion, all destruction spells basically do the same thing - it would be nice if when you got confronted with something that previously chased you off, and be able to douse it in fire or disintegrate it or something equally impressive, that makes it worthwhile to gain experience.

I like games where boss battles require a bit of strategy and thought, rather than just hitting something a certain number of times, and I don't see why it would be so hard to fit a variety of enemies with different weaknesses into the game. These ideas would probably require a form of VATS, adapted to the scenario - like the arrow in the eye thing; it would only work if you were a good archer.
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#26 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:28 AM

I agree completely with your vision of the combat thing, and the spells were very boring, even if the basic effects looked better than Morrowind, they still did the same thing. :)

Yeah, if you check out that article I linked on page one, then Bethesda have admitted they were wrong to put the ability to head all the guilds. PC users can get the Choices and Consequences mod to add faction reputation and skill requirements to advancing in the mages and fighter's guilds (means you actually have to be a mage to advance in the mages guild. XD)
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



"For the record, I'm pretty sure my mind was shouting 'CLICHESTORM' over and over again during the opening of Skyrim...just putting that out there.." - Me.


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#27 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:40 AM

Silencer... you did notice that "appology" was posted on april 1st, right? I mean the whole thing is written tongue in cheek.

Anyway, yeah even the guards kick my ass, but my skills aren't as high as what you're describing them having either.

I'll go home and look at my active mods.
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#28 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:55 AM

(I hope he knew that already... they did get a bit carried away about half way through!)
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#29 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:19 PM

Quote

I don't really like the way you can join every guild either. The guild missions should only be possible for someone who has the correct skills and abilities as far as I'm concerned. And, as a thief or whatever, conversation/trade and mission options should be open that aren't if you're a mage.


I figure if you're a fighter and actually roleplaying, then why would you decide to join the mages guild? Having gone through the game a couple times with different classes, I just picked the guild that fit my class rather than trying to do everything.

I do find it fun and more challenging to try and truly balance my character. Like doing the Knights of the Nine questline...I decided I wanted to play all paladin-ey so I made a fighter but sacrificed the melee, endurance and strength a bit so that I could level up the usual paladin side skills like healing. I found it kept me from getting too OP and just walking over every enemy standing between me and my goal.

You're right though, it sucks that in Oblivion the user has to purposely underpower him/herself in the above manner to keep the challenge in the game. With a bit of personal restraint you can keep it fun. Sure you can jack your endurance, strength and sword skills at the expense of everything else and run in duke nukem style, hackslashing with no regard for blocking (which I did with my first character) but its way more fun to get in close combat and actually use the shield, or sneak up and fire an arrow into somebody's back before you charge.
........oOOOOOo
......//| | |oO
.....|| | | | O....
BEERS!

......
\\| | | |

........'-----'

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#30 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:26 PM

I love being a part of the Fighters and Mages guilds because that means I can take what ever I want from where ever I want. The guild factions I've been in so far, by now have very sparcelly furnished rooms since I've fenced pretty much anything but the furniture and the cheapest knick Knacks like cutlery and food.
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#31 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:34 PM

@Apt, to give you a comparison for the guards, my new (level 1) assassin character started with 44 Endurence (no modifiers - no birthsigns), and 90 health. Plus, I have a nice blade skill of 55. I can take down a guard relatively easily...do you move, when fighting? Or do you stand still - because you should move. Seriously. It's better than block!

Yes, it was posted on April 1st, and was tongue-in-cheek. However, Bethsoft has acknowledged that level scaling was a bad idea and that they'll never use it "in that way" again. :)

And joining the guilds so you can get the stuff is bad! Means you are roleplaying a lying thief, Apt! *Grawr*
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



"For the record, I'm pretty sure my mind was shouting 'CLICHESTORM' over and over again during the opening of Skyrim...just putting that out there.." - Me.


~Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.~
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#32 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:47 PM

View PostSilencer, on Apr 20 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

@Apt, to give you a comparison for the guards, my new (level 1) assassin character started with 44 Endurence (no modifiers - no birthsigns), and 90 health. Plus, I have a nice blade skill of 55. I can take down a guard relatively easily...do you move, when fighting? Or do you stand still - because you should move. Seriously. It's better than block!


I'mn not exactly a novice at playing Action games, I jump and duck and weave, move around to get one enemy to block anothers fire, etc. etc. But those bastards are still tricky.

And I have yet to fight a guard after scalling down the difficuly but before I could hardly even make a dent in the guards hp, so they must have been pretty freakishly strong.

View PostSilencer, on Apr 20 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

And joining the guilds so you can get the stuff is bad! Means you are roleplaying a lying thief, Apt! *Grawr*


I'm a convicted criminal. Obviously I was put in jail for being a murderous, thieving, bastard. But I'm trying to improve myself and so throw myself into dangerous situations to help people, to redeem myself. But sometimes I slip up and steal something or accidentally stab people.

I'm playing a conflicted psycopath :)
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#33 User is offline   beru 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:53 AM

ive played a char on oblivon up to lvl 43 and he is a lightarmored blade weilding archermageassasin and do go for all guilds (including dark brotherhood and thives guild) beacuse in mages guild you can enchant items in dark brotherhood you get tons of money, the thives guild open fences for you and fightersguild gives you items when you get to the rak of grandmaster.

join all but dont join the dark brotherhood early

dont pick fights with guards thats not smart
to kill inside oblivion gates use the tarain lava is effective

just ask if you want to learn more :D
i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels
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#34 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:01 AM

View Postberu, on Apr 21 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

ive played a char on oblivon up to lvl 43 and he is a lightarmored blade weilding archermageassasin and do go for all guilds (including dark brotherhood and thives guild) beacuse in mages guild you can enchant items in dark brotherhood you get tons of money, the thives guild open fences for you and fightersguild gives you items when you get to the rak of grandmaster.


