[Grief]

Ectemnius, on Apr 10 2009, 10:25 PM, said:

Grief, on Apr 9 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Good for him

Hehe... I'm really enjoying myself here. An entire forum dedicated to the series I've been addicted to for so many years now!

Tiam, I would guess, is the elemental force of Dragons. She is to Starvald Demelain what Mother Dark is to Kurald Galain.

When 'Elemental Forces' are mentioned I imagine things like: Chaos, Order, Time, Fire, Water, Earth, etc. Not dragons...

Don't see why dragons can't be one. Or maybe she's Chaos, considering dragons blood is apparently chaotic. However, if it's got a warren I don't see why it can't have an Elemental force.

If anyone is Elder God of Sorcery, i'd say K'rul. Remember, if he dies, so does all sorcery(Sourced from the conversation between Rake and Brood, about what would happen if Burn died. Burns dies, CG gets to K'rul through her warren, K'rul dies, sorcery dies).

When K'rul dies so does magic die?
The Warrens were shaped of his immortal blood. How did Dragons accomplish that? They shaped them that way with sorcery. As the Dragons had different flavours they created different warrens. But Tiam is the mother of all dragons and Dragons are listed as the sources of sorcery... To create Starvald Demelain she would have used sorcery, so it existed before the warrens did, contributing to the likelihood it's an elemental force...
Also there is the ability, like Sormo E'nath, to employ sorcery without the aid of Warrens. When K'rul dies (if at all possible coz he an EG) the warrens die, not sorcery

Hmm, it's possible it said warrens yes. Makes more sense definetely. To create SD she wouldn't necessarily have to used SD, we don't really know what is involved in making warrens. It's possible it wasn't created, it just came into existence with her, in her blood. Same goes for MD and KG.

However, I don't think there is a god of sorcery. Even before he shaped the warrens, there were Elder warrens, and chaos. So, maybe he's a god of Order or something.

As for the whole warren thing: Elder Warrens and Paths were created by Dragons:

Not necessarily. In fact, from what we know the dragons only got involved with K'ruls bargains, so weren't involved in the Elder ones. Though SD is probably in their blood, since it's their warren, I favour the racial idea, that KG is in MD/the Andii, OP the jaghut/whatever the elemental ice force is, etc.

Quote

'I am Ampelas, who shaped the blood in the paths of Emurlahn.'

I took this more to mean that she shaped Emurlahn. Emurlahn was already there and she shaped it into the warrens that come from it, Meanas for example.

As for K'rul being Elder God of Order or maybe Elder God of Blood (although is that elemental?)

In Memories of Ice prologue this is said:

Quote

... he [K'rul] had fed - was feeding - on the blood spilled onto this land...

All Elder Gods take power from blood, as that's how they were originally worshipped. It is possible though.

Also everyone employing the warrens swims his immortal blood. Certainly a lot of references with blood when it comes to K'rul...

Yes, it's possible he's the god of blood. But that would make blood an element, which i'm not so sure of. Everyone using younger warrens does, as his blood as well as the dragons shaped it.

Yes, Rake killed Tiam. This is what caused the rift between him and MD. Somehow he killed her differently to the others times she'd died.
Other people had the blood of Tiam, either through also drinking it, or getting it other ways. For example, being born of someone of Tiams blood seems to work(Rud Elalle, the eleint(children of Tiam, tiams blood)), as does getting intimate with Tiam(The Elder Gods(though possibly not all, some possibly got at same time as Rake). I think Osserc is specifically mentioned as getting draconic this way).

As for the theory, yes it's just a personal theory that I thought of.

I like it though.

Heheh, but as you said yourself: It has to do with accepting his Draconean blood and letting it get into the blood of the Andii

Part of it, but from what we see it's also because he kills Tiam. The 2 events are entwined though, he killed her and drunk her blood, I doubt MD was pleased about either. Or I may be falsely remembering, and it's Andarist who dislikes him accepting the blood, and MD rift is just due to killing Tiam.

It's mentioned earlier in the books(by Andarist I think) that part of Rakes rift with MD was that he accepted his draconic blood, turning his back on the Andii blood in him or something. Or something along those lines. Anyway, Andarist really dislikes how Rake has embraced Draconic blood.

The rift between MD and Rake was due to him killing Tiam, somehow differently.

The only difference we know of(though details are very vague) is that he drunk her blood, and became Soletaken, as did a bunch of others.

Blood=Power.
They get more powerful from absorbing Tiams blood.
Tiam loses power cause her blood is all gone, spread out.
Tiam can't come back, because she hasn't got the power, cause it's in her blood.

There's no actual written evidence this is correct though.

However, would be interesting to see, if enough Soletaken Eleint/Eleint die, their blood sinking through the realms, to wherever it is aspected(and all dragons blood is aspected to SD, so some power returns there) if Tiam is able to return.

Yeah, that would resolve a lot of the discussion and speculation here.
I wanna see Tiam! I wanna, I wanna, I wanna!

Shouldn't we open a new thread with something like: Tiam & Elemental forces. We're gettin' pretty off here...

This is a discussion me and Ectemnius started in another thread(red is his, blue mine)

So, what are peoples thoughts about Tiam?

Is she an Elemental force?

The fact that she cannot die(though Rake seems to have done something to keep her away a long time) suggests so.

Why can't she come back?

I think it's due to her blood being too spread out.

Where did the Elder Warrens come from?

The two forces, powers, in opposition are Chaos and Order.

The oldest warrens we know of are Starvald Demelain, Kurald Galain, and Chaos.

Chaos is Chaotic.
Kurald Galain embodies order.
Starvald Demelain is somewhere in between, chaotic, but not so much as Chaos.

MD comes into being, bringing with her in her blood KG. K'rul mentions in the beginning all was chaos, so order comes out of chaos. KG embodies order, and SD is a mix of the two.

I think the Elder warrens are in the blood of the users.

So, SD is in the blood of Tiam, and the dragons.
KG, the Andii, and MD.

And so on.

As the Jaghut dwindle, Omtose Phellack weakens.

Blood is power.

Elemental forces:

What are they aspected to?

Darkness-Mother Dark, Draconus?(Suzerain of Night)
Light-Father Light
Life-???
Death-???
Shadow-Edgewalker?
Sea-Mael
Ice-The wolves of winter?
Fire-Olar Ethil?

And then there are the unknowns:

K'rul
Tiam
Kilmandaros
Grizzin Farl

What do people think they're aspected to.

[D'rek]

A lot of questions there. I was thinking of how to answer them individually, but that seems difficult, so I'm just going to start writing the history of the multiverse and hopefully the answers will come up somewhere in there. Happy reading!



First things first, Chaos. Imagine that chaos is a pseudo-infinite space of limitless possibility. It may stretch forever but there are no walls, not even necessarily directions. At first, there is naught but chaos, thus it is older than SD, KG, MD, Tiam and the Malaziworld and all.

If Chaos is just random stuff floating around and spontaneously happening, then every now and then some random forces collide enough to create an entity. There are, after all, entities that call Chaos home [see BH]. Anything that is made from Chaos has a certain degree of order, maybe a lot, maybe little. However, most things are, shall we say, unstable and tend to collapse back to Chaos (just random tiny pieces and stuff). Perhaps because they have a lot of order, some creatures can actually resist the dissoluton and maintain a coherent existance (hence the creatures that live their whole lives in Chaos). There are also methods that they can in turn become more powerful.

Elemental Gods, Mother Dark being the first known, are beings that were created in Chaos 'randomly' and eventually became very powreful. So powerful, in fact, that they could shape the Chaos and start making stuff with it. Mother Dark was the first, Tiam and Father Light would have followed shortly thereafter (which of those two came first isn't very important). Eventually, Mother Dark harvested enough of the chaotic material she needed and wove it into Kurald Galain, a seperate world from the rest of Chaos which was inherently Ordered and therefore in opposition to Chaos.

