[taffy13]

I'm just throwing it out there, but icarium has been around for ages, well he has been alive and present for all the major events in history. He also seems to be near any major convergence. Plus i don't think he will die, until someone takes up his mantle. Also, time/histroy repeats itself, and so does Icarium, he always seems to visit the same places and he continually exoeriences the same emotions. one reason why he always visits the same places may be because he is so old and has been nearly everywhere so where ever he visits it will not be for the first time
On top of this Icarium seems so distant and so alien to everyone else. It's like he is something altogether different to any other being or character.
Anyway, discuss

[Aptorian]

I don't really agree with these points.

We don't know how old Icarium is. Since we don't know when the Teblor moved into the Laederon Plateau, the earliest account of his presence we that we have is his destruction of a First Empire city. I doubt that he was around in the Elder Times where the Tiste arrived and the Imass became undead.

Besides the Laederon Plateau and the Last chaining how many major events do you know he's been present at? None, really. You have to remember a lot of things take place outside the scenes and history we know and see.

The reason to why Icarium goes in cirkles is that he is always backtracking his own footsteps. He has lost and keeps losing large chunks of his memory. Seemingly that's why he travels to his machines.

Icarium doesn't seem alien and distant, that's what makes him so tragic. He's very humble and thoughtfull and anyone he comes near seems to like him. Even Taralack Veed can't help to grow to sympathise with Icarium. That's probably the main reason someone like Rake hasn't taken him down yet.

[Cusser]

 Aptorian, on Apr 7 2009, 02:25 PM, said:

That's probably the main reason someone like Rake hasn't taken him down yet.

And just how would Rake manage that? It is likely that Dragnipur will shatter upon the clash with Icariums single edged blade (speaking of a reason for Rake not to challenge Icarium ), this leave us with a full unveiling but it is not Rakes nature to pull upon the force of others when it yields them nothing. So were left with his Soletaken form, and his own sorcerous power, and if Rakes power is somewhat stronger ([spoiler]and yes I believe it is, but still comparable (Endest Silann tales) ) than Silchas Ruin, he would probably not be able to pull on any magic thats considerably harder then Quick Bens (since he knocked Silchas over, and failed at knocking Icarium over) and that wont be sufficient.

(no Blasphemy for Rake lovers intended)

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hmm. While Icarium blade broke Karsa's Ironwood sword I really doubt it could break a sword made by a Elder God that contains the Gate of Darkness itself

[Aptorian]

I can't even respond to the above Icarium fanboy post, that's how frustrated it's made me!

[Cusser]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 7 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Hmm. While Icarium blade broke Karsa's Ironwood sword I really doubt it could break a sword made by a Elder God that contains the Gate of Darkness itself

It destroyed a Tlan Imass flintsword imbued with the "unbreakable" power of Tellan, during the fight at Drift Avalii

And to Aptorian, not really an Icarium fanboy, I would much rather be Cotillion, Oh the things i could do to you (rwwwr)

[dawnkiller]

I actually wondered if Icarium's apparent unstoppability was in some way associated with Chaos. Not intentionally, or in the way of Oponn (just likes to screw with people), but I think it was said that Icarium only became truly unstable after attempting to free Gothos from an Azath -- the sundering damaged his mind. Since Azath are constructs of order and balance, damaging one might have "infected" Icarium with what it unleashed. Kind of like how anyone even coughing on a jade giant seems to end up screwed. Maybe that's why he's never been explicitly pursued (that we know about, anyway) -- a lot of Wu's pantheon seems to exist in a kind of balance, and if Order is entitled to the Azath, Chaos is, perhaps, entitled to its own agent. And besides, like Oponn, Icarium can be both good and bad -- I believe he's even been called Unaligned in an index before. His nature has become duality, in which case it would be pointless for Ascendants to go after him. He's basically considered the local equivalent of an act of god.

Of course, if this Chaos thing is true the Nameless Ones seeming intent on "aiming" Icarium is a hell of a conceit, because that basically means they believe they can control Chaos. Because that'll end well.

His association with time is interesting, though. It reminds me of those hugely intricate Mayan calendars supposedly counting down to the end of the world. I believe it's Mappo who speculates that his fixation with time is an attempt to establish some continuityand order in his life with so much of his memory is gone.

[Skywalker]

For all his vaunted Unstoppability, it is amusing to me just how many times Icarium has been stopped and gotten his reset button pushed.

We've seen it get done thrice in, what is it, about the ten years that the main series has spanned? In DG (Mappo knocked him out preemptively), twice in BH (He knocked himself out when taking on Dejim Nebrahl, and then at the First Throne it took a while, but the Eres'al did it). We also know that he has gone ballistic before and possibly destroyed an Azath, and killed off an entire city somewhere on the Seven Cities continent.

