[Father of High House Reason]

I was talking with my brother today about The Crippled God.

I had always assumed that he was Father Shadow and that one of his chainings (there were many) shattered Kural Emurlahn. (Silcas Ruin said that the shattering was at Father Shadows hands.) In his final chaining his head was smashed by Kilimandaros and his soul/body was imprisoned in agony.

I'm sure this has been debated or debunked somewhere, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

My brother and I would like to know what others think or have theorised.

For example:

* From The Cripple God's flesh or blood came the Great Ravens which I assumed was related to Father Shadows Elient blood.

* There is also a Tiste Edur prayer that talks about Father Shadow being unseen and unseeing and lost to his children but that they will find him. The Cripple God isn't aware of who he was before.

* Kurual Emurlahn is riven through with Rashan which is vulnerable to otaral makes me think it has some sort of link with jade giants.

* From a plot perspective I had always assumed that Shadowthrone and his buddy in shadow realm and the return of father shadow was central to the plot

Some questions:

* Are there any references to the cripple god having red eyes? (did they come from the fight against the KC or from a previous chaining?)Is the tent that he is in a fragment of shadow?

* Are there references to The Cripple God being in shadows? I seem to recal his face is in shadows.

* What happens to a soletaken god/accendent if their animal/elient part is destroyed ... ANYWAY... I always thought SE likes hiding things in poems.

The following poem for me seems to have the answers:"Ravens! Great Ravens!

Your damning cawls deride

histories sweeping beneath

your blackened wings –

Shatter the day

O flags of night,

rend with shadows

this innocent
light

Ravens! Great Ravens!

Your drumming clouds arrive

swoop'd sudden sheer,

hissing travails

from no place

t' the other –

Shatter the day,

O flags of night,

rend with shadows

this innocent light

Ravens! Great Ravens!

Your beaks clatter open

disgorging the sweat

of straining dismay

the clack of bones

promised this day –

I've seen the sheen

of your eyes the laughter

that rimes the living

your passing but
an illusion –

we stop, we stare

we curse your cold winds

in knowing your flight's path

wheeling you round us

again, oh, for ever again!

Ravens

Collitt (b.978)

GotM, UK Trade, p.462-3


This one less so, but interesting none the less:



Against the flat like thunder

Where the self dwells between the eyes,

Beneath the blow the bone shattered

And the soul was dragged forth

To writhe in the grip

Of unredeemed vengeance . . .

The Last Night of Bloodeye

Author unknown

(compiled by Tiste Andii scholars

of Black Coral)

MT, UK Trade, p.128Anway. Hopefully that's a little more coherent than my other post.


Isn't vengence the name of the Tiste Andii sword used by Andarist and was made by our Andii/Elient buddy Rake? Another name for the sword is grief

Anyway, if this assumption/theory falls through, then my second bet is The Cripple God is a Mule of Darkness.

No seriously, my second idea would be that The Cripple God is Tiam. Since everyone seems to like chaining dragons.

This post has been edited by Father of High House Reason: 15 April 2009 - 12:05 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Scabandari Bllodeye is called FS by the Edur and was indeed killed by Kilmandaros and his soul was imprisoned in a Finnest.
The Crippled God was a God from an nknown realm who was dragged to Wu by a conclave of High Mages who wanted to overthrow Kallor. This went wrong and the CG crushed on Wu going in thousand pieces. When he managed to give himself a corporeal body he was chained to Burn by the other Ascendants.
They are clearly two different people.

[Aptorian]

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

My brother and I would like to know what others think or have theorised.

For example:

* From The Cripple God's flesh or blood came the Great Ravens which I assumed was related to Father Shadows Elient blood.

Why would eleint blood make ravens?

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

* There is also a Tiste Edur prayer that talks about Father Shadow being unseen and unseeing and lost to his children but that they will find him. The Cripple God isn't aware of who he was before.

The CG does know who he was, and is a part of why is so pissed off. More than once he remarks upon him being different once, supposedly a kind and just god.

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

* Kurual Emurlahn is riven through with Rashan which is vulnerable to otaral makes me think it has some sort of link with jade giants.