Now, Grief, your conversation has that KG is a manifestation of Order. Well, I would posit that it is a manifestation of Darkness, the nature of the being that is MD and which became more and more her aspect as she became more powerful. However, anything that is an immense, pseudo-mundane construction like KG takes away from Chaos and, while it might be aspected to Darkness, it is still a manifestation of Order. Likewise, Starvald Demelain and Kurald Thyrllan, created by Tiam and Father Light, respectively, have their own aspects, but are also manifestations of Order. Draconus' biggst mistake (and here I'm breaking chronology) is that he thought only Darkness could manifest Order and fight Chaos, when in fact all the worlds do, and singling out Darkness to fight Chaos by itself within Dragnipur left it bereft of the allies against Chaos it would have of all the other worlds.

Right, so we've got Tiam and SD, MD and KG, FL and KT. The orders are not terribly important, though it is said SD was first. Well mundane worlds are fun and all, but they were getting bored with that so they tried something else. They found other creatures in Chaos and helped them to resist the dissolution into Chaos and gain enough power to have strong existance as well, though not as powerful as the Elemental 3 themselves. These are your Elder Gods, K'rul, Nightchill, Draconus, Osserc, Grizzin Farl, Kilmandaros, Mael, perhaps Edgewalker, and many many others that are no longer even known. Some EGs took on the same aspects as their helpers (ex: Osserc and FL, Draconus and MD), while others had their own nature (ex: Mael).

And for a while, it was good. There's no warrens at this point, I might add. Any 'magic' is the personal source of the creature using it and is probably something completely unlike what we are used to seeing in the current storylines.

Then they got bored again, so the 3 Elementals tried something even more ambitious. They created their own races in their own worlds, creatures that were not very powerful, but numerous and not unique. Dragons for SD, the Tiste Andii for KG and the Tiste Liosan for KT. All within their own worlds of Order, and so very much unlike the creatures of Chaos.

So far, so good, but there are always other ways of doing things. Just because those worlds were forcibly created by Elemental Gods does not mean they couldn't occur naturally. And so you have the Malaziworld, the world of Eres, Deragoth and Forkrul Assail, which developed naturally from Chaos as it's own seperate world in some mysterious way, perhaps simply by the momentum of some forces colliding within Chaos. Lacking any aspect or overall god, though, the creatures of the Malaziworld develop their own magicks and aspects (or lack thereof). At the same time, lesser gods could evolve who might call the Malaziworld home, but were not the masters of it (around this time, the Wolves, Burn who creates her race of giants).

Likewise, another world: Omtose Phellack, home of the Jaghut. Again, not shaped by an Elemental God, but this time it was aspected nonetheless to Ice.

Finally you've got Kurlad Emurlahn and the Tiste Edur thrown into the mix by some kinky Andii/Liosan sexual experimentation done by MD and FL. To keep the kids on each side of the marriage from learning about their step-parent, they make KE to hide the hybrid kids.

And for a while, all is good.

The shit hits the fan when races and gods start hopping across to interfere in other worlds. The Elder Gods could jump around into whichever which realm they pleased, and shortly the K'Chain race(s), themselves an offshoot of dragons, followed and jumped from SD to the Malaziworld, whereupon they promptly used their own magic to prevent the EGs from accessing the Malaziworld again. Likewise, the Jaghut spread to the Malaziworld from Omtose Phellack as well.

Still no warrens by the way, whatever magic is used is racial/tribal/ritualistic magic specific to whatever group. People like the Andii are using the same source as they use now (MD/KG), but it is not the refined form we are used to later.

So the Tistes are having loads of hissy fits in their own Kurald realms, civil wars amongst the Andii, and then they all find out about each other and it gets worse. Somewhere along the line (I think in the Andii civil war before they learn of the Liosan, but I don't really remember), Rake decides he needs some dragon power to get the upper hand, so he and his favourite followers (including Korlat and Orfantal) go knock on Tiam's door, stab her and drink her blood, or some such.

Important point: Tiam doesn't stay dead here. She comes back to life just like she usually does from dying. She has to, because others like Silchas Ruin, Olar Ethil and probably Scabby & Tulas Shorn haven't gotten their dragon-ness yet either. However, no one has ever become a dragon soletaken by killing Tiam and then drinking her blood before. Others, like Osserc and Draconus who had already done it, did it in the traditional method of sheboinging Tiam, which also gets you the dragon-veering-ness. Tiam, by the way, dies in every childbirth so this was not her first death either. What MD is so pissed at Rake over, is that he has just started a really bad trend by killing Tiam violently, and as we know from the many other Draconic Soletaken to come, this trend does indeed catch on. (Tiam being dead and not rising again comes from FW's morbid tile readings at a much, much later time and may be more metaphorical than literal.)

So anyway, now Rake is supercharged, the Tiste have their interspecies wars, KE is shattered and it spills out into the Malaziworld. The main homeland of the KCCM on Lether gets taken out by Tiste invaders, the Nah'ruk revolt against the Matrons on Genebackis, something bad happens on Jacuruku and Korel, the few who manage to avoid the Deragoth on 7C are frozen and buried by Jaghut (Ganath's trapped skykeep, the Nah'ruk buried near Ugarat, etc) - poof the KCCM are all but extinct.

The Liosan have their own invasions, piss off a bunch of FA and the Just Wars rage all around, annihilating large numbers of both races. Eventually all the Liosan retreat from their fastnesses across the realms back into Kurald Thyrllan and seal all the entrances into KT.

The Tlann Imass have spread across the world but are realizing that many of the local gods different tribes worship are manipulative Jaghut in hiding. They rise up against their false gods all across the world, and then vow to eliminate all Jaghut. Near the end of a prolonged war against Raest, where they turned on the other Jaghut helping them, and also as 4 Jaghut Tyrants joined forces to eliminate the Tlann Imass in Seven Cities, the Tlann Imass all over the world join together in the Ritual of Tellann and become the immortal T'lan Imass.

Somewhere along the way, K'rul, the Path-Shaper, the guy who has a very strange aspect, decides he wants to shape magic. Perhaps he finds that sorcery is currentl too uncontrolled or unpredictable, his motivations are not truly clear. Regardless of why, he enlists a bunch of dragons to help him out in this. It's unclear whether these dragons were distinct from others before the Shaping or not, but that is not altogether very important. Likewise, it is unclear how K'rul chose the elements that would eventually become their own warrens. A warren of Darkness was perfectly logical, but why Sky and not Time?

Regardless, K'rul and his Shapers wove the various aspects of sorcery through K'rul's own veins, making the Paths, dependable, widely accessible sources of magic. At the same time, they also reformed the existing sources to comply with the new form of the Paths. The Kuralds, Omtose Phellack and any other existing sources were refined, though that didn't necessarily make them accessible to everyone, or change the realms providing the sources. It is unclear if or how Starvald Demelain and Tellann were exactly affected by this.

As always, exceptional things occur. The Shaping of the Paths did not eliminate the unaspected spirit magicks, such as the tribal human magicks. Whatever effect the Shaping might have had in relation to K'Chain magic, or Stormriders or Korkrul Assail (if they have any), is unknown. Additionally, other embodiments like the Holds could continue functioning, though they were eventually replaced everywhere (had to wait for the ice to thaw in Lether first, though).

With the Shaper dragons now very unique and precious, they couldn't be allowed to just fly about interfering, making magic unpredictable, or dying and breaking warrens. So they were forced back into SD (it is largely believed Draconus was hunting them if they didn't), except for Silanah, and the gates of SD were sealed or removed just about everywhere.

