[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Quick question about how Apsalar fights...she seems to use knives as her exclusive weapons in her fights and assassinations. If she was possessed by Cotillion I'm guessing she has some knowledge of how to use that super-awesome rope of his that makes Kalam shudder when he sees it in that tent. Why doesn't she? Cotillions rope isn't a one of a kind weapon like Brood's hammer or Dragnipur or something that was created solely by someone for just their purposes, is it?

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 23 March 2009 - 06:31 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Cotillion is also known as THE ROPE. It is a fairly unique technique, and we have seen no one else whose style remotely matches this. Before becoming Cotillion, however, he was DANCER. What Apsalar does is Shadow Dancing, which is probably the basis of Cotillion's assassination technique. She has some knowledge of Dancer's past, however, not ALL knowledge of it, which would explain the shadow dancing stuff.

I would say that you should look at it as a Master-Apprentice type relationship, with the Apprentice learning all they could up until the point the Master dies and having left no information on the advancement.

Just, my opinion. But, I agree, Cotillion's rope is sick.

[Silencer]

I think the difference is that, while Apsalar has access to Shadow, and can perform a Shadow Dance, she doesn't have Cotillion's rope because it IS a unique weapon to his position - as the Rope, he represents all assassinations that have ever occurred, and he forms his rope from shadow itself. Apsalar cannot do this, as she is NOT the Rope, she was just posessed by him.

There's quite a bit of emphasis in the earlier books about Cotillion as the Rope - represented by "a count of knots unending". So it's pretty specific to him.

And yes, the rope itself is freaking win. ^^

[D'rek]

Silencer, on Mar 23 2009, 03:11 AM, said:

I think the difference is that, while Apsalar has access to Shadow, and can perform a Shadow Dance, she doesn't have Cotillion's rope because it IS a unique weapon to his position - as the Rope, he represents all assassinations that have ever occurred, and he forms his rope from shadow itself. Apsalar cannot do this, as she is NOT the Rope, she was just posessed by him.

There's quite a bit of emphasis in the earlier books about Cotillion as the Rope - represented by "a count of knots unending". So it's pretty specific to him.

And yes, the rope itself is freaking win. ^^

I concur with this. Maybe Apsalar could use a rope, but without it being a shadowgod-rope, it wouldn't be as cool/potent. Plus it makes for good story telling that Cot's weapon is unique...

[RangerSG]

I think for Apsalar it would just be like a garrote. Also, she uses long knives, as I recall, not just little daggers. And I find the long knives a rather cool weapon too, myself.

But yes, I agree that the Rope's rope rocks.

[Illuyankas]

SUBTLE PENIS EUPHEMISM

[Gem Windcaster]

Or maybe she isn't using a rope just because she doesn't have one.

[Illuyankas]

Gem Windcaster, on Mar 27 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

Or maybe she isn't using a rope just because she doesn't have one.

AGAIN

SUBTLE PENIS EUPHEMISM

[Gem Windcaster]

Maybe she can take Cotillions...

[Kryphon]

Apsalar is listed as an Ascendant.. Is she? Or is she just the greatest assassin ever?

Also, if she's an ascendant is she affiliated with a specific House or is she... (can't think of the right descriptive word)?

This post has been edited by Kryphon: 31 March 2009 - 09:50 PM

[RangerSG]

Kryphon, on Mar 31 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

Apsalar is listed as an Ascendant.. Is she? Or is she just the greatest assassin ever?

Also, if she's an ascendant is she affiliated with a specific House or is she... (can't think of the right descriptive word)?

Is it her that's being listed, or the T'lan Imass goddess that Sorry took the name from? That's a bit of an open question, I think. The T'lan would be unaligned, probably predating warrens (can't say more about her in this forum, but she was mentioned in GotM).

If it is Sorry/Apsalar and not T'lan/Apsalar being listed, I'd say she's aligned with High House Shadow. I've read more than one suggestion she's destined for a title in that House. My whacky theory is she's going