[Stradivarius]

Has any one read a feast of souls by celia friedman? thought it was a really good read. like to know other peoples opinions on it

[Use Of Weapons]

Stradivarius, on Apr 8 2009, 09:23 PM, said:

Has any one read a feast of souls by celia friedman? thought it was a really good read. like to know other peoples opinions on it

Yes, I have! Am a huge fan of her writing (_The Madness Season_ is still my favourite story featuring vampires in space! And that isn't a spoiler!) _Feast of Souls_ was excellent, dark and conflicted in her best tradition. The sequel, _Wings of Wrath_ is also available in the US, and UK edition is coming soon AIUI.

[masan's saddle]

Fist Gamet, on Apr 8 2009, 10:03 AM, said:

That's right, mate, the style in Wizard Knight is deliberate to fit with the story. I guess it either works for you or it doesn't and I can see how it might irritate a lot of people. The Book of the New Sun, the story of Severian the executioner would be, I think, the best place to start with Wolfe. There are a few in the series or you can get them in two compilations, iirc.
Shadow and Claw (contains volume 1 and 2) and Sword and Citadel (volumes 3 and 4) are easy to find on Amazon.

Salt-Man Z, on Apr 8 2009, 05:12 PM, said:

I'd also check eBay and AbeBooks, you can sometimes find 'em pretty cheap there. I got my 4-book omnibus off eBay for like $7 shipped.

Thankyou gentlemen.

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

masan's saddle, on Apr 8 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

Interesting to read about Gene Wolfe because the only book of his that i've read was " The Wizard Knight " !

I absolutley hated it and it put me off reading anything else by him. I found it a real chore to get through and whilst I can acknowledge different writng styles, this just didn't work for me. I found the style "lumpy" and the narrative thread was too disjointed to get me involved with the characters. From what some of you are saying, this is not indicative of his normal work ?

I might give him another go, where would be a good place to start ?

Depends what you mean by his style. You can read a passages from the Wizard Knight and the Book of the New Sun and know that Wolfe wrote both, but that doesn't mean the styles are the same. It would be interesting to know what you mean by his style, and what you didn't like about it. For example, if I had to list essential Wolfean elements, I would say:

- central characters travel widely on fantastic adventure
- potentially unreliable narrator (a youngish child in the Wizard Knight, a Memento-type amnesiac in the Latro books, etc)
- a wandering plotline that covers much ground
- large cast of supporting characters who regularly reappear in a manner that rarely appears contrived
- strong mystical/religious themes, in particular Christian/Catholic influences
- very, very obscure explanation of what is really going on (Wolfe doesn't do infodumps, he casually drops hints and references and expects you to work it out)
- adept mixing of science-fiction and fantasy themes, technology, plot devices
- an elegant and archaic use of language (elaborate, flowing sentences and obscure vocabulary)
- excellent and evocative description and characterisation

Do you think the above is a good list? Which elements did you dislike? I would say they were present to various degrees in all of his books I've read so far (making progress on reading them all).

Ha ! I must admit that it was about 2-3 years ago when I read The Wizard Knight, however this list is ringing a lot of bells !!!
I pretty much forgot all about it after I'd read it as I was a bit annoyed and felt like i'd wasted my time. Regarding your list (which from what I can remember, is pretty comprehensive and accurate) I remember feeling nothing for the protagonist, as although he was well written I couldn't place him within the "world". Whether this was done with reference to the faerie style i'm not sure, but whilst the characterisation was good I remember thinking the description of the environments was not. He also irritated me with his interactions with the faerie/nymph/girl ?!

I did pick up on the religious overtones, I seem to remember the kid ( I'm really sorry I can't remember his name and I no longer have the book, gulp) being influenced and guided over and over by moral quandary and something to do with his brother !?!

Combine this with the fact that I was probably reading TMBotF, Banks and god knows what else at the time, as you say the randomness, wandering plotline (ageing?), obscure explanation of events/time and an overly elaborate and flowery prose just frustrated me. To be crude, there was also very little action to keep me going.

Hmmmm, to be fair to Wolfe and this book I was probably not approaching it from the right angle. I'm horrendous at comparing and contrasting and I know what I like. I'd like to think I read it at the wrong time and in perhaps comparing it to Erikson for example, didn't give it a fair go. But i'm not going to lie, if I read it again I would probably feel the same way, sorry.

Is the Book of the New Sun written in a similar style ? Don't get me wrong I like complexity in my books, however for want of a better word ( and from my limited memory of The Wizard Knight) I prefer a bit more structure in the narrative thread, maybe i'm just lazy.