And that's pretty much how it remains today. Most folks everywhere use the Paths, or the refined versions of Elder Warrens. More primitive cultures tend to stick to the old ways with their spirit magics, but it is proven that one can practice both. An important variation is the Tiste Edur in Lether (pre-conquest of Lether) who used a Shaped Elder Warren (Kurald Emurlahn) but were themselves so regressed that they used it primitively. This versatility of refinement may be unique to the Elder Warrens and unavailable with the new Paths. Or not.


I think that about wraps it up for now. Don't get me started on the Azath...

[James Hetfield]

But it is important, I think, to learn how the Azath do fit in with all of this.

We know the Azath are living entities that do apparently have a finite life. Unless I misunderstood what happened in Letheras.

Is it possible that they are children of the Elder God of Time? Not all races have to be mobile I suppose.

We do know that they are time aspected but who is the mastermind creator of the Azath? Unless they are Elemental forces and willed themselves into being.

[Grief]

D'rek, on Apr 11 2009, 08:22 PM, said:

A lot of questions there. I was thinking of how to answer them individually, but that seems difficult, so I'm just going to start writing the history of the multiverse and hopefully the answers will come up somewhere in there. Happy reading!



First things first, Chaos. Imagine that chaos is a pseudo-infinite space of limitless possibility. It may stretch forever but there are no walls, not even necessarily directions. At first, there is naught but chaos, thus it is older than SD, KG, MD, Tiam and the Malaziworld and all.

If Chaos is just random stuff floating around and spontaneously happening, then every now and then some random forces collide enough to create an entity. There are, after all, entities that call Chaos home [see BH]. Anything that is made from Chaos has a certain degree of order, maybe a lot, maybe little. However, most things are, shall we say, unstable and tend to collapse back to Chaos (just random tiny pieces and stuff). Perhaps because they have a lot of order, some creatures can actually resist the dissoluton and maintain a coherent existance (hence the creatures that live their whole lives in Chaos). There are also methods that they can in turn become more powerful.

Elemental Gods, Mother Dark being the first known, are beings that were created in Chaos 'randomly' and eventually became very powreful. So powerful, in fact, that they could shape the Chaos and start making stuff with it. Mother Dark was the first, Tiam and Father Light would have followed shortly thereafter (which of those two came first isn't very important). Eventually, Mother Dark harvested enough of the chaotic material she needed and wove it into Kurald Galain, a seperate world from the rest of Chaos which was inherently Ordered and therefore in opposition to Chaos.

Now, Grief, your conversation has that KG is a manifestation of Order. Well, I would posit that it is a manifestation of Darkness, the nature of the being that is MD and which became more and more her aspect as she became more powerful. However, anything that is an immense, pseudo-mundane construction like KG takes away from Chaos and, while it might be aspected to Darkness, it is still a manifestation of Order. Likewise, Starvald Demelain and Kurald Thyrllan, created by Tiam and Father Light, respectively, have their own aspects, but are also manifestations of Order. Draconus' biggst mistake (and here I'm breaking chronology) is that he thought only Darkness could manifest Order and fight Chaos, when in fact all the worlds do, and singling out Darkness to fight Chaos by itself within Dragnipur left it bereft of the allies against Chaos it would have of all the other worlds.

Well, it is obviously a manifestation of Darkness. However, it is ordered darkness. Everything that is constant through chaos(for chaos is always changing, chaotic) is ordered.

Right, so we've got Tiam and SD, MD and KG, FL and KT. The orders are not terribly important, though it is said SD was first. Well mundane worlds are fun and all, but they were getting bored with that so they tried something else. They found other creatures in Chaos and helped them to resist the dissolution into Chaos and gain enough power to have strong existance as well, though not as powerful as the Elemental 3 themselves. These are your Elder Gods, K'rul, Nightchill, Draconus, Osserc, Grizzin Farl, Kilmandaros, Mael, perhaps Edgewalker, and many many others that are no longer even known. Some EGs took on the same aspects as their helpers (ex: Osserc and FL, Draconus and MD), while others had their own nature (ex: Mael).

Fairly sure this isn't right. Edgewalker in BH-Other elemental forces existed even when Darkness ruled alone. Fairly sure that Mother Dark, Tiam or whoever didn't create the Elder Gods.

And for a while, it was good. There's no warrens at this point, I might add. Any 'magic' is the personal source of the creature using it and is probably something completely unlike what we are used to seeing in the current storylines.

Blood is power. Any power comes form the individual, from their blood, there is no structure to draw on. However, that does not mean the warrens did not exist. It simply means they existed in a sealed off manner, only specific people(Such as MD for KG) could use them.

Then they got bored again, so the 3 Elementals tried something even more ambitious. They created their own races in their own worlds, creatures that were not very powerful, but numerous and not unique. Dragons for SD, the Tiste Andii for KG and the Tiste Liosan for KT. All within their own worlds of Order, and so very much unlike the creatures of Chaos.

Gonna have to disagree a bit here to. The creatures of chaos(the permanent ones, who live there) are powerful enough to hold a permanent state. Therefore they are, like MD in the beginning, considerably more ordered than the random chaos floating around being chaotic. Just by merits of living in chaos doesn't make them chaotic themselves, so they are not really that different than the creatures of Order, in some ways..

So far, so good, but there are always other ways of doing things. Just because those worlds were forcibly created by Elemental Gods does not mean they couldn't occur naturally. And so you have the Malaziworld, the world of Eres, Deragoth and Forkrul Assail, which developed naturally from Chaos as it's own seperate world in some mysterious way, perhaps simply by the momentum of some forces colliding within Chaos. Lacking any aspect or overall god, though, the creatures of the Malaziworld develop their own magicks and aspects (or lack thereof). At the same time, lesser gods could evolve who might call the Malaziworld home, but were not the masters of it (around this time, the Wolves, Burn who creates her race of giants).

Likewise, another world: Omtose Phellack, home of the Jaghut. Again, not shaped by an Elemental God, but this time it was aspected nonetheless to Ice.

Well, we don't know it wasn't shaped by an elemental force.

Finally you've got Kurlad Emurlahn and the Tiste Edur thrown into the mix by some kinky Andii/Liosan sexual experimentation done by MD and FL. To keep the kids on each side of the marriage from learning about their step-parent, they make KE to hide the hybrid kids.

And for a while, all is good.

The shit hits the fan when races and gods start hopping across to interfere in other worlds. The Elder Gods could jump around into whichever which realm they pleased, and shortly the K'Chain race(s), themselves an offshoot of dragons, followed and jumped from SD to the Malaziworld, whereupon they promptly used their own magic to prevent the EGs from accessing the Malaziworld again. Likewise, the Jaghut spread to the Malaziworld from Omtose Phellack as well.

Still no warrens by the way, whatever magic is used is racial/tribal/ritualistic magic specific to whatever group. People like the Andii are using the same source as they use now (MD/KG), but it is not the refined form we are used to later.

So the Tistes are having loads of hissy fits in their own Kurald realms, civil wars amongst the Andii, and then they all find out about each other and it gets worse. Somewhere along the line (I think in the Andii civil war before they learn of the Liosan, but I don't really remember), Rake decides he needs some dragon power to get the upper hand, so he and his favourite followers (including Korlat and Orfantal) go knock on Tiam's door, stab her and drink her blood, or some such.

Important point: Tiam doesn't stay dead here. She comes back to life just like she usually does from dying. She has to, because others like Silchas Ruin, Olar Ethil and probably Scabby & Tulas Shorn haven't gotten their dragon-ness yet either. However, no one has ever become a dragon soletaken by killing Tiam and then drinking her blood before. Others, like Osserc and Draconus who had already done it, did it in the traditional method of sheboinging Tiam, which also gets you the dragon-veering-ness. Tiam, by the way, dies in every childbirth so this was not her first death either. What MD is so pissed at Rake over, is that he has just started a really bad trend by killing Tiam violently, and as we know from the many other Draconic Soletaken to come, this trend does indeed catch on. (Tiam being dead and not rising again comes from FW's morbid tile readings at a much, much later time and may be more metaphorical than literal.)