Where do you have this "KE riven through with Rashan" bit from? It's interesting. We know that in the human accessible warrens Meanas (shadow) and Rashan (Dark) are connected, most likely because the Elder source is fractured, so that could be an explanation as to why Rashan mingles with "KE"...

What does that have to do with Ottataral though? Anything magical is vulnerable to ottataral. And not all things Ottataral is connected with Jadestatues. Heavy unveilings of magic create Ottataral, not Jadestatues.

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

* From a plot perspective I had always assumed that Shadowthrone and his buddy in shadow realm and the return of father shadow was central to the plot

As far as we know it may still be a an essential point. The child of shadow and all that, but this isn't cnnected to the CG. He just wanted the KE throne and the Edur because they were convenient "toys".

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Some questions:

* Are there any references to the cripple god having red eyes? (did they come from the fight against the KC or from a previous chaining?)Is the tent that he is in a fragment of shadow?

I'm assuming you're trying to tigh this in with Scabby, but even if the CG does have red eyes (and not jade like you might suspect) there can be other reasons for this. The smoke he inhales, leaves him racked with coughes, and as such they probably also burn the eyes.

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

* Are there references to The Cripple God being in shadows? I seem to recal his face is in shadows.

That would be the cowl producing that effect. We've never learned what the CG looks like, but you can be sure he isn't pretty.

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

* What happens to a soletaken god/accendent if their animal/elient part is destroyed ...

You mean what happens if an ascendant dies in its animal form or what? Because the two aren't interchangable, they die, they die. Best example of that would be the Sisters from RG or indeed Scabby.

[The Dark Wanderer]

So speaks Apt.

Although do have an associated question, we know Mother Dark is fairly elemental (ie way above other people/things) and I've always assumed that Father Light is as well, so why is the equivalent being/elemental from Shadow (ie Father Shadow/Scabandari Bloodeye) not as well or is this due to how Shadown came into being?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Because Scabandari isn't truly Father Shadow, having killed the true Edur royal line. There probably isn't even a FS because Shadow probably came into being after Md met with FL

[Grief]

Shadow was created from a mixture of Light and Shadow.

Also, why do you assume Scabandari to be "father shadow"

It is mentioned by the dragons that he murdered the royal edur, in BH.

The dragons are a far more reliable source than the edur, because the edur have been misled by scabandari. In fact, they're unreliable about most things, they're juist not very well informed.

Just because he tells them he is, doens't make him Father Shadow.

He has Tiams blood, but that just means he has a bit of power, and got some from Tiam.

From what we know he is more a Champion of Shadow, not "father", more like the Edur version of Rake or Osserc, though not so powerful.

He murdered the royal line, but they're probably not properly dead, considering he couldn't kill Ruin, and one possible candidate for an Edur Royal is Tulas Shorn.

Oh, and Shadow does have an Elemental Force associated with it.

Edgewalker mentions to Cotillion that he is an Elder God, presently he caretakes shadow, but I believe he also mentions that he once held the throne?

[Grief]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 15 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

Because Scabandari isn't truly Father Shadow, having killed the true Edur royal line. There probably isn't even a FS because Shadow probably came into being after Md met with FL

There were other elemental forces even when darkness ruled alone-Source is edgewalker from BH.

Fairly sure that Edgewalker is shadows Elder God, there are rather a few hints at it, and if he's not Elder God of Shadow, what is he Elder God of?

[Aptorian]

The Dark Wanderer, on Apr 15 2009, 08:06 PM, said:

is this due to how Shadown came into being?

I think this is what it hinges upon. Shadow is the bastard of Light and Dark. At least that is the mythological explanation. But most likely its not a solid metaphysical explanation.

Udinass (I love that guy) wondered about the elements. His opinion was that Dark as the first element and primary creator and origin didn't make sense. All the Elements are dependant upon each other and all have their own reasons to exist and are legitimate. You can't make light without a light source, fire, and fire can't exist without a food source, air... and uhm... the element of wood? etc. etc.

Now that I am sitting and writing this, it does occur to me, the other elements are all mostly mutually dependant of each other, but Shadow does sound like an exception. Shadow depends upon light and dark... but, what depends upon shadow? Shadow is truly the bastard of the elements. It touches everything, because everything casts a shadow (at least the physical stuff)...

hmmm... now I forgot where I was going with this

EDIT: Oh, lots of posts in between mine.

