[Aptorian]

Finished Thor: Ragnarok.

This might be the best Marvel film they've made. Funny that I hated the first Thor and disliked the second, only for the third to possibly be my favorite entry into the franchise.

Extremely funny and silly which some how turned out to be the right take on an apocalyptic film. The writing is terrible when ever it takes itself serious but in between that it's a film that just goes.

When I saw who The Grandmaster's right hand was and then heard the Kiwi accent of rock guy, I had a sneaking suspicion about who either the writer or the director was. Looking the film up on IMDB I was right, this is the same director who did Hunt for the Wilder People, Taiki Waititi. It shines through out the film. Surprising how well that wit and humor translated from a small heart warming film with Sam Neil to a blockbuster Marvel film.

[QuickTidal]

Alternative Goose, on 26 March 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Finished Thor: Ragnarok.

This might be the best Marvel film they've made. Funny that I hated the first Thor and disliked the second, only for the third to possibly be my favorite entry into the franchise.

Extremely funny and silly which some how turned out to be the right take on an apocalyptic film. The writing is terrible when ever it takes itself serious but in between that it's a film that just goes.

When I saw who The Grandmaster's right hand was and then heard the Kiwi accent of rock guy, I had a sneaking suspicion about who either the writer or the director was. Looking the film up on IMDB I was right, this is the same director who did Hunt for the Wilder People, Taiki Waititi. It shines through out the film. Surprising how well that wit and humor translated from a small heart warming film with Sam Neil to a blockbuster Marvel film.

After loving RAGNAROK, I sought out EVERYTHING that Taika Waititi made. It really began my current desire to find stuff involving him or his friends from NZ.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 March 2018 - 07:16 PM

[Aptorian]

... Even Green Lantern? EDIT: Ah, you ninja editted that comment.

I think I might actually watch Green Lantern after this.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 26 March 2018 - 07:19 PM

[QuickTidal]

Alternative Goose, on 26 March 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

... Even Green Lantern?

I mean, he's good in his role in it.

[worry]

Annihilation -- good lord. One part The Thing, one part Miyazaki movie, one part something I've never, ever seen before on screen. I don't wanna say too much. The movie departs from the book significantly, in such a way that whether the book or the movie "is better" is kinda beside the point. It's not the same experience. But I'm really glad we got both.

[Morgoth]

I don't understand how a movie with Japanese dogs is problematic cultural appropriation while the show Vikings is not. Or Thor, for that matter.

[worry]

I haven't seen the movie or read much of the criticism, but the writer for the L.A. Times (Justin Chang) argues that the movie reduces much of its Japanese cast & setting to backdrop, often not even using subtitles for Japanese dialogue, in favor of highlighting the dogs (who are definitely not Japanese), thus making most of the Japanese characters largely "foreigners in their own city" for a largely white, American audience.

I mean, there are still judgements to be made of degree, too. Did Anderson cast Mickey Rooney in yellow face? No. Was he deliberately and cynically looking to cash in on American Japanophilia? Probably not. Did he cast Japanese people to voice Japanese characters? Looks like it. Did he clumsily overlook some cultural appropriation issues in pursuit of making a filmic homage to Japanese filmmakers he admires? Seems likely. I mean there are virulent stereotypes about East Asians and how they treat dogs that are alive and well right now.

And when you add in that Japanese-American creators are largely locked out of such high profile avenues to tell their stories in America to fellow Americans, annoyance seems reasonable. In the face of that, is it really kind or thoughtful to call that over-sensitivity? (Not that you, Morgoth, did -- it's just a common refrain). If someone wants to argue the degree of harm it does, seems worth a listen. I mean even if an individually seemingly benign instance contributes to a larger, more clearly malignant broader phenomenon, it may be worth discussing.

I don't know anything about Vikings, but (Marvel's) Thor seems like a fine case to explore the nebulous concept. On the one hand, it was definitely taken by non-Scandinavians, without Scandinavian input, changed and reinvented at whim, and profited from. On the other hand, are mythological figures fairer game? Does it matter that the 'appropriators' weren't necessarily higher on the social hierarchy than the people & culture from which they took Thor? Did it contribute to stereotypes, harmful or otherwise? Did it cause harm to a people or their culture? To an already oppressed group in particular?

Not all of these are easy Yes's or No's, I'd wager, but I wouldn't reject a good appropriation take on Thor out of hand by any means.

[Slow Ben]

Finally watched Thor: Ragnarok and it was amazing. Easily the best Thor movie and maybe my favorite of the genre. I'll need to give it a rewatch in a couple weeks to see how it stacks up with GotG1 on a rewatch.