So anyway, now Rake is supercharged, the Tiste have their interspecies wars, KE is shattered and it spills out into the Malaziworld. The main homeland of the KCCM on Lether gets taken out by Tiste invaders, the Nah'ruk revolt against the Matrons on Genebackis, something bad happens on Jacuruku and Korel, the few who manage to avoid the Deragoth on 7C are frozen and buried by Jaghut (Ganath's trapped skykeep, the Nah'ruk buried near Ugarat, etc) - poof the KCCM are all but extinct.

The Liosan have their own invasions, piss off a bunch of FA and the Just Wars rage all around, annihilating large numbers of both races. Eventually all the Liosan retreat from their fastnesses across the realms back into Kurald Thyrllan and seal all the entrances into KT.

The Tlann Imass have spread across the world but are realizing that many of the local gods different tribes worship are manipulative Jaghut in hiding. They rise up against their false gods all across the world, and then vow to eliminate all Jaghut. Near the end of a prolonged war against Raest, where they turned on the other Jaghut helping them, and also as 4 Jaghut Tyrants joined forces to eliminate the Tlann Imass in Seven Cities, the Tlann Imass all over the world join together in the Ritual of Tellann and become the immortal T'lan Imass.

Somewhere along the way, K'rul, the Path-Shaper, the guy who has a very strange aspect, decides he wants to shape magic. Perhaps he finds that sorcery is currentl too uncontrolled or unpredictable, his motivations are not truly clear. Regardless of why, he enlists a bunch of dragons to help him out in this. It's unclear whether these dragons were distinct from others before the Shaping or not, but that is not altogether very important. Likewise, it is unclear how K'rul chose the elements that would eventually become their own warrens. A warren of Darkness was perfectly logical, but why Sky and not Time?

Well, i'd guess he got inspiration from somewhere, the warrens mirroring aspects of Elemental forces or something. Also, it's possible there is a time warren, we just haven't come across people using it. As to his motivations, perhaps the memory in MoI could help? The one where he becomes concious in chaos(more evidence not created by MD btw) and does the whole warrens thing to impose order. I mean, it's not a very ordered system if usage of warrens depends on the users blood, K'ruls system is more ordered, and thus less chaotic, which Order is opposed to anyhow.

Regardless, K'rul and his Shapers wove the various aspects of sorcery through K'rul's own veins, making the Paths, dependable, widely accessible sources of magic. At the same time, they also reformed the existing sources to comply with the new form of the Paths. The Kuralds, Omtose Phellack and any other existing sources were refined, though that didn't necessarily make them accessible to everyone, or change the realms providing the sources. It is unclear if or how Starvald Demelain and Tellann were exactly affected by this.

Well, the sources, the warrens were not changed. I think it's probably to do with having it in the system. Other warrens come from SD/KG etc, so if they weren't in the blood system, it would perhaps screw with having other warrens in it? Just speculating though.

As always, exceptional things occur. The Shaping of the Paths did not eliminate the unaspected spirit magicks, such as the tribal human magicks. Whatever effect the Shaping might have had in relation to K'Chain magic, or Stormriders or Korkrul Assail (if they have any), is unknown. Additionally, other embodiments like the Holds could continue functioning, though they were eventually replaced everywhere (had to wait for the ice to thaw in Lether first, though).

With the Shaper dragons now very unique and precious, they couldn't be allowed to just fly about interfering, making magic unpredictable, or dying and breaking warrens. So they were forced back into SD (it is largely believed Draconus was hunting them if they didn't), except for Silanah, and the gates of SD were sealed or removed just about everywhere.

And that's pretty much how it remains today. Most folks everywhere use the Paths, or the refined versions of Elder Warrens. More primitive cultures tend to stick to the old ways with their spirit magics, but it is proven that one can practice both. An important variation is the Tiste Edur in Lether (pre-conquest of Lether) who used a Shaped Elder Warren (Kurald Emurlahn) but were themselves so regressed that they used it primitively. This versatility of refinement may be unique to the Elder Warrens and unavailable with the new Paths. Or not.


I think that about wraps it up for now. Don't get me started on the Azath...

[Sinisdar Toste]

like the summary D'rek, but the jaghut were never native to omtose phellack, they were as much of malaziland as the imass. OP was stolen from the wolves of winter; winter, which the jaghut never truly understood, the cooling of the planet due to a tilting away of the sun, they simply appropriated the power of the cold and ice

[Grief]

Also, any comments on the aspects?

K'rul mentions to Raest his aspect was Obelisk, the position Burn now holds.

Doesn't the Obelisk card have something to do with Time?

I reckon the Wolves of Winter could be elemental ice forces, possibly.

Theory is kinda thwarted by the fact they were on Malaziworld pre Elder Gods I believe, and the KCCM were meant to have kept all EGs away.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well with the wolves of winter we get into what i call the "beast gods" d'rek is included in this, as a mistress of decay has been around for as long as humans can remember. and re: the MoI prologue, the elder gods and even their home warrens are young compared to togg and fanderay. i propose that the malaziworld was actual around at the same time as the created worlds like SD and KG, but had developed through natural processes, not the will of a supreme being.

[Grief]

Yeah, the problem being the source of the information isn't reliable.

Togg thinks they're younger, but since he's on malaz-world, he's likely only measuring from when them and their warrens appeared, which would be significantly later than they actually came into being.

The other thing is, the KCCM are said to have stopped the EGs coming to the malaz-world.

So either:

1. The EGs had been there previously, left, and were stopped later by the KCCM.
2. The KCCM existed before the Elder Gods, and stopped them coming to the world.
3. The world came into being at some point where the EGs were too busy to investigate, and the KCCM had time to flourish to the point they could keep them away.
4. The EGs didn't get around to investigating for ages, which seems odd.

Thing is, KCCM are children of dragons, which are children of Tiam. Thus ruling out 2.
One seems unlikely. I got the impression they stopped the EGs coming by hiding the world, since I doubt the KCCM, even at their peak could out power them in raw power. The matrons have the whole races power, but the EGs are unkillable, elemental forces. And th elements existed at that time. So I think what they did is kept the world hidden, away from the conciousness of the EGs. Like in Letheras, where they keep the old magic system. They have the old system, they have the elements, like they were without conciousness, without the Elder Gods.

It's possible i'm wrong and they just had the raw power, but doesn't seem to make sense, to me anyway. Unless I suppose they were massively numerous.

I also doubt 4, just because it seems careless.

So, i favour 3, which would mean that Burn came into existance some time the EGs were too busy to do anything, perhaps in the wars then?

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on Apr 11 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

like the summary D'rek, but the jaghut were never native to omtose phellack, they were as much of malaziland as the imass. OP was stolen from the wolves of winter; winter, which the jaghut never truly understood, the cooling of the planet due to a tilting away of the sun, they simply appropriated the power of the cold and ice

Whether they began in OP or Malaziworld is debatable, but doesn't really matter. They were living in both early on anyways. The War on Death has me thinking they were much more numerous in OP, as when following the KCCM's beginnings would there have been millions of Jaghut on the Malaziworld? All accounts are that they were few and lonesome.

As for the whole "Stealing winter from the wolves" bit, it's an off-hand metaphor said once by some character who has no reason to know this stuff. Plus, it's saying that before the Jaghut came along Togg was already an avatar of winter. Well hurray, but the Jaghut are more about Ice than they are about Winter anyways. Just like the Deragoth, MD, Draconus and Nightchill are all Darkness-related, so too the Jaghut and Wolves can have relations to winter and ice. You'll need to provide that quote if you want to try and convince me of anything otherwise.

