[HoosierDaddy]

Lesser well known, good reads:

Codex Alera (Butcher, author of the Dresden series that is a MUST read)
Recluce series by L.E. Modisett Jr. (The Chaos Wizard stories are fun... and I've enjoyed all the others as well)
Feist's "Riftwar", "Serpentwar" series, and if you really like there are more beyond them...

All the other good ones have probably been mentioned by now...

[Use Of Weapons]

I liked Iron Council, and I'm not alone. There is more politics in it, and it's a different kind of book from PSS and TS, but it's still good on its own terms.

Also try: Janny Wurts's Wars of Light and Shadow (first book: Curse of the Mistwraith). Her earlier trilogy, The Cycle of Fire (Stormwarden; Keeper of the Keys; Shadowfane) is a great read, crossing that boundary between fantasy and SF, and is also available as an omnibus edition these days.

[Dolorous Menhir]

If you are looking for quality writing, Gene Wolfe is your man.

[Use Of Weapons]

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 2 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

If you are looking for quality writing, Gene Wolfe is your man.

...as a guide for what to avoid?

Seriously, I just cannot get Wolfe at all. I know many people admire him. But I honestly cannot see why.

[stone monkey]

Cool! Those of us who like Iron Council (it's actually my favourite of the three) may be in a minority, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.

This recommendation may not be for everyone (which is an understatement of grandiose proportions, I think) but I absolutely adore The Aegypt Quartet (and pretty much everything else, to be honest) by John Crowley.

[Macros]

@jitsuker
i've onnly read janny wurts collaboration with fiest (Empire Trilogy)
Is the rest of her writing similarly good? (assuming you've read empire )

[Dolorous Menhir]

jitsukerr, on Apr 3 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 2 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

If you are looking for quality writing, Gene Wolfe is your man.

...as a guide for what to avoid?

Seriously, I just cannot get Wolfe at all. I know many people admire him. But I honestly cannot see why.

That's interesting. Which books have you read?

[Fist Gamet]

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 4 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on Apr 3 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 2 2009, 06:52 PM, said:

If you are looking for quality writing, Gene Wolfe is your man.

...as a guide for what to avoid?

Seriously, I just cannot get Wolfe at all. I know many people admire him. But I honestly cannot see why.

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...amp;qpid=565938
That's interesting. Which books have you read?

I can understand that a lot of people struggle with the Books of the New Sun because they can be difficult to follow at times but I would recommend The Knight and The Wizard (iirc) about the boy transported to the magical world. It's really not like anything else you will have read, but the way Wolfe conjures and maintains the element of mythology and old fashioned fairy storyness (new word alert!) is so impressive. The scope and depth of imagination and originality in these books, imho, is terrific.

[stone monkey]

The Wizard Knight or whatever it's called (I have the two in one volume) bugged me precisely because of the language. Without going into too much detail, I can see why Wolfe made the choices he did, inasmuch as the language fits in with the fairytale tone of the story and a certain detail about the protagonist. But this very simplicity of language became a little grating for me and I found myself longing for the stylistic flourishes of The Book of the New Sun. It's not the first time he's done this trick, he uses it in the Latro in the Mists series for other reasons, but it is the first time I've found it dulling my enjoyment of the book.

I would agree that those for whom The Book of the New Sun is a bit rich might more enjoy the rustic fare of The Wizard Knight but for me the opposite was true. I came to the table expecting to be served fois gras and got hotpot instead - that's not to say it wasn't good hotpot, but it wasn't what I'd planned on eating.

(way to overextend a metaphor there, I think... )

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 05 April 2009 - 09:05 PM

[Use Of Weapons]

Macros, on Apr 3 2009, 11:30 PM, said:

@jitsuker
i've onnly read janny wurts collaboration with fiest (Empire Trilogy)
Is the rest of her writing similarly good? (assuming you've read empire )

Um. Um. Well, no. The Empire trilogy marries the best of both authors, I think -- both come off looking much better than either individually.

The Cycle of Fire is probably Wurts's best writing. In Wars of Light and Shadow there are characters (too many characters) with verbal patterns never before seen in human speech. Excessively florid and contrived exchanges of 'repartee' leave me gritting my teeth a lot. But the world is amazing, and the plot is very engaging. Give it a try.

re: Wolfe. I tried to read the Claw of the Conciliator (that the first of the books of the New Sun, right? It was a while ago). Didn't get more than 20 pages in before I gave up.

[Salt-Man Z]

The Claw of the Conciliator is the second book. Hope you didn't try to start the series with that one!

[NeoFoxTrot]

HoosierDaddy, on Apr 2 2009, 04:23 AM, said:

Lesser well known, good reads:

Feist's "Riftwar", "Serpentwar" series, and if you really like there are more beyond them...

I second this. While I can't say I've been a fan of his more recent series, I did very much enjoy his first few based in the world of Midkemia. It's nothing epic, but a good read nevertheless.

[Dolorous Menhir]

stone monkey, on Apr 5 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

The Wizard Knight or whatever it's called (I have the two in one volume) bugged me precisely because of the language. Without going into too much detail, I can see why Wolfe made the choices he did, inasmuch as the language fits in with the fairytale tone of the story and a certain detail about the protagonist. But this very simplicity of language became a little grating for me and I found myself longing for the stylistic flourishes of The Book of the New Sun. It's not the first time he's done this trick, he uses it in the Latro in the Mists series for other reasons, but it is the first time I've found it dulling my enjoyment of the book.

I would agree that those for whom The Book of the New Sun is a bit rich might more enjoy the rustic fare of The Wizard Knight but for me the opposite was true. I came to the table expecting to be served fois gras and got hotpot instead - that's not to say it wasn't good hotpot, but it wasn't what I'd planned on eating.

(way to overextend a metaphor there, I think... )

Setting aside the Wizard Knight, you seem to have enjoyed the Book of the New Sun. In that case, and if you haven't already, you should definitely read the Urth of the New Sun (a 1-book direct follow-up) and the Book of the Long Sun (somewhat related four-parter). The Urth of the New Sun was all right (for Wolfe), but I loved the Book of the Long Sun when I read it recently.

Still have to get to the Book of the Short Sun.

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 06 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

[stone monkey]

I can't believe I haven't mentioned these in this thread already: the three Master Li and Number Ten Ox books by Barry Hughart. Witty, whimsically blackhearted, funny as all get out and only just republished in one volume, after nearly 20 years out of print. Buy them, if we're lucky it'll encourage him to write more of them...

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 06 April 2009 - 10:32 PM

[Fist Gamet]

Re Wolfe: Fair enough, SM. Whilst the writing style of The Wizard Knight never turned sour enough to annoy me, there was a certain degree of "scene jumping" that threw me off on a regular basis, but something about this technique in within the overall style struck me as appropriate. Gene Wolfe is nothing if not a consumate writer and you have to admire his ability to truly explore new styles of writing (that and ihs almost awe-inspiring grasp of language and grammar!)

Personally, I also preferred The Book of The New Sun, and Severian remians with me as an extraordinary character to this day.

[Use Of Weapons]

Nah, I started with the first book. So whatever that one is, I didn't get on with it.

[masan's saddle]

Interesting to read about Gene Wolfe because the only book of his that i've read was " The Wizard Knight " !

I absolutley hated it and it put me off reading anything else by him. I found it a real chore to get through and whilst I can acknowledge different writng styles, this just didn't work for me. I found the style "lumpy" and the narrative thread was too disjointed to get me involved with the characters. From what some of you are saying, this is not indicative of his normal work ?

I might give him another go, where would be a good place to start ?

[Fist Gamet]

That's right, mate, the style in Wizard Knight is deliberate to fit with the story. I guess it either works for you or it doesn't and I can see how it might irritate a lot of people. The Book of the New Sun, the story of Severian the executioner would be, I think, the best place to start with Wolfe. There are a few in the series or you can get them in two compilations, iirc.
Shadow and Claw (contains volume 1 and 2) and Sword and Citadel (volumes 3 and 4) are easy to find on Amazon.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'd also check eBay and AbeBooks, you can sometimes find 'em pretty cheap there. I got my 4-book omnibus off eBay for like $7 shipped.

[Dolorous Menhir]

masan's saddle, on Apr 8 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

Interesting to read about Gene Wolfe because the only book of his that i've read was " The Wizard Knight " !

I absolutley hated it and it put me off reading anything else by him. I found it a real chore to get through and whilst I can acknowledge different writng styles, this just didn't work for me. I found the style "lumpy" and the narrative thread was too disjointed to get me involved with the characters. From what some of you are saying, this is not indicative of his normal work ?

I might give him another go, where would be a good place to start ?

Depends what you mean by his style. You can read a passages from the Wizard Knight and the Book of the New Sun and know that Wolfe wrote both, but that doesn't mean the styles are the same. It would be interesting to know what you mean by his style, and what you didn't like about it. For example, if I had to list essential Wolfean elements, I would say:

- central characters travel widely on fantastic adventure
- potentially unreliable narrator (a youngish child in the Wizard Knight, a Memento-type amnesiac in the Latro books, etc)
- a wandering plotline that covers much ground
- large cast of supporting characters who regularly reappear in a manner that rarely appears contrived
- strong mystical/religious themes, in particular Christian/Catholic influences
- very, very obscure explanation of what is really going on (Wolfe doesn't do infodumps, he casually drops hints and references and expects you to work it out)
- adept mixing of science-fiction and fantasy themes, technology, plot devices
- an elegant and archaic use of language (elaborate, flowing sentences and obscure vocabulary)
- excellent and evocative description and characterisation

Do you think the above is a good list? Which elements did you dislike? I would say they were present to various degrees in all of his books I've read so far (making progress on reading them all).

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 08 April 2009 - 05:25 PM