Edgewalker is a self proclaimed "Elemental" not an Elder God. What he is an element of, we don't know, and we don't really understand what elements are either.

Since Edge tried to take the throne of shadow, it doesn't make sense that he is an Elemental of Shadow. If he was, by right he should have been accepted as a ruler, if not the very creator.

And yeah, Father Shadow is just a mythical tittle, just like Ruin became the betrayer, even though it was the other way around. They also talk about a "Brother Light" trapped in the moon, but we've never seen him.

[Grief]

RotCG Osserc and Anomandaris go and find the shadow house which has just come into being, so I'd say it did start later than Light and Dark.

And they can exist without each other. What creates Darkness, the absence of Light. So darkness can only be around without Light, so Darkness doesn't depend on thing being there, it depends on them not being there.

Who says light can't exist without fire?

Just because it can't on Burn, doesn't mean elsewhere that holds true...And Udinaas gets on my nerves so I don't tend to believe him.

[Grief]

Aptorian, on Apr 15 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Edgewalker is a self proclaimed "Elemental" not an Elder God. What he is an element of, we don't know, and we don't really understand what elements are either.

Since Edge tried to take the throne of shadow, it doesn't make sense that he is an Elemental of Shadow. If he was, by right he should have been accepted as a ruler, if not the very creator.

And yeah, Father Shadow is just a mythical tittle, just like Ruin became the betrayer, even though it was the other way around. They also talk about a "Brother Light" trapped in the moon, but we've never seen him.

Umm, Edgewalker being Elemental makes him an Elder God, because he tells Cotillion they are one and the same, if memory serves.

And why doesn't it make sense he had to try and take the throne?

Scabandari killed the other Edur and took their place, so I don't see why he couldn't have been deposed. He is after all dead, iirc.

Just saying "I created you" doesn't mean they're gonna be happy and let him rule.

I mean, look at what happened with the andii and mother dark.

Father Light abandoned the Liosan.

I don't see any Elemental Force ruling the jaghut.

Olar Ethil, a possible elemental force, does not "rule" the T'lan Imass.

I don't think there are any examples of an Elder God ruling like that, with the possible exception of Mother Dark now she's back.

[Father of High House Reason]

Thanks, I'm convinced.

Just a note - I assumed Father Shadow is just an old archetype of the holds/wanderings or something else like Mason is an archetype in one of the houses in the Deck of Dragons.

For example Father Shadows three Daughters aren't necessarily his actual daughters, but also archetypes.

[Chris]

At the beginning of chapter 18 of TtH, someone muses about the nature of Dark, Light, and Shadow. I believe the POV is Cotillion's. A later passage without an obvious break in POV is explicitily Cotillion's, but a lot of the chapter openings are Kruppe's descriptions and the language seems "Kruppish" for lack of a better word. Still I think the following are Cotillion's thoughts on the nature of the Hounds of Dark, Light, and Shadow:

Quote

The Deragoth are the dark, and in their savage solidity would claim ownership of the shadows they cast. Lock and Pallid, however, are the light that gave the Deragoth shape, without whom neither the Deragoth nor the Hounds of Shadow would exist. If the hunters and the hunted so will, one day the beasts shall come together, baleful in mutual regard, perhaps even eager to annihilate one another, and then, in a single instant of dumbfounded astonishment, vanish one and all.

Cotillion (definitely this time) contines:

Quote

Salutations to this triparate universe, so mutually insistent. And why not? It doesn't even exist, except in the caged mind that so needs simplification. A mind, mused Cotillion, like mine.

Cotillion believes that the triparate universe of Dark, Light, and Shadow is merely a conceit of minds in need of simplification. The triparate universe only exists to the extent that it is needed to explain creation and the Elements of Dark, Light, and Shadow. The three elements are, they exist, independent of origin. The origin stories are simply that--stories. Asking which came first, and who created whom is like asking what came first the chicken or the egg. Cotillion recognizes this by speculating that a meeting of the Hounds of Dark, Light, and Shadow would result in the all three cancelling each other out and vanishing.