Grief, on Apr 11 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

Yeah, the problem being the source of the information isn't reliable.

Togg thinks they're younger, but since he's on malaz-world, he's likely only measuring from when them and their warrens appeared, which would be significantly later than they actually came into being.

Indeed, the quote reads: "The beast elected to follow none of them. They were young entities as far as he and his mate were concerned [...]"

Grief, on Apr 11 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

The other thing is, the KCCM are said to have stopped the EGs coming to the malaz-world.

So either:

1. The EGs had been there previously, left, and were stopped later by the KCCM.
2. The KCCM existed before the Elder Gods, and stopped them coming to the world.
3. The world came into being at some point where the EGs were too busy to investigate, and the KCCM had time to flourish to the point they could keep them away.
4. The EGs didn't get around to investigating for ages, which seems odd.

Thing is, KCCM are children of dragons, which are children of Tiam. Thus ruling out 2.
One seems unlikely. I got the impression they stopped the EGs coming by hiding the world, since I doubt the KCCM, even at their peak could out power them in raw power. The matrons have the whole races power, but the EGs are unkillable, elemental forces. And th elements existed at that time. So I think what they did is kept the world hidden, away from the conciousness of the EGs. Like in Letheras, where they keep the old magic system. They have the old system, they have the elements, like they were without conciousness, without the Elder Gods.

It's possible i'm wrong and they just had the raw power, but doesn't seem to make sense, to me anyway. Unless I suppose they were massively numerous.

I also doubt 4, just because it seems careless.

So, i favour 3, which would mean that Burn came into existance some time the EGs were too busy to do anything, perhaps in the wars then?

Well, being the offshoot of dragons, there's no reason the KCCM couldn't have begun developing in SD, and hence developed enough power as a race for their EG-suppressing/camouflaging ritual/thing. Tired of EG and dragon interference in SD, they, as a race, hopped to the Malaziworld and threw up their cloaking field right away so they could have the world to themselves...

[dawnkiller]

I'm going to wander like hell here, as per usual.

First, quoting Feather Witch's creepy tile-cast regarding Tiam and the Eleint, because I had it bookmarked and I apparently have a quote-addiction.

Quote

"The Hold of the Dragon. Eleint Tiam purake setoram n'brael buras ("Children of the mother Tiam lost in all that they surrendered") . . . The Eleint would destroy all in their paths to achieve vengeance. As we all shall see in the long night to come. The Queen lies dead and may never again rise. The Consort writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release. The Liege is lost, dragging chains in a world where to walk is to endure, where to halt is to be devoured. The Knight strides his own doomed path, soon to cross blades with his own vengeance. Gate rages with wild fire. Wyval -- Locqui Wyval waits. The Lady and the Sister dance round each other, each on her own side of the world. Blood-drinker waits as well, waits to be found. Path-Shaper knows fever in his blood and staggers on the edge of the precipice." --Midnight Tides, p.207-208

Okay, so in the Hold of Dragons we have, confirmed, Lady (Envy), Sister (spite), Liege (Draconus). I think the Knight is Silchas Ruin in this context, as, while I believe Rake holds some kind of position in the Hold, vengeance isn't really his game. Path-Shaper seems to imply K'rul at this point, as MT took place . . . okay, I know the timeline is a bit buggered but I believe it was before the CG's infection of the warrens was mitigated. As mentioned in the other thread, KG and SD are apparently "twin chambers" in K'rul's heart, though not sure where that's stated. So if Path-Shaper is indeed K'rul, he does hold a sort of position within the Hold of Dragons.

As for the Consort, this has probably come up before, but what the hell, I'll pull out the fun points of three pages for posterity:

Quote

Wood. An X-shaped cross, tilting over them, as tall as a four-storey building. The glint of enormous, pitted spikes.
And nailed to the cruciform--
--a dragon.
Wings spread, pinned wide. Hind limbs impaled. Chains wrapped about its neck, holding its massive wedge-shaped head up, as if staring skyward--
--to a sea of stars marked here and there with swirls of glowing mist.
. . . .
". . . It's enclosed in a sphere. A pocket warren, a realm unto itself--"
"Or the enteranceway," she suggested. "Sealing--"
"A gate. . . ."
. . .
"This dragon is aspected."
"I thought they all were." . . .
"Otataral. Her aspect is otataral . . ."
. . .
"It's still alive, you know."
"Who could have done this?"
"Whoever it was, we have a lot for which to thank him, or her . . . or them. This thing devours magic. Consumes warrens."
"All the old legends of dragons begin with the statement that they are the essence of sorcery. How, then, could this thing even exist?"
"Nature always seeks a balance. Forces strive for symmetry. This dragon answers every other dragon that ever existed, or ever will." --HoC p.564-566

Pearl called the dragon a she, but considering "consort" can also mean "reigning partner" this is not necessarily a problem. (Then again, the Consort is called a "he" in the prophecy, so either Pearl was in error or, you know, I'm totally bullshitting here.)

I like the symmetry, though. Tiam is of SD, like K'rul is of the warrens, then it would make sense her equal is a null to all magic. That might also present an inherent problem to the crucifying -- if the Otataral dragon is indeed Tiam's counterpart, could putting it out of action cripple Tiam?

Shit I can't account for but might as well mention since we're on the subject of magic:

Quote

(Sister Spite) said, "In the name of the Warren Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release." And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sane, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral. --TBH p.11

The Nameless Ones freeing Dejim Nebrahl invoked Mockra (Mind), Telas (Fire), Denul (Healing), D'riss (Earth), Meanas (Shadow), KE (Elder Shadow), Tellann (Elder Fire), Hood's Warren (Death), KG (Elder Dark), Rashan (Darkness), Thyrllan (Elder Light), and finally SD (Eleint). It's weird how much redundancy there is there -- Rashan and KG, Meanas and KE, Tellan and Telas, etc. Ruse, Serc, Omotose Phellack and Tennes are absent. Does this particular combination imply something about the world order, or were they simply the best warrens for the job?

As for why I went for the Spite quote, I'm wondering whether she's otataral aspected, like the dragon, or if that was merely because throwing together all Warrens creates the effect -- like white is a mixture of every color. (I'm thinking the latter, personally.)

KCCM oddity: Firstborn of dragons for sure. But does anyone else find it peculiar that the Eleint were magical powerhouses, while the KCCM themselves, barring their matrons, seemed almost a wholly mechanical race?

And just to round it off, some speculation from RG about Azath, and incidentally K'rul's relationship to the Elder Warrens:

Quote

"These Azath. The House of Shadow itself, here in this realm, correct? Somehow, it has usurped the gate, the original gate. Kurald Emurlahn. The House exists both as a cast shadow and as its true physical manifestion. No distinction can be made between the two. A nexus . . . but that is not unusual for Azath constructs, is it? What is, however, is that the gate to Kurald Emurlahn was vulnerable in the first place, to such an usurpation."
"Necessity, I expect."
"What do you mean?"
"The realm was shattered. Dying."
"The Azath participated in healing the fragments? Intentional? By design, but intellect? Or in the manner that blood dries to create a scab? Is the Azath nothing more than some kind of natural immune system, such as our bodies unleash to fight illness?"
"The breadth of your scholarly knowledge is impressive, Quick Ben."
"Never mind that. The warrens were K'rul's supreme sacrifice -- his own flesh, his own blood. But not the Elder Warrens -- or so we are to believe. Whose veins were opened to create those, Cotillion?" -- RG p.198

I'm inclined to believe that if Elder Warrens required a vein-opening, it would have been Mother Dark and Tiam who were the contributors. The birth of light was certainly depicted as violent in TtH.