Is there actually any conflicts that occur by being a member of everything? The one I am most worried about is the Dark Brotherhood. It can't possibly be a good thing to both trying to get in the gods good graces and mean while stalking around killed people in their sleep.

I have for the same reason not continued the dark brotherhood quests yet, because I didn't want to get a bad standing with some priest or something.

View Postberu, on Apr 21 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

join all but dont join the dark brotherhood early


Why? Because of the rewards?

View Postberu, on Apr 21 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

dont pick fights with guards thats not smart


Yeah, I found that early. By the way, never pick the door to guard towers, not a clever thing to do :p

I've been thinking of installing the "No psykic guards" mod because it's just damn irritating that a guard appears out of no where.

View Postberu, on Apr 21 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

to kill inside oblivion gates use the tarain lava is effective


Yes, this stuff is great. At one point I killed a whole swarm of demons by jumping in and out of a stream of lava. It hurt me but the demons just charged right in :D

View Postberu, on Apr 21 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

just ask if you want to learn more :D


Is there a max level you can reach? And does my strength, health, etc max out at some point?
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#35 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:05 AM

Attributes max out at 100, no level cap, but you can get a max of about 57 (due to maxing out all skills that count towards your level increases), based upon your starting skills

Join DB later because it gives better rewards (more levelled - you can get some Daedric armour of the Orc if you wait long enough). There is no conflict with joining multiple guilds, except for the Knights of the Nine, where you must have zero infamy to complete that quest (it's an add-on).

:D
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



"For the record, I'm pretty sure my mind was shouting 'CLICHESTORM' over and over again during the opening of Skyrim...just putting that out there.." - Me.


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#36 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:28 AM

I was running Mage guild quests and Thieves quests at the same time - I had a sort of clash, when I was simultaneously doing a mission from the Arch-Mage, and trying to steal his staff at the same time.

Joining 2 guilds isn't somehow anti-roleplaying; certain combinations of skills in a character like a battle-mage, for example, make it plausable to be a member of both the Mages Guild and the Fighters Guild.

My character started out as a thief, with a strong magic capability. As I went through the thieves quests, I increased stealth, and magic to unlock doors. While I was crap at melee, ranged and blunt etc, I could sneak about and empty a whole dungeon by using stealth and magic combos. So I joined the mages guild - and got a staff with 'paralyze' on it, which helped even more.

I also worked my way through the DB. It all seemed to work well in terms of character development, apart from the aspect of the game that means that guild missions automatically mean that you end up as head of the guild, which I don't think is necessary.
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#37 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:36 AM

Yes, the ability to join every guild is not realistic. Except, you know, that's like holding down four full-time jobs at once. XD

Think about how much you have to be away from one guild, while you go across the map to do a quest for another. Or, if you are in the DB, you are expected to be at the Sanctuary, and only be away on missions or in free time (free time meaning not taken up by training). It should be possible to be a member of them all, but there shouldn't be some free membership that you don't have to do in anything in. While it should be possible to head all the guilds, it should not be as easy as it is - it should take some effort. Plus, you can complete the Mages Guild without ever casting a spell. Er...what?
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Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.



"For the record, I'm pretty sure my mind was shouting 'CLICHESTORM' over and over again during the opening of Skyrim...just putting that out there.." - Me.


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#38 User is offline   beru 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:52 AM

there is one clash when you is about to steal somthing (cant remember what) from fatis arens tower (you will then be exspelled from the mages guild) but with the arcemage chest you can build up a store of 20 redwort flowers and 20 dragons tuonge(sp)

and the Dark brotherhood wait is beacuse the rewards

oblivoin gates gives atotaly überenchant that is totaly owerpoverd when you get the most powerfull verson to get the one you want (you dont want 50+ blunt when you have a blade) quick save vile standing infront of the stone and quick load if you get one you dont want...
i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels
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#39 User is offline   cerveza_fiesta 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:31 AM

View PostTraveller, on Apr 21 2009, 04:28 AM, said:

Joining 2 guilds isn't somehow anti-roleplaying; certain combinations of skills in a character like a battle-mage, for example, make it plausable to be a member of both the Mages Guild and the Fighters Guild.


You're right, but joining/leading all 4 or 5 factions (including mods) isn't really roleplaying really.... Not that I'm a crazy purist or anything, but beating every possible thing in an RPG and maxing out all levels of everything is called powergaming. Being the chief fightermagethiefassasinpaladin, even though the game mechanics allow it is kinda lame.

Agree with the earlier comment that game mechanics shouldn't allow you to become the leader of all factions, cos that's just silly.
........oOOOOOo
......//| | |oO
.....|| | | | O....
BEERS!

......
\\| | | |

........'-----'

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#40 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 07:15 PM

So, I stayed a night in Deepwater Cove and now I am a Vampire.

Anyone have advice on what I should chose to do?

On one hand I get all kinds of awesome attributes, on the other I become very vulnerable to fire and weak under sun. This is kind of a problem when you're fighting flamming demons.

Does it have any effect on my interaction with people and the quests I get?

I think I remember reading that as long as I feed every 1-2 days the side effects aren't that bad and people don't notice you're a bloodsucking fiend.

It's kind of ironic since I just recieved a quest from a bunch of vampire hunters to stalk and kill a possible vampire in the Capital.
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