This post has been edited by masan's saddle: 09 April 2009 - 11:48 PM

[Dolorous Menhir]

masan's saddle, on Apr 9 2009, 10:50 PM, said:

Is the Book of the New Sun written in a similar style ?

It very much is. I don't think you would like it, unless your tastes have changed.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'd say the style is similar, but different enough to give it a chance. The obvious similarities are the unreliable narrator, and the meandering plot. That said, The Book of the New Sun (TBotNS) feels a lot tighter--though it may not seem so until you're done.

In the Wizard Knight (TWK), Able the narrator is unfamiliar with the world he finds himself in, and thus his narration can be confusing simply because he's confused, too. Severian, the narrator of TBotNS, knows his world inside-out, and doesn't even consider the fact that his reader might not. Able is trying to relate the world he's discovered; Severian may be trying to manipulate his narrative to his own advantage.

TBotNS's plot also works a lot more along the lines of MBotF, with lots of puzzles and challenges to figure out, and clues being dropped a book or three before the final hint at a solution is even given. TWK, by contrast, is a much more straightforward story.

I'll confess to getting bored with both TWK and TBotNS while reading them; I found they both started to drag about halfway to 2/3 of the way through. But when I finished TBotNS, I felt the urge to immediately go back and read it again and piece together everything I missed the first time. While I enjoyed TWK, I certainly didn't get that feeling upon completion.

I guess my point is that TBotNS is a more challenging read than TWK, but far more rewarding. But I think a challenging/rewarding read is something a MBotF fan can certainly appreciate.

[Jumpy]

I thoroughly enjoyed The Knight. However, I've had The Wizard for about two years now, and cannot force myself to read past the first 1/3 of the book. Doesn't do it for me. Things took a turn for the worst, it seems.

This is the only Gene Wolfe I have read, and honestly I'm not interested in picking up another of his works. Devoured The Knight, though.

I just ordered, from Amazon, "The Darkness That Comes Before," "Lord Bane's Foul," "The Scar," "Storm Front," and "The Blade Itself."
Hoping that I enjoy all of them!

[Salt-Man Z]

Jumpy, on Apr 10 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

I thoroughly enjoyed The Knight. However, I've had The Wizard for about two years now, and cannot force myself to read past the first 1/3 of the book. Doesn't do it for me. Things took a turn for the worst, it seems.

That first half or so of the book dealing with the Angrborn just draaaags. The second half picks up nicely, though.

[masan's saddle]

Salt-Man Z, on Apr 10 2009, 06:06 PM, said:

I'd say the style is similar, but different enough to give it a chance. The obvious similarities are the unreliable narrator, and the meandering plot. That said, The Book of the New Sun (TBotNS) feels a lot tighter--though it may not seem so until you're done.

In the Wizard Knight (TWK), Able the narrator is unfamiliar with the world he finds himself in, and thus his narration can be confusing simply because he's confused, too. Severian, the narrator of TBotNS, knows his world inside-out, and doesn't even consider the fact that his reader might not. Able is trying to relate the world he's discovered; Severian may be trying to manipulate his narrative to his own advantage.

TBotNS's plot also works a lot more along the lines of MBotF, with lots of puzzles and challenges to figure out, and clues being dropped a book or three before the final hint at a solution is even given. TWK, by contrast, is a much more straightforward story.

I'll confess to getting bored with both TWK and TBotNS while reading them; I found they both started to drag about halfway to 2/3 of the way through. But when I finished TBotNS, I felt the urge to immediately go back and read it again and piece together everything I missed the first time. While I enjoyed TWK, I certainly didn't get that feeling upon completion.

I guess my point is that TBotNS is a more challenging read than TWK, but far more rewarding. But I think a challenging/rewarding read is something a MBotF fan can certainly appreciate.

Able !!!, that was his name, I just couldn't remember it.
Your comparison between Able and Severian as narrator is interesting. The fact that Severian may not acknowledge the reader's knowledge of the world is slightly different to picking through the confused discoveries of Able, and after reading this part of your post I immediatley thought of my initial bewilderment on reading Gardens of the Moon ( if that makes sense?)

Your description of the plot devices/ complexities and slow burning development also leads me to feel that i'll give it a go.
I don't mind a slow story as long as there's been enough questions asked to warrant the slog.

As for when I may get around to reading it though, i've got so many other books on the go it might not be for some time !