The warren overlap is giving me a hell of a headache, though. I mean, Sister of Cold Nights appeared to use Rashan/Darkness in her Nightchill guise. Theoretically that's MD's territory, but Nightchill was elder. Is she associated with MD somehow, or was this simply a case of congruent evolution? As for Edgewalker, I think we've only seen him wandering Shadow so far, though don't quote me on that. If so, though, does this imply he's the Elder God of the human warren of Shadow? It's hard to tell. To hear people talk, post-sundering Shadow has apparently been everybody's bitch. -.-

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 12 April 2009 - 03:11 PM

[D'rek]

Well we are certainly jumping around topics in this thread, but I guess with Grief putting like 20 questions in the start, it was bound to happen!

dawnkiller, on Apr 11 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

I'm going to wander like hell here, as per usual.

First, quoting Feather Witch's creepy tile-cast regarding Tiam and the Eleint, because I had it bookmarked and I apparently have a quote-addiction.

[Dragon Hold Tile-reading quote]

Okay, so in the Hold of Dragons we have, confirmed, Lady (Envy), Sister (spite), Liege (Draconus). I think the Knight is Silchas Ruin in this context, as, while I believe Rake holds some kind of position in the Hold, vengeance isn't really his game. Path-Shaper seems to imply K'rul at this point, as MT took place . . . okay, I know the timeline is a bit buggered but I believe it was before the CG's infection of the warrens was mitigated. As mentioned in the other thread, KG and SD are apparently "twin chambers" in K'rul's heart, though not sure where that's stated. So if Path-Shaper is indeed K'rul, he does hold a sort of position within the Hold of Dragons.

Well, I've always taken that who reading with a grain of salt since Udinaas/Seren mention that FW is doing a really, really morbid and weird reading, and then she goes and pluralizes all the Empty Hold roles and revives the Ice Hold and such and such.

That being said, most of your assertions match up with what most people feel is right. Your argument for Silchas being Knight is valid, but considering in TtH Rake gets killed by his own sword, which is named Vengeance, the Knight tile referencing him is totally legit. Silchas Ruin could very well be Blood-Drinker, waiting to be found by Udinaas/Wither/Wyval. Of course it's a bit weird that Silchas Ruin would have a place in the Tiles, created long after he was placed in the Azath, but there'd be no place for Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu, Olar Ethil or Osric...

This reading took place definitely before the CG's infection in Genebackis was mitigated, perhaps before it had even started (though the Pannion Domin had spread to at least Bastion by this point and the Matron had gotten her K'ell hunters out of their tombs already (not that Pannion had necessarily used them yet). Path-Shaper is almost certainly K'rul, he is titled the Path-Shaper or Shaper of Paths or other similar titles at other times in the books. However, depending on your interpretation of the timeline, K'rul would not have been resanctified yet. Of course the Tiles can be predicting the future so it doesn't matter much.

dawnkiller, on Apr 11 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

As for the Consort, this has probably come up before, but what the hell, I'll pull out the fun points of three pages for posterity:

[Otataral Dragon quotes]

Pearl called the dragon a she, but considering "consort" can also mean "reigning partner" this is not necessarily a problem. (Then again, the Consort is called a "he" in the prophecy, so either Pearl was in error or, you know, I'm totally bullshitting here.)

I like the symmetry, though. Tiam is of SD, like K'rul is of the warrens, then it would make sense her equal is a null to all magic. That might also present an inherent problem to the crucifying -- if the Otataral dragon is indeed Tiam's counterpart, could putting it out of action cripple Tiam?

It's possible, but we can't really support or refute this theory until we get more evidence from later books...

dawnkiller, on Apr 11 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

Shit I can't account for but might as well mention since we're on the subject of magic:

Quote

(Sister Spite) said, "In the name of the Warren Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release." And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sane, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral. --TBH p.11

The Nameless Ones freeing Dejim Nebrahl invoked Mockra (Mind), Telas (Fire), Denul (Healing), D'riss (Earth), Meanas (Shadow), KE (Elder Shadow), Tellann (Elder Fire), Hood's Warren (Death), KG (Elder Dark), Rashan (Darkness), Thyrllan (Elder Light), and finally SD (Eleint). It's weird how much redundancy there is there -- Rashan and KG, Meanas and KE, Tellan and Telas, etc. Ruse, Serc, Omotose Phellack and Tennes are absent. Does this particular combination imply something about the world order, or were they simply the best warrens for the job?

As for why I went for the Spite quote, I'm wondering whether she's otataral aspected, like the dragon, or if that was merely because throwing together all Warrens creates the effect -- like white is a mixture of every color. (I'm thinking the latter, personally.)

I think it's the 'combination of lots of strong magics = magic deadening' theory taking effect, just like Beak using all his warrens sucked out the magic of the area where he died.

The combination of warrens used (and conversely those left out) could just be reflecting on what warrens were used to bind Dejim in the first place (and as such the particular selection is just because SE liked characters of those warrens).

dawnkiller, on Apr 11 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

KCCM oddity: Firstborn of dragons for sure. But does anyone else find it peculiar that the Eleint were magical powerhouses, while the KCCM themselves, barring their matrons, seemed almost a wholly mechanical race?

Who says the Eleint were magical powerhouses? Sure, all the giant Soletaken Eleint we see are, but they mostly got their draconicness from Tiam herself. The only others we've even seen are the Shapers of the Blood , and it makes sense they would have some magic efficacy (and of whom we've only seen Silanah actually do anything). Feral dragons might not have any magic at all, likewise Rud Elalle might not either, and Tulas Shorn might only have whatever Edur magic he's got. Doesn't mean they can't still warrant their fiercesome reputation, but they don't necessarily even have magic...

dawnkiller, on Apr 11 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

And just to round it off, some speculation from RG about Azath, and incidentally K'rul's relationship to the Elder Warrens:

[Shadow Azath quote]

I'm inclined to believe that if Elder Warrens required a vein-opening, it would have been Mother Dark and Tiam who were the contributors. The birth of light was certainly depicted as violent in TtH.

The warren overlap is giving me a hell of a headache, though. I mean, Sister of Cold Nights appeared to use Rashan/Darkness in her Nightchill guise. Theoretically that's MD's territory, but Nightchill was elder. Is she associated with MD somehow, or was this simply a case of congruent evolution? As for Edgewalker, I think we've only seen him wandering Shadow so far, though don't quote me on that. If so, though, does this imply he's the Elder God of the human warren of Shadow? It's hard to tell. To hear people talk, post-sundering Shadow has apparently been everybody's bitch. -.-

The Birth of Light was depicted as violent by the Andii, but I wouldn't trust their judgement on it. They seem to think that somehow MD invented FL and in an instant suddenly Kurald Thyrllan was created, entirely populated with millions of Liosan who were just making up that they had ever lived before then.

There's no reason for SoCN to not use Rashan/Darkness. The Deragoth are Darkness-flavoured, but they're not connected to MD. Maybe there's a connection between SoCN and MD, maybe not, it doesn't confirm or refute anything, anyway.

Edgewalker could be anything, he may have already been very Shadow-aspected, or not at all until he became ensnared working for Shadow. If he is an Elder God of Shadow, though, he probably does not compare to MD or FL, more like he compares to Draconus or Osric.

And that about covers it for now I think.

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on Apr 12 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

That being said, most of your assertions match up with what most people feel is right. Your argument for Silchas being Knight is valid, but considering in TtH Rake gets killed by his own sword, which is named Vengeance, the Knight tile referencing him is totally legit. Silchas Ruin could very well be Blood-Drinker, waiting to be found by Udinaas/Wither/Wyval. Of course it's a bit weird that Silchas Ruin would have a place in the Tiles, created long after he was placed in the Azath, but there'd be no place for Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu, Olar Ethil or Osric...

Yeah, and the problem with definitively nailing down any of the positions is that they're fluid and can be either literal or metaphorical, so anything that was true in MT isn't necessarily true anymore.

