[Macros]

So this is a TV show or stand alone film?

Obviously disconnected from the MCU?

[polishgenius]

It's a movie. Disconnected from the MCU but the gimmick of the comic event it's named after was 'every single spider-person is in it' and while they couldn't get the licensing to actually make that true they did refer to Maguire and Garfield, and with the links currently between Sony and Marvel I wouldn't be shocked to see a Tom Holland-voiced cameo if it is really based on that story rather than just loosely nabbing the title.

[D'rek]

Macros, on 06 June 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

So this is a TV show or stand alone film?

Obviously disconnected from the MCU?

It's a film

[QuickTidal]

I ADORE these movies.

[Nevyn]

Any move away from Bay has to help Transformers, the question is how much?

More realistic transforming is nice and all. Dumping product tie ins for the vehicles also nice

But there is still the open question whether live action TF is a particularly good idea to start with, and whether the stories/characters really hold up to feature films.


They still seem to be stumbling on one of the biggest disconnects (and likely will always have to) ... making it human centred rather than robot. The original cartoons had the transformers as driving characters, and the few actual people were little more than a side note. But bringing that into live action they obsess on human interaction with the transformers.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 07 June 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

and whether the stories/characters really hold up to feature films.[/size]

This assumes that they hold up in the original cartoon. Nostalgia glasses off...they don't.

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 07 June 2018 - 03:43 PM, said:

This assumes that they hold up in the original cartoon. Nostalgia glasses off...they don't.

It does not assume that.

They held up at the time when we were kids. But if you could do a completely loyal live action revisit for kids of the 80s today, it would make for bad movies/TV. That was my point.

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 07 June 2018 - 04:18 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 07 June 2018 - 03:43 PM, said:

This assumes that they hold up in the original cartoon. Nostalgia glasses off...they don't.

It does not assume that.

They held up at the time when we were kids. But if you could do a completely loyal live action revisit for kids of the 80s today, it would make for bad movies/TV. That was my point.

Quote

But there is still the open question whether live action TF is a particularly good idea to start with, and whether the stories/characters really hold up to feature films.

^^this statement does not specify that a "direct adaptation of the cartoon" was what you meant.

"Live action TF" can refer to any of the latter shows, From Beast Wars/Beast Machines (both of which are excellent) up to Transformers Prime (also excellent). And were you then talking about G1, G2, Headmasters, TF: RiD? They are all different and served different purposes. The 1985 animated movie? Which one? If you're not specific, how are we meant to discuss it?

Bottom line is that TF as live action is absolutely a fine premise with decent archetype characters to make really amazing content, as much as the comics showcase. You just need the right writer or set of writers to do it. The concept is fine.

Does a direct adaptation of the G1 series work? Probably not (but who would do such a thing anyways? Not the BUMBLEBEE movie we are discussing, that's for sure), but a direct adaptation of some of the other old TF media very easily could.

[Macros]

Sounds like it's time for an internet geek fight!

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 07 June 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Sounds like it's time for an internet geek fight!

It's ALWAYS time for an internet geek fight.

Sadly, I am less armed for a TF one than it might seem.

[Macros]

QT with a classic move designed to make his opponent underestimate him

[QuickTidal]

I feel like the best armed person for such a conflict is Salt-Man Z, our resident TF aficionado.

[Salt-Man Z]

Nevyn, on 07 June 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

The original cartoons had the transformers as driving characters, and the few actual people were little more than a side note.

I think you haven't watched the original G1 cartoon in a while. It was pretty darn human-centric in general, with recurring sidekicks like (off the top of my head) Spike, Sparkplug, Carly, Chip Chase, Daniel, Marissa Faireborn, Raoul, and even human villains like Cobra ("Old Snake") Commander and Dr. Arkeville. Not to mention at least 3 episodes that revolved around a human/TF romance ("The Girl Who Loved Powerglide" being Exihibit A.) (Also it, uh, really isn't that great, looking back.)

The original Marvel comic was highly human-centric for the first 50 issues or so, while still doing better TF character-building than the cartoon ever did.

And yes, film is an entirely different medium than a cartoon or a comic. But what works better as a feature film: "girl and her transforming car"? or "Star Wars but all the people just happen to be transforming robots"? People complain about the Michael Bay movies having too many humans in them, but arguably the best one by far is still the first one, which mostly focused on the humans and their interactions with the TFs.

I'm not saying you can't tell great TF stories without humans (the current run of critically-acclaimed comics mostly manage that) but claiming that human-centric TF stories are the problem is just flat-out wrong.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 07 June 2018 - 05:19 PM

[Nevyn]

Of course I haven't watched it in awhile, but it was not human centric at all compared to the films. I didn't say there were NO people. But watch any episode and any film, and count for me:

1) Scenes with only transformers interacting with one another and no humans, or a human present but saying nothing.
vs
2) Scenes with only humans and no transformers.