This post has been edited by Slow Ben: 26 March 2018 - 10:35 PM

[Morgoth]

worry, on 26 March 2018 - 09:31 PM, said:

I haven't seen the movie or read much of the criticism, but the writer for the L.A. Times (Justin Chang) argues that the movie reduces much of its Japanese cast & setting to backdrop, often not even using subtitles for Japanese dialogue, in favor of highlighting the dogs (who are definitely not Japanese), thus making most of the Japanese characters largely "foreigners in their own city" for a largely white, American audience.

I mean, there are still judgements to be made of degree, too. Did Anderson cast Mickey Rooney in yellow face? No. Was he deliberately and cynically looking to cash in on American Japanophilia? Probably not. Did he cast Japanese people to voice Japanese characters? Looks like it. Did he clumsily overlook some cultural appropriation issues in pursuit of making a filmic homage to Japanese filmmakers he admires? Seems likely. I mean there are virulent stereotypes about East Asians and how they treat dogs that are alive and well right now.

And when you add in that Japanese-American creators are largely locked out of such high profile avenues to tell their stories in America to fellow Americans, annoyance seems reasonable. In the face of that, is it really kind or thoughtful to call that over-sensitivity? (Not that you, Morgoth, did -- it's just a common refrain). If someone wants to argue the degree of harm it does, seems worth a listen. I mean even if an individually seemingly benign instance contributes to a larger, more clearly malignant broader phenomenon, it may be worth discussing.

I don't know anything about Vikings, but (Marvel's) Thor seems like a fine case to explore the nebulous concept. On the one hand, it was definitely taken by non-Scandinavians, without Scandinavian input, changed and reinvented at whim, and profited from. On the other hand, are mythological figures fairer game? Does it matter that the 'appropriators' weren't necessarily higher on the social hierarchy than the people & culture from which they took Thor? Did it contribute to stereotypes, harmful or otherwise? Did it cause harm to a people or their culture? To an already oppressed group in particular?

Not all of these are easy Yes's or No's, I'd wager, but I wouldn't reject a good appropriation take on Thor out of hand by any means.

I see. Thank you for a thoughtful and well reasoned reply, worry. I struggle with the use of 'cultural appropriation' as a term, mainly because I feel it's being diluted to the point of absurdity. In Norway we are careful with the use of Sami culture, mostly because of some rather heinous treatment in the earlier parts of the previous century. A small and previously abused minority is understandably sensitive about the appropriation of their unique culture by the majority, and that is something to be respected and considered. At the same time, I think perhaps we're moving too far in the direction of too much cultural sensitivity. Though I understand that the Irish are annoyed by it, I hardly think St. Patrick's day celebrations around the world are problematic.

For me the objections as presented in this thread seemed a little trivial. But I had not considered, as you pointed out, the position of Asian Americans in American culture. That's an issue that's mostly unknown to me, though I guess I did get some commentary on it in Master of None.

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 26 March 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 26 March 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Finished Thor: Ragnarok.

This might be the best Marvel film they've made. Funny that I hated the first Thor and disliked the second, only for the third to possibly be my favorite entry into the franchise.

Extremely funny and silly which some how turned out to be the right take on an apocalyptic film. The writing is terrible when ever it takes itself serious but in between that it's a film that just goes.

When I saw who The Grandmaster's right hand was and then heard the Kiwi accent of rock guy, I had a sneaking suspicion about who either the writer or the director was. Looking the film up on IMDB I was right, this is the same director who did Hunt for the Wilder People, Taiki Waititi. It shines through out the film. Surprising how well that wit and humor translated from a small heart warming film with Sam Neil to a blockbuster Marvel film.

After loving RAGNAROK, I sought out EVERYTHING that Taika Waititi made. It really began my current desire to find stuff involving him or his friends from NZ.

Yet to see Thor but Hunt for the Wilder People is so insanely good that I think I'll pick up the Blu Ray on the way home today if I can.

And like you QT I love seeing Rhys Darby in just about anything!

[Salt-Man Z]

QuickTidal, on 26 March 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

worry, on 25 March 2018 - 09:15 PM, said:

Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle: Pretty good. Does "video game movie" better than most actual video game movies. Consistent laughs. And on top of the main cast, Rhys Darby and Bobby Cannavale were both pleasant surprises. Tonally it stays pretty light and is maybe a bit too wink-wink compared to Jumanji and Zathura, but not to an experience-ruining degree. Also it's PG-13 and not really a kids/all ages movie like the other two. And for those curious, it is a sequel to the original, just not a direct one, rather than a pure reboot.