The lack of the three sisters I don't find all that strange, considering they seem to be more revered by the Edur than attached to the Eleint -- aside from being Soletaken and begetting Rudd, they do not appear to have a particularly strong association. Osric doesn't seem to be anywhere in there unless he's Blood-Drinker, waiting in the tower to be found, but that's a stretch.

The fact that Blood-Drinker is itself a position in the Hold is kind of interesting -- it seems as if, far from being "unnatural", partaking of Tiam's blood is part of the world order. Pureblood snobs may feel differently, but the Dragon Hold itself seems to be all right with it.

(Re: Rake: *groan* I forgot that's what the sword was called. Dear god, that's an Abyss-worthy pun.)

Quote

Who says the Eleint were magical powerhouses? Sure, all the giant Soletaken Eleint we see are, but they mostly got their draconicness from Tiam herself. The only others we've even seen are the Shapers of the Blood , and it makes sense they would have some magic efficacy (and of whom we've only seen Silanah actually do anything). Feral dragons might not have any magic at all, likewise Rud Elalle might not either, and Tulas Shorn might only have whatever Edur magic he's got. Doesn't mean they can't still warrant their fiercesome reputation, but they don't necessarily even have magic...

I took the fact they're all aspected to mean they're somewhat elemental -- perhaps not working magic in the traditional sense, but instead being of magic. The fact their blood can slide through realms and warrens until it settles on its aspect, as said early in RG, seems to support this. The KCCM seem to be pretty much "what you see is what you get" in a reptilian way -- Matrons with magic, everyone else with mechanical or martial knowhow.

Quote

The Birth of Light was depicted as violent by the Andii, but I wouldn't trust their judgement on it. They seem to think that somehow MD invented FL and in an instant suddenly Kurald Thyrllan was created, entirely populated with millions of Liosan who were just making up that they had ever lived before then.

Agreed, Andii history is as suspect as Edur history. Though it's still hard to tell -- could be MD created Light and then let it sit a while before doing the deed. I never got the sense that the Liosan were in any way the get of anything but Light; when they meet Trull they remark that he has some of their blood, so they'll thoughtfully allow him to be their slave. So, just like MD apparently generated the Andii without a father, FL generated the Liosan without a mother. (...ow.)

Quote

There's no reason for SoCN to not use Rashan/Darkness. The Deragoth are Darkness-flavoured, but they're not connected to MD. Maybe there's a connection between SoCN and MD, maybe not, it doesn't confirm or refute anything, anyway.

Yeah, it could be congruent evolution, like I said. Tellan is the Elder/Imass warren of fire, but though it seems to have a bit of overlap with Thyr Thyr seems more attached to the Liosan warren. Makes sense I suppose -- the Tiste are all immigrants, so they've brought foreign warrens with them, and thanks to crossbreeding and cultural exchange their warrens have mated with local warrens to make little mutant baby warrens.

Quote

Edgewalker could be anything, he may have already been very Shadow-aspected, or not at all until he became ensnared working for Shadow. If he is an Elder God of Shadow, though, he probably does not compare to MD or FL, more like he compares to Draconus or Osric.

Or, as his name implies, he has influence over liminal warrens/powers, like Shadow. Speculation, though, since I can't recall him ever being seen in another context.

What strikes me as odd about Edgewalker is that he looks like a T'lan Imass, but always seems confused when people ask him. My understanding is that the Imass look as they do now because the Tellann warren was bound to their flesh, empowering them far beyond the point of death. I wonder if Edgewalker looks undead because he's also walking around powered by his own personal warren.

(Not that we have a lot of info on that guy, but I have to love any char whose appearances are largely the Ascendant equivalent of "Get off my lawn, you damn kids!")

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on Apr 12 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

D'rek, on Apr 12 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

That being said, most of your assertions match up with what most people feel is right. Your argument for Silchas being Knight is valid, but considering in TtH Rake gets killed by his own sword, which is named Vengeance, the Knight tile referencing him is totally legit. Silchas Ruin could very well be Blood-Drinker, waiting to be found by Udinaas/Wither/Wyval. Of course it's a bit weird that Silchas Ruin would have a place in the Tiles, created long after he was placed in the Azath, but there'd be no place for Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu, Olar Ethil or Osric...

Yeah, and the problem with definitively nailing down any of the positions is that they're fluid and can be either literal or metaphorical, so anything that was true in MT isn't necessarily true anymore.

The lack of the three sisters I don't find all that strange, considering they seem to be more revered by the Edur than attached to the Eleint -- aside from being Soletaken and begetting Rudd, they do not appear to have a particularly strong association. Osric doesn't seem to be anywhere in there unless he's Blood-Drinker, waiting in the tower to be found, but that's a stretch.

Well yeah, the sisters aren't really noted much by the Letheri, but they're at least active on the same continent, whereas it doesn't seem like Spite, Envy or Rake have been to the continent since the fall of the HFE. And if Silchas in the Azath would get a tile, why wouldn't Sheltatha who's clutching his heels? it's just strangely selective. Whatever, it's just a little pet peeve of mine.

dawnkiller, on Apr 12 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

Who says the Eleint were magical powerhouses? Sure, all the giant Soletaken Eleint we see are, but they mostly got their draconicness from Tiam herself. The only others we've even seen are the Shapers of the Blood , and it makes sense they would have some magic efficacy (and of whom we've only seen Silanah actually do anything). Feral dragons might not have any magic at all, likewise Rud Elalle might not either, and Tulas Shorn might only have whatever Edur magic he's got. Doesn't mean they can't still warrant their fiercesome reputation, but they don't necessarily even have magic...

I took the fact they're all aspected to mean they're somewhat elemental -- perhaps not working magic in the traditional sense, but instead being of magic. The fact their blood can slide through realms and warrens until it settles on its aspect, as said early in RG, seems to support this. The KCCM seem to be pretty much "what you see is what you get" in a reptilian way -- Matrons with magic, everyone else with mechanical or martial knowhow.

Well yeah, but that blood passing through warrens thing might only apply to the Shapers of the Blood. It's never been referenced to regular dragons because regular dragons don't seem to do anything in the series except fly through azaths (DG)...

As for the KCCM, Kallor seems to think they all had some magic and that, in the later Matron-dominated K'Chain culture, each K'Chain "gave up" its magic, allowing the entirety of each colony's magic to be channeled/controlled/whatever by the Matron herself. If anything, it is not so much that they didn't have magic, but that they used both magic and machinery so effectively that is strange, when you would think they would favour one or the other. I guess they're just an entire race of Samar Devs...

dawnkiller, on Apr 12 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

The Birth of Light was depicted as violent by the Andii, but I wouldn't trust their judgement on it. They seem to think that somehow MD invented FL and in an instant suddenly Kurald Thyrllan was created, entirely populated with millions of Liosan who were just making up that they had ever lived before then.

Agreed, Andii history is as suspect as Edur history. Though it's still hard to tell -- could be MD created Light and then let it sit a while before doing the deed. I never got the sense that the Liosan were in any way the get of anything but Light; when they meet Trull they remark that he has some of their blood, so they'll thoughtfully allow him to be their slave. So, just like MD apparently generated the Andii without a father, FL generated the Liosan without a mother. (...ow.)

Ow indeed.

dawnkiller, on Apr 12 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

There's no reason for SoCN to not use Rashan/Darkness. The Deragoth are Darkness-flavoured, but they're not connected to MD. Maybe there's a connection between SoCN and MD, maybe not, it doesn't confirm or refute anything, anyway.

Yeah, it could be congruent evolution, like I said. Tellan is the Elder/Imass warren of fire, but though it seems to have a bit of overlap with Thyr Thyr seems more attached to the Liosan warren. Makes sense I suppose -- the Tiste are all immigrants, so they've brought foreign warrens with them, and thanks to crossbreeding and cultural exchange their warrens have mated with local warrens to make little mutant baby warrens.