So yeah, I don't get why him "keening" is such a big deal. It isn't like he's a world ending WMD (more of a tactical nuke - harmful and scary, but limited in damage). And there are enough badasses on Wu to match him in destructive power. Kallor scorched a continent, Gothos iced one, Rake and Killy hunted dragons, etc.

Anyway.. OT - Icarium as a metaphor for time works for me. Although I've always viewed him as a metaphor for history - we never learn/ retain the lessons of life, and keep repeating our mistakes in a search for purpose.

[Nandaki]

I agree with Skywalker when he says

Quote

Icarium as a metaphor for time works for me. Although I've always viewed him as a metaphor for history - we never learn/ retain the lessons of life, and keep repeating our mistakes in a search for purpose.

As Fiddler once says, without history there is no growth. And later on it is mentioned by the Imperial Historian that man doesn't pay attention to history and so forth. So I think Icarium is a metaphor for history.

As for Icarium being unstoppable but stoppable. well, I always felt that Icarium or his power always reacted to threats more than anything. Or percieved threats. In Deadhouse Gates after being knocked out by Mappo and being out cold near the end, he got up suddenly (keening at that) when some Diver or Soletaken came close enough to threaten them all. Infact at that point the rest of the company thought they'd all die if icarium didn't wake up. I noticed no one tried waking him up. It happened on it's own accord.

I'd like the think his power has something akin to a 6th sense. Something that automatically pwers up if there is a threat to Icarium. And that his power always matches and then trumps the power of the threat he's facing. All this is specualtion, but Ithink there isn't an upper limit to his power and that is one of the major reasons no one has tried to throw him in a Azath house.

As for his age, he's been around since before the Imass became undead. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Kallors empire destroyed before that? And Icarium's time constructs were already present on that land before it was destroyed. So that leads me to say that Icarium is older than the T'lan Imass.

This post has been edited by Nandaki: 08 April 2009 - 08:51 AM

[Grief]

Imbued with Tellan is one thing, but dragnipur contains the gate of darkness. Weapons can be destroyed by nastier weapons, and nothing is unbreakable. It's just a sword of an Imass, just because they think it's unbreakable, doesn't make it so. The imass sword is imbued with Tellan, probably by some bonecaster or something. Dragnipur has the gate of darkness. Mother dark. It's powered by an Elder god, and another elder god was present in it's making.

Icariums sword, while nasty, isn't as nasty as Dragnipur.

Rake is far more powerful than QB. The QB silchas fight wasn't near even as silchas was taken by surprise, and in dragon form.

Rake has taken down elder gods, without dragnipur.

As for Icariums power having an upper limit, I reckon that it does. Of course it does. No one has infinite power. Not even the elemental forces. Also, if it powers up wherever he is threatened, why is he so oblivious to Mappo sneaking up behind him with a big club?

[Nandaki]

Quote

Icariums sword, while nasty, isn't as nasty as Dragnipur

.

How do you know that? If anything his sword is something that we know even little off, than say his power. Infact what is his source? An internal warren? Unknown warren? So on and so forth. Anyway I think Dust Of Dreams will answer a lot of questions about Icarium. Atleast I am hoping so.

Quote

As for Icariums power having an upper limit, I reckon that it does. Of course it does. No one has infinite power. Not even the elemental forces. Also, if it powers up wherever he is threatened, why is he so oblivious to Mappo sneaking up behind him with a big club?

]

I think it doesn't, since there is nothing in the books that says that no one can have infinite power. Infact the Crippled God seems to be far more powerful than any of the other gods. Elder or otherwise. I am thinking along these lines, because Edgewalker states that elemental beings such as the elder Gods can't be killed. Now, if something cannot be killed then that alone means that there is a power there that cannot be destroyed. No matter the power used against it. That means that this power sustaining the elemental beings must be infinite. Also a lot of other readers here have suggested that Icarium is powered by chaos, or is tainted by it and the power of chaos is almost or close to infinite as far as the characters are concerned.

What I meant when I said that Icariums power powering up whenever a threat arises, I mean a threat that would end his life. Or endanger it. I know how it sounds now But it is a theory I like. So will hold it dear and close until proven otherwise by the author.

[dawnkiller]

 Grief, on Apr 8 2009, 06:16 AM, said:

As for Icariums power having an upper limit, I reckon that it does. Of course it does. No one has infinite power. Not even the elemental forces. Also, if it powers up wherever he is threatened, why is he so oblivious to Mappo sneaking up behind him with a big club?

It could be because Mappo is a servant of the Nameless Ones, which I assume gives him some protection there, and means him no actual harm -- Impending Stun is different than Impending Death.

[Sindriss]

We have no idea about the history of Icariums single edged blade so we cannot know for sure that Dragnipur is nastier. I think Rake hasn't gone after Icarium because of both his tragic fate and also the convergetion it would create and just how much destruction would it wreak?