I also watched this over the weekend, and would concur with Worry's statement. Fine, enjoyable adventure fare that plays off the "video game" aspects with tongue firmly in cheek.

We just Redboxed this last night, and it was indeed hilarious. Johnson, Black, and Gillan all did fantastic jobs playing teens stuck in their new bodies.



"Martha! Come look at my penis!"

[Aptorian]

I'm watching Justice League. About half way into it.

I am astounded by how off this film feels. DC/Warner Brother's should just give it up - That or scrap what ever plan they have and fire everyone involved in the project. Then start over.

The writing is just so bad. Like, how do you write Batman this poorly? How do you make the Flash this awkward? Aquaman, Wonderwoman and Cyborg seem fine but urgh.

[QuickTidal]

Alternative Goose, on 27 March 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm watching Justice League. About half way into it.

I am astounded by how off this film feels. DC/Warner Brother's should just give it up - That or scrap what ever plan they have and fire everyone involved in the project. Then start over.

The writing is just so bad. Like, how do you write Batman this poorly? How do you make the Flash this awkward? Aquaman, Wonderwoman and Cyborg seem fine but urgh.

It's the Joss additions that really mess it up. It's two directorial visions clashing in real time. I'd love to see what Snyder's cut would have looked like....not because it would be amazing, but because I'm fairly sure it would be a more cohesive version of what his vision was for the film...

The Joss/Snyder mashup is crazy.

Most of the bad dialogue stuff is Joss though. Which is weird. Knowing which things are Joss additions helps find that line.

The moustache-removal for instance, is a Joss Whedon issue...Snyder shot that scene with Superman bearded and in a black funeral suit....and Joss was like "no, we need him to be in the red and blue and clean shaven". Funnily enough I think the scene has enough menace in it with his resurrection that Snyders version would have worked FAR better. So instead we get this weirdly off-kilter scene with Superman LOOKING like a hero, but acting like a zombie who doesn't know why he's brought back yet...

The Flash falls on Wonder Woman's boobs joke? Joss.

Flash should be confident and cocky, not awkward with women and refusing to fight until goaded by Batman. He's the most off-character in the film. I think that's a Snyder problem, but I hear Joss's additions magnified it.

But yeah, in the hindsight of time, JL is a failure more because DC let Snyder shoot it, and then when he had a personal issue, they got cold feet about his vision and gave it to Joss....thinking they could get an AVENGERS out of it....but it was like asking Quentin Tarantino to finish shooting a Spielberg political thriller. It was a mistake. The styles are WAY too different.

[Aptorian]

I remember hearing about that re-shoot/re-editting business. Couldn't tell you what pieces are what but stuff is definitely off.

The film reminds me of all those myriad DC Justice League cartoons on Netflix. There's the semblance of a story there but everything is so flimsy.

The tone is strange. Batman in Bats vs Supes was very dark and grim. In this film he's slightly fat, makes jokes constantly, barely has a plan, shows lack of confidence and he fucking smiles at the end. What the fuck kind of writing is this? No wonder Affleck dropped out of that Batman film.

Don't even get me started on Superman. He's barely a shadow of the figure he presented in Man of Steel.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 27 March 2018 - 06:38 PM

[worry]

Alternative Goose, on 27 March 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

I am astounded by how off this film feels. DC/Warner Brother's should just give it up - That or scrap what ever plan they have and fire everyone involved in the project. Then start over.

I wonder if they were going to do this and then Wonder Woman came along and was actually good & successful, so it screwed up those plans. I mean, Justice League was originally supposed to be two parts, and got turned into one lumpy movie. And if they were going for an MCU phases type of thing, heading straight into the Darkseid story to cap "phase 1" seems kinda rushed. Like just get this stuff over with? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it doesn't seem like they're expecting a very long term franchise.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 27 March 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 27 March 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

I'm watching Justice League. About half way into it.

I am astounded by how off this film feels. DC/Warner Brother's should just give it up - That or scrap what ever plan they have and fire everyone involved in the project. Then start over.

The writing is just so bad. Like, how do you write Batman this poorly? How do you make the Flash this awkward? Aquaman, Wonderwoman and Cyborg seem fine but urgh.

It's the Joss additions that really mess it up. It's two directorial visions clashing in real time. I'd love to see what Snyder's cut would have looked like....not because it would be amazing, but because I'm fairly sure it would be a more cohesive version of what his vision was for the film...

The Joss/Snyder mashup is crazy.

Most of the bad dialogue stuff is Joss though. Which is weird. Knowing which things are Joss additions helps find that line.