Cheers

[Jumpy]

Salt-Man Z, on Apr 10 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Jumpy, on Apr 10 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

I thoroughly enjoyed The Knight. However, I've had The Wizard for about two years now, and cannot force myself to read past the first 1/3 of the book. Doesn't do it for me. Things took a turn for the worst, it seems.

That first half or so of the book dealing with the Angrborn just draaaags. The second half picks up nicely, though.

Tell me about it. I was so disappointed, because I started this fairly soon after I finished The Knight.

[Use Of Weapons]

Jumpy, on Apr 10 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

I just ordered, from Amazon, "Lord Bane's Foul,"

The sequel, in which Lord Foul organises a football tournament in a dastardly plot to destroy the Arch of Time by continually hitting the posts to which it is attached?

[Leadslinger]

Anyone else read Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series? I thought they rocked out!

[RangerSG]

I read it when I was a kid and loved it. Not enough to recommend it three times in successive posts though.

[polishgenius]

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 29 2009, 12:02 AM, said:

but many others make the cut-off point after the original Riftwar Series.

Or after the very first book... seriously, in my opinion the only thing he's done that comes close to Magician is the Empire trilogy, which is co-written. The Serpentwar had moments of greatness but was very uneven, though the writing style was considerably better than now - something about his current prose just throws me off. Like he can't be bothered to put in the time, which may be true. Some of the choices he makes are very brave, from what I gather, but I just can't get into the books enough to read them properly anymore.

Ah well.

[Chris]

K.J. Parker's Engineer Trilogy is a must read. I really enjoyed the focus on the technology of war and how it can be the deciding factor in a battle. No magic/elves/hobbits which someone asked for in an earlier post.

I really enjoyed Joe Abercrombie and R. Scott Bakker as well. Acacia by David Anthony Durham seems to be the start to a good trilogy.

[Aptorian]

Chris, on Apr 13 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

K.J. Parker's Engineer Trilogy is a must read. I really enjoyed the focus on the technology of war and how it can be the deciding factor in a battle. No magic/elves/hobbits which someone asked for in an earlier post.

I have to disagree. I read the first book in the trilogy. It is possibly the most boring fantasy book I have ever read. The only thing "fantasy" about it is that it takes place in alternate world than our earth. For all intents and purposes its a book about some european citystates, politics and some machievelian machinations by the manin character the engineer.

The story is extremely slow, predictable and boring. The characters are likeable but really, I couldn't care less if any of them live or die. The whole story is apparently about the Engineer getting revenge, but since I never got even the slightest clue during the first book as to what the engineers plan is, that 700 hundred pages of evasion right there, I have no interest in finding out what comes next.

EDIT: And what technology? The only technology featured is a Scorpion type ballista and mention about some foundries and advanced engineering techniques in a place far far away. I originally picked the book up because I usually like technology in fantasy. I was originally into sci-fi, and mixing in machines in fantasy always excites me. I wasn't necessarily expecting steam-punk or anything, but this book laughable.

[Aztiel]

I'll push Wolfe some more, and add in that if you think about he's doing with the narrator's point of view as you go through New Sun, you'll be astounded. Those books are even more satisfying when you start to think about whether or not Severian is crazy, or simply lying, or not paying attention to some really important things that are going on.

Additionally, Wolfe is a great short story writer, and he's got several books out like that.

For new stuff, I particularly liked the Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. Quick, fun, with characters and plotting that get increasingly intelligent as the story continues on. I bought it for the pretty cover and thought it was one of the better reads I had this year.

[stone monkey]

Severian is as unreliable a narrator as you can get. Part of the fun of reading him is working out exactly how he's misleading you at any given time and whether or not it's deliberate; and if so, why. A reread

Spoiler

once you know that the entirety of the tale is being told by Severian after he becomes Autarch

is definitely advisable.

[Assail]

I'm loving all the input but for the sake of people who haven't read the books you're advising them for/against reading, please don't give huge amounts of detail concerning the plots lol.

Furthermore, this thread is sexy. I vote sticky!

[stone monkey]

If that was directed at me... Well, that is kinda what the spoiler tags are for, in case you hadn't noticed... You'll also notice that the spoilered sentence was deliberately constructed so that it made sense both with and without the spoilered text. I do think about these things on occasion.

Anyway on topic: for those who want to stray a little further afield you might want to look at James Branch Cabell's novels set in the fictional province of Poictesme. They start with Jurgen, A Comedy of Justice and continue on through the Biography of Manuel sequence that starts with Figures of Earth you can find out more via Wiki

[polishgenius]

To be fair, as regards to the spoiler, if you're paying attention he tells you so right at the start.