The films focus on the impact to and reaction by humans to the presence of transformers. G1 had some token humans, and a few episodes may have rotated around humans, but the focus was largely on the robots.

And calling the first the best Bay movie is more indictment than praise. It was a steaming pile of garbage regardless of its relative position.

Oh, and I'd take the Star Wars with robots. If I want a girl and her sentient car, I'll watch a Herbie remake.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 07 June 2018 - 06:34 PM

[QuickTidal]

Nevyn, on 07 June 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

Of course I haven't watched it in awhile, but it was not human centric at all compared to the films. I didn't say there were NO people. But watch any episode and any film, and count for me:

1) Scenes with only transformers interacting with one another and no humans, or a human present but saying nothing.
vs
2) Scenes with only humans and no transformers.

The films focus on the impact to and reaction by humans to the presence of transformers. G1 had some token humans, and a few episodes may have rotated around humans, but the focus was largely on the robots.

And calling the first the best Bay movie is more indictment than praise. It was a steaming pile of garbage regardless of its relative position.

Oh, and I'd take the Star Wars with robots. If I want a girl and her sentient car, I'll watch a Herbie remake.

Not being aware of Salt-Man's level of Transformers fandom? This ought to be fun.

I am the Bachelorette, on 07 June 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

I rather thought 1&2(still don’t get the hate) we’re really good. Ex wife loved them both to. 3&4 are shit. Haven’t seen 5 yet.

I liked 5. It's batshit crazy....but I was entertained. Even though I HATE Wahlberg.

And 1 is a GREAT movie. It's not trash by any stretch of the imagination.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 June 2018 - 06:50 PM

[Nevyn]

[worry]

Bumblebee is directed by Travis Knight, a long time member of the Laika crew and director of Kubo and the Two Strings which was close to a masterpiece. I'll just say, if any TF movie has a chance at goodness (let alone greatness) it's this one.

[QuickTidal]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 07 June 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Bumblebee is directed by Travis Knight, a long time member of the Laika crew and director of Kubo and the Two Strings which was close to a masterpiece. I'll just say, if any TF movie has a chance at goodness (let alone greatness) it's this one.

That's my takeaway too. The man knows how to construct a narrative. I LOVE his work.

and don't forget he was lead animator on PARANORMAN and BOX TROLLS.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 07 June 2018 - 07:24 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 07 June 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

Not being aware of Salt-Man's level of Transformers fandom? This ought to be fun.

Yes, I'm the guy who took his username from the name of an Argentinian-exclusive Transformers toy that he purchased at an official convention, having created said handle for use as a senior member of a still-active TF messageboard that is old to enough to vote in the US, why do you ask?

But no, I'm not going to get into a fight over this. Just trying to point out that the extensive use of human characters in the franchise is anything but a detriment, and is in fact rather a tradition. (I recommend checking out Marvel issue #20 for perhaps the best example of this, one that a lot of fans are making reference to since the Bee trailer came out, in fact.)

QuickTidal, on 07 June 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

And 1 is a GREAT movie. It's not trash by any stretch of the imagination.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it great. It was certainly a surprise that it was as good as it was, and a good start to the franchise. (Just rewatched it with my kids the other week, and it still holds up as being largely enjoyable.) I will always defend Bay as being a talented director. (Check out Lindsay Ellis' current YouTube series "The Whole Plate" for some exemplary film-school dissection of his TF movies.) He's certainly been hamstrung by scripts that are mostly garbage (and some of that is definitely on him: part of why #2 sucks so bad is that he wrote chunks of it himself while the writers guild was on strike) but also it seems he just wants to make Big Dumb Action Movies, so sadly that's pretty much all we've gotten thus far. It reeeeally looks like Travis Knight is gonna change that, though. ::crosses fingers::

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 07 June 2018 - 07:55 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Salt-Man Z, on 07 June 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 07 June 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

Not being aware of Salt-Man's level of Transformers fandom? This ought to be fun.

Yes, I'm the guy who took his username from the name of an Argentinian-exclusive Transformers toy that he purchased at an official convention, having created said handle for use as a senior member of a still-active TF messageboard that is old to enough to vote in the US, why do you ask?

Note that the above was not intended to be a "I'm more of a fan than you!" post, so hopefully it won't be taken in that fashion. I just thought it an amusing way to highlight my "level of Transformers fandom", as Scott put it. (Or to reveal what a colossal nerd I am.)