Cotillion has shown himself to be a pretty knowledgeable guy with respect to the order the universe--having travelled the Azath with Shadowthrone--so his musings on the nature of the triparate universe should carry a great deal of persuasive weight.

[Grief]

On the other hand, we have visible evidence in the dream in RotCG.
I mean, it's all very well cotillion musing on things, but the people who were actually there, who actually saw the stuff, are bound to have a different opinion, it's more personal for them.

Yes, the other elements existed at the same time, even when darkness rules alone according to the dragons, but the main three active were Light Shadow and Darkness.

Also, the Deragoth are NOT the hounds of darkness, if memory serves.

[iRFNA]

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 07:02 AM, said:

PARADIGM SHIFT

I love your theories! Please post them all.
I'm not kidding, I really love them.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Grief, on Apr 15 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

On the other hand, we have visible evidence in the dream in RotCG.
I mean, it's all very well cotillion musing on things, but the people who were actually there, who actually saw the stuff, are bound to have a different opinion, it's more personal for them.

Yes, the other elements existed at the same time, even when darkness rules alone according to the dragons, but the main three active were Light Shadow and Darkness.

Also, the Deragoth are NOT the hounds of darkness, if memory serves.

the deragoth are called the hounds of darkness on several occasions, but they have never been linked to KG or any warren the way the hounds of shadow have. but the deragoth had a master when they imprisoned dejim nebrahl. so they worked on the same premise... somehow, probably related to dessimbelackis

i think that this tripartate theory is a good one, its got a lot of crazy implications to the reality of the malaverse

[Traveller]

Aptorian, on Apr 15 2009, 04:57 PM, said:

The CG does know who he was, and is a part of why is so pissed off. More than once he remarks upon him being different once, supposedly a kind and just god.

...the smoke he inhales, leaves him racked with coughes, and as such they probably also burn the eyes.

We've never learned what the CG looks like, but you can be sure he isn't pretty.

Going back to the CG - I like the idea that his so far 'hidden' visage may lead to some sort of reveal;
SE likes to hide the true identities of human characters, sometimes for a whole book - I wonder if the CG's origin isn't quite as alien or far from wu as everyone assumes from the scant descriptions.. leading to some'holy crap!' moment later on when we find out his true motives and identity.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 16 April 2009 - 07:05 AM

[Aptorian]

Grallin! Lord of the Moon!

[iRFNA]

Father of High House Reason, on Apr 15 2009, 07:02 AM, said:

No seriously, my second idea would be that The Cripple God is Tiam. Since everyone seems to like chaining dragons.

Since no one addressed this... Why do you think the CG is a dragon? He's pretty small for a dragon and isn't described as being dragon-like.

Also, it's not nice to delete someone's post with no explanation.

[Aptorian]

Pictures and internet links (to other sites) like the one deleted are frowned upon in the book threads. These are supposed to be serious discussions (with the occasional joke thrown into the mix).

[iRFNA]

Aptorian, on Apr 16 2009, 03:54 AM, said:

Pictures and internet links (to other sites) like the one deleted are frowned upon in the book threads. These are supposed to be serious discussions (with the occasional joke thrown into the mix).

I guess I'm just too used to the (almost) everything goes attitude of the something awful forums... This is the first forum I've ventured to in years.

Aptorian, on Apr 15 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

Udinass (I love that guy) wondered about the elements. His opinion was that Dark as the first element and primary creator and origin didn't make sense. All the Elements are dependant upon each other and all have their own reasons to exist and are legitimate. You can't make light without a light source, fire, and fire can't exist without a food source, air... and uhm... the element of wood? etc. etc.

Grief, on Apr 15 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

And they can exist without each other. What creates Darkness, the absence of Light. So darkness can only be around without Light, so Darkness doesn't depend on thing being there, it depends on them not being there.

Who says light can't exist without fire?

I have to agree with grief here. Udinass isn't necessarily always correct, and he attributes his theories to his imagination. While it may seem that the only source of light is fire to him, it is unlikely to be true. I would say the true darkness isn't defined by the absence of light, but rashan is. True darkness would simply be a void with nothing inside, where even light isn't defined yet.