A lovely mental picture - deformed baby warrens sucking at their mother-warren's magic nipples...

Of course, Tellann remains very much a mystery, since it has no relation to anything but the T'lan Imass, and yet they were big-time spirit-magic practitioners and had the beast-realm-gods, so how on earth they ended up making a warren is just... weird...

dawnkiller, on Apr 12 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Quote

Edgewalker could be anything, he may have already been very Shadow-aspected, or not at all until he became ensnared working for Shadow. If he is an Elder God of Shadow, though, he probably does not compare to MD or FL, more like he compares to Draconus or Osric.

Or, as his name implies, he has influence over liminal warrens/powers, like Shadow. Speculation, though, since I can't recall him ever being seen in another context.

What strikes me as odd about Edgewalker is that he looks like a T'lan Imass, but always seems confused when people ask him. My understanding is that the Imass look as they do now because the Tellann warren was bound to their flesh, empowering them far beyond the point of death. I wonder if Edgewalker looks undead because he's also walking around powered by his own personal warren.

(Not that we have a lot of info on that guy, but I have to love any char whose appearances are largely the Ascendant equivalent of "Get off my lawn, you damn kids!")

Well, I figure Edgewalker is not his original name (omfg Grizzin Farl = Edgewalker), but one that he's been using since his ensnared role by Shadow is to patrol the borders of the Shadow realm(s) and stab annoying usurpers like Oleg. RotCG has a possible equivalent role in the Light warren, too, so it might actually be something several warrens end up employing someone to do, especially if they have thrones or some aspect of dominance.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 12 April 2009 - 08:19 PM

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on Apr 12 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

Well yeah, the sisters aren't really noted much by the Letheri, but they're at least active on the same continent, whereas it doesn't seem like Spite, Envy or Rake have been to the continent since the fall of the HFE. And if Silchas in the Azath would get a tile, why wouldn't Sheltatha who's clutching his heels? it's just strangely selective. Whatever, it's just a little pet peeve of mine.

Yeah, it seems kind of random in some cases. Then again, maybe the Holds/Houses play favorites. (Seriously, would you have liked to be a sibling of Anomander I Am Revered By All Rake? No wonder Scabandari and Silchas Ruin were a little stab-happy.)

Quote

Well yeah, but that blood passing through warrens thing might only apply to the Shapers of the Blood. It's never been referenced to regular dragons because regular dragons don't seem to do anything in the series except fly through azaths (DG)...

I don't know, one of the HoC quotes I pulled earlier had the observation "All the old legends of dragons begin with the statement that they are the essence of sorcery." This doesn't make any reference about them casting spells, and nor does it say if it's, say, all dragons ever, or just Shapers of the Blood (who may be the only ones anyone who made the legends ever saw), but the dragons = magic thing is so far being reinforced pretty consistently.

(Of course, it's Erikson, so we should get hit with some details that don't compute any day now.)

Quote

As for the KCCM, Kallor seems to think they all had some magic and that, in the later Matron-dominated K'Chain culture, each K'Chain "gave up" its magic, allowing the entirety of each colony's magic to be channeled/controlled/whatever by the Matron herself. If anything, it is not so much that they didn't have magic, but that they used both magic and machinery so effectively that is strange, when you would think they would favour one or the other. I guess they're just an entire race of Samar Devs...

It's true, I suppose they could have evolved to the point of extreme specialization -- we know they have soldiers, drones and queens. I think it was noted the Short Tails in particular were good with mechanisms.

Quote

A lovely mental picture - deformed baby warrens sucking at their mother-warren's magic nipples...

Thanks, mental images of Toc's unwilling cuddle-fest with the Matron from MoI are now returning. Like 'Nam flashbacks.

Quote

Of course, Tellann remains very much a mystery, since it has no relation to anything but the T'lan Imass, and yet they were big-time spirit-magic practitioners and had the beast-realm-gods, so how on earth they ended up making a warren is just... weird...

I think that Tellann is basically Elder Fire -- and, since fire allows all kinds of technological advantages, it was likely very important to the Imass, especially with the Jaghut and their glaciers running around. Early in MoI Silverfox talks about how difficult it was for the Imass when the Jaghut were doing major OP unveilings -- tribes scattered, climate changes, starvation, entire lands impassable -- not a huge leap to equating fire with life.

If you think about it that way, Tellann was probably one of the first real "human" warrens. It's also a sign of religious progression, I think. Animals and ancestors both have clearly defined lives. To attribute a life to something non-living is perhaps a more sophisticated way of thinking. (Arguably, anyway. I think mythologists like James Frazer generally agree the first step in spirituality is animism. Only later do you branch into anthropomorphic personifications, pantheons and such.)

Quote

Well, I figure Edgewalker is not his original name (omfg Grizzin Farl = Edgewalker), but one that he's been using since his ensnared role by Shadow is to patrol the borders of the Shadow realm(s) and stab annoying usurpers like Oleg. RotCG has a possible equivalent role in the Light warren, too, so it might actually be something several warrens end up employing someone to do, especially if they have thrones or some aspect of dominance.

So like . . . Temp Jobs of the Gods?

[seansword]

D'rek - I really dig your creation of the universe summary.

I'm still a bit unclear on just how Emuhrlan was shattered...

[Aptorian]

Originally we assumed that it had something to do with Scabby killing the royal family and a subsequent convergence of power players happened a lot of dragon blood was shed which further wounded the warren, then dragons, ascendants and unknown entities began tearing the realm apart.

In DOD how ever we learn that Emurhlan may have been a victim of the war between Light and Dark. The clashing between Andii and Liosan caused the sundering.

[Sindriss]

Don't have time to read the wall of text at this moment, but it is said twice in MoI that the wolves of war is older, even far older than the elder gods like krul, draconus and nightchill. Something to think about when you try to make a exsistence theory

[D'rek]

Sindriss, on 21 March 2010 - 07:40 PM, said:

Don't have time to read the wall of text at this moment, but it is said twice in MoI that the wolves of war is older, even far older than the elder gods like krul, draconus and nightchill. Something to think about when you try to make a exsistence theory

As I never tire of pointing out - that was from Togg's perspective. Knowing how many of the EGs are from a multitude of worlds and were kept away from this one by the KCCM makes Togg's complete knowledge of the subject circumspect.

[Aptorian]

The quote goes like this:

MoI Prologue, p 42

Quote

"The three distant figures unveiled warrens, each vanishing into their Elder Realms.
The beast elected to follow none of them. They were young entities as far as he and his mate were concerned, and the warren she might have fled to was, in comparison to those of the Elder Gods, ancient."

I like to think that it implies that Wu existed long before MD and the Elementals came out of Chaos to make order.

[worry]

Just some thoughts, nothing major.
Togg and Fanderay could represent the violence of the food chain/nature, long before human(oids) brought their own kind of violence (war) to the worlds. Perhaps wolves howling at the moon is a kind of beast worship. I have a feeling they ascended before humans evolved, before Imass evolved, and perhaps before the Eres. Their ascendancy in terms of human war is kind of a bastardized metaphor, perhaps, in that it shows a lack of understanding on humanity's part. A kind of ignorant belief that human warfare is inevitable and somehow natural, comparable to predation in an ecosystem. This ties in fairly well with the Eres'al being the last innocent, and the fact that there are so many gods of war for humans. By all rights, with their story, Togg and Fanderay should be gods of Love, but humans insist on worshiping them in the name of war. I don't know how satisfied they are with this situation. As opposed to Fener who was cast out and Treach whose major followers kind of hate him, but both seem fine with the mantle of war. But there is no high house for Love, or for Peace, on this world. I think their absence is conspicuous...and kind of interesting if the Crippled God turns out to be a god of love or fertility or whatever.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 22 March 2010 - 12:05 AM