The moustache-removal for instance, is a Joss Whedon issue...Snyder shot that scene with Superman bearded and in a black funeral suit....and Joss was like "no, we need him to be in the red and blue and clean shaven". Funnily enough I think the scene has enough menace in it with his resurrection that Snyders version would have worked FAR better. So instead we get this weirdly off-kilter scene with Superman LOOKING like a hero, but acting like a zombie who doesn't know why he's brought back yet...

The Flash falls on Wonder Woman's boobs joke? Joss.

Flash should be confident and cocky, not awkward with women and refusing to fight until goaded by Batman. He's the most off-character in the film. I think that's a Snyder problem, but I hear Joss's additions magnified it.

But yeah, in the hindsight of time, JL is a failure more because DC let Snyder shoot it, and then when he had a personal issue, they got cold feet about his vision and gave it to Joss....thinking they could get an AVENGERS out of it....but it was like asking Quentin Tarantino to finish shooting a Spielberg political thriller. It was a mistake. The styles are WAY too different.

The industry scuttlebutt is that Snyder got secretly fired before the "personal issue" of his daughter committing suicide - and that the suits were making Snyder disavow large parts of BvS before he got fired. So Whedon's involvement may have been even larger than redoing a few scenes and finishing the rest.

Given how badly Whedon has come out in recent times - with his wife's expose of his multiple affairs, constant lying, and non-physical abuse of her - I think handing anything to Whedon right now is a horrible idea and it showed onscreen in JL.

I don't know what to do to revive the DCU in a strong way beyond basically giving the reins to someone like Patty Jenkins, hiring some truly top notch writers, and letting them go do their coherent vision without suit meddling. I was hoping Snyder would be able to ride the whole thing out because his vision of superheroes as beings genuinely close to god-like was far more interesting to me than the Marvel "pretty close to human" vision. The DCU of BvS was dour and at times unlikable, but I think that's the tradeoff for making them that powerful and detached from regular humanity.

[worry]

That's an interesting thought -- and it's actually why I mostly like this iteration of Superman, even though I don't necessarily like the movies -- but it is the exact opposite of what they seem to be doing with Aquaman, Cyborg, and the Flash (and maybe Batman too -- since Affleck is doing an older, aging-out Bruce). They are hella "regular". Like Aquaman is especially, even over-the-top, just one of the guys...but with powers!

[amphibian]

I had the thought that Justin Lin would probably do an amazing DCU film. He might be the Space Jam 2 director now though.

I have weird opinions about Superman and most of the super heroes though. I view Superman as a jerk for sitting on the Krypton tech that could cure thousands of illnesses, build strong disaster proof housing and reshape the world to be physically safer, potentially reduce energy dependence on dictatorships/bad regimes, and possibly allow interstellar exploration.

And the guy sits on it all to pretend to be a nothing burger journalist. He's doing something that deserves worse criticism than the common Batman/Bruce Wayne critique.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 28 March 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

I had the thought that Justin Lin would probably do an amazing DCU film. He might be the Space Jam 2 director now though.

I have weird opinions about Superman and most of the super heroes though. I view Superman as a jerk for sitting on the Krypton tech that could cure thousands of illnesses, build strong disaster proof housing and reshape the world to be physically safer, potentially reduce energy dependence on dictatorships/bad regimes, and possibly allow interstellar exploration.

And the guy sits on it all to pretend to be a nothing burger journalist. He's doing something that deserves worse criticism than the common Batman/Bruce Wayne critique.

The DC line of comics would be pretty boring if Supes just rolled out his Supertech, solved all the world's problems, and then kicked back with a Superbeer, no?

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 28 March 2018 - 02:38 PM, said:

amphibian, on 28 March 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

I had the thought that Justin Lin would probably do an amazing DCU film. He might be the Space Jam 2 director now though.

I have weird opinions about Superman and most of the super heroes though. I view Superman as a jerk for sitting on the Krypton tech that could cure thousands of illnesses, build strong disaster proof housing and reshape the world to be physically safer, potentially reduce energy dependence on dictatorships/bad regimes, and possibly allow interstellar exploration.

And the guy sits on it all to pretend to be a nothing burger journalist. He's doing something that deserves worse criticism than the common Batman/Bruce Wayne critique.

The DC line of comics would be pretty boring if Supes just rolled out his Supertech, solved all the world's problems, and then kicked back with a Superbeer, no?

Also, let's not forget that Krypton's Supertech, in large part led to its own downfall, not just socially but structurally/geographically after the wars that spawned from the genetics/med tech.

So perhaps Superman is just being circumspect...he could give out Kryptonian tech, but it could very easily lead to the downfall of earth as well.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 March 2018 - 02:47 PM