[Grief]

We know that Rake and Icarium are on at least decent terms. Rake mentions meeting him a few hundred years ago to Baruk, in Gotm. Don't really get a hostile impression from it reading the passage.

Unkillable does not mean infinite power. They are killable, but only temporarily.

This is because they are elemental forces, they draw power from worship.

So, they get killed, they keep getting worship, that gives them power, they can live.

However, at any given moment, this does not mean they have infinite power. It simply means that, as they can continue getting power after death, they can come back to life.

Hairlock was also chaotic, doesn't give you infinite power.

In fact, it is not possible that Icarium can have infinite power.

We know that he has gone on mad rampages before. When he is on a mad rampage, he is at his max power, destroying whatever gets in his way, regardless.

So, if he had infinite power, then he could destroy everything, instantaneously. Since everything isn't destroyed, he therefore cannot have the power to destroy it, considering that he has tried and failed at some point in the past.

We have no idea of the history of Icariums blade true. However, it isn't described with some of the aspects of Dragnipur. For example, the sheer weight of it.

Also, it is powered by an Elder goddess. And has the souls of countless beings within it.

Icarium is stopped from killing the azath, it is hinted that Gothos does this, if I recall correctly.

Icarium is powerful, but not infinite.

As to the Crippled God, why do you think he is more powerful? His nature is poisonous, but that doesn't make him more powerful. He can't be killed properly, but neither can other EGs. In fact, Mael beats him up.

If his sword was that powerful, I reckon it would have been mentioned. It would be more noted. Dragnipur is feared in it's own repsect. Whereas with Icarium, it is the wielder that is really remarkable, not the sword.

As for Impending Death opposed to Impending Stun, it's possible, but I can't really see it. I mean, damage from being bashed on the head is fairly unpredictable, so how would it be judged. His instinct only works on life threatening situations? Without being aware of the situation, how can it judge at all?

Also, if Icarium has infinite power, and is therefore unkillable, every attack is of equal risk to him, so no distinction would be made.

[dawnkiller]

I'm not arguing Iccy is unkillable/invincible, personally -- just one of those guys that can cause vast damage. Since that's like every fourth guy in Wu though that's not so bad. (I stand by the potential Nameless One Endowed immunity of his companions thing, though. I don't recall any mention of any personally dying at his hands, as opposed to the potential of collatoral damage by debris or whatnot, which implies they have some manner of protection -- only that they have a high suicide rate, for obvious reasons.)

Plus, Chaos itself clearly does not give you infinite power -- the check is madness, deformity, death, or all of the above.

I also think the sword is less important than its wielder. I'm sure Dassem Ultor can do shit with a wooden training blade no regular soldier could even conceive of. However, it's interesting to note Icarium is able to invest his arrows with different warrens -- that came up in DG, I think. I can only remember this being demonstrated once before with "expendable" ammo, 'cept it was TtH so I'm not getting into that here. Nonetheless, it's an interesting talent. And no, this is in no way a statement regarding weapons superiority.

(Anyone remember what book mentioned Iccy trying to break out Gothos? I'd like to check, but I've only got MoI with me for the moment.)

[Bauchelain the Evil]

It was said by Gothos himself to Fiddler and co in DG and it was discussed by Phyrliss and that other Jaghut that talked with Karsa in HoC

[dawnkiller]

Thanks, Bauchelain.

[Nandaki]

I am answering in a different colour in your quoted post.

 Grief, on Apr 8 2009, 08:42 PM, said:

We know that Rake and Icarium are on at least decent terms. Rake mentions meeting him a few hundred years ago to Baruk, in Gotm. Don't really get a hostile impression from it reading the passage.
Infact Rake values Icarium's abilty in farseeing. he suggests that Baruk not ignore any gift that Icarium gives. Question: Are Icariums machines able to predict the future in a thematic way? I think that is implied by Rake while advising Baruk.
Unkillable does not mean infinite power. They are killable, but only temporarily.
OK I can agree with this.
This is because they are elemental forces, they draw power from worship.
This I can't. All gods draw strength from worship, not just the elemental ones.
So, they get killed, they keep getting worship, that gives them power, they can live.
No. This isn't mentioned anywhere. Infact that means that gods like Hood, ShadowThrone, Dasem, and Poliel(sp?) are unkillable. But as we know they are and the death is permanent. Only Eldergods are unkillable and for a different reasons than worship.
However, at any given moment, this does not mean they have infinite power. It simply means that, as they can continue getting power after death, they can come back to life.

Hairlock was also chaotic, doesn't give you infinite power.
You'd find that Hairlock was considered immensly powerful by a number of other powerful beings. Anyway I suggested Chaos may be a reason for Icarium's power, not the reason.
In fact, it is not possible that Icarium can have infinite power.

We know that he has gone on mad rampages before. When he is on a mad rampage, he is at his max power, destroying whatever gets in his way, regardless.

So, if he had infinite power, then he could destroy everything, instantaneously. Since everything isn't destroyed, he therefore cannot have the power to destroy it, considering that he has tried and failed at some point in the past.
I am not saying Icarium unleashes infinite power everytime he gets angry. I am saying that he always unleashes enough power to match and then overcome the opposing power. I am saying that his power increases depending on the level threat to him. Had Rake come swinging Dragnipur maybe then you'd have a earth shattering moment. One can speculate that, that is one of the reasons that other uber powers haven't tried to attack Icarium. Infact that is hinted by the fear all characters have when they realize that Icarium has gone to challenge Rhulad. they think the entire continent will be destroyed. and Lether is pretty huge.
We have no idea of the history of Icariums blade true. However, it isn't described with some of the aspects of Dragnipur. For example, the sheer weight of it.
It is a metaphysical weight than a sum of all souls physical weight. I think Apt has explained it well some where.
Also, it is powered by an Elder goddess. And has the souls of countless beings within it.
Dragnipur isn't powered by Mother Dark, the souls and the gate in it is more of a liabilty to the wielder than a gift.
Icarium is stopped from killing the azath, it is hinted that Gothos does this, if I recall correctly.
Icarium destroys the Azath as far as I remember. He is just nearly dead and exhausted himself.
Icarium is powerful, but not infinite.

As to the Crippled God, why do you think he is more powerful? His nature is poisonous, but that doesn't make him more powerful. He can't be killed properly, but neither can other EGs. In fact, Mael beats him up.

If his sword was that powerful, I reckon it would have been mentioned. It would be more noted. Dragnipur is feared in it's own repsect. Whereas with Icarium, it is the wielder that is really remarkable, not the sword.
Dargnipur is feared for the death it causes, and perhaps its one touch kill. It doesn't make the user any better as a sword fighter. Infact it isn't mentioned that is it unbreakable.
As for Impending Death opposed to Impending Stun, it's possible, but I can't really see it. I mean, damage from being bashed on the head is fairly unpredictable, so how would it be judged. His instinct only works on life threatening situations? Without being aware of the situation, how can it judge at all?
That is why I called it sixth sense. Spider sense even
Also, if Icarium has infinite power, and is therefore unkillable, every attack is of equal risk to him, so no distinction would be made.

[Cusser]

 Grief, on Apr 8 2009, 05:12 PM, said:

If his sword was that powerful, I reckon it would have been mentioned. It would be more noted. Dragnipur is feared in it's own repsect. Whereas with Icarium, it is the wielder that is really remarkable, not the sword.

Wont really add to the rampage your facing in this thread Grief ( <3 ), so Il agree if his blade was all-powerful it would probably had been mentioned, but it is regarded with some mystery, the mention of it being single edged hinting that it is in fact old (

Spoiler

possibly jaghut (Gothos own?) from the wars vs Death?

). The 3 times in the books where it actually meets another blade it breaks the enemy weapon - Karsas Bloodwood sword, T'lan Imass imbued sword and Trulls Blackwood spear. Whereas we know Rakes sword on the other hand doesnt seem to have this breaking effect (Demonlords axe thingy, and the fact he was beaten back by the Sixth (assumingly Dragnipur didnt shatter his/her weapons), however, this only adds to your theory that it might be the wielder that enhances the sword (perhaps fighting technique? Rakes "Cold Iron" swordsplay vs Icariums "Hot iron" all consuming rage?) and then were at a dead end...

[Cusser]

 Grief, on Apr 8 2009, 05:12 PM, said:

If his sword was that powerful, I reckon it would have been mentioned. It would be more noted. Dragnipur is feared in it's own repsect. Whereas with Icarium, it is the wielder that is really remarkable, not the sword.

Wont really add to the rampage your facing in this thread Grief ( <3 ), so Il agree if his blade was all-powerful it would probably had been mentioned, but it is regarded with some mystery, the mention of it being single edged hinting that it is in fact old (

Spoiler

possibly jaghut (Gothos own?) from the wars vs Death?

). The 3 times in the books where it actually meets another blade it breaks the enemy weapon - Karsas Bloodwood sword, T'lan Imass imbued sword and Trulls Blackwood spear. Whereas we know Rakes sword on the other hand doesnt seem to have this breaking effect (Demonlords axe thingy, and the fact he was beaten back by the Sixth (assumingly Dragnipur didnt shatter his/her weapons), however, this only adds to your theory that it might be the wielder that enhances the sword (perhaps fighting technique? Rakes "Cold Iron" swordsplay vs Icariums "Hot iron" all consuming rage?) and then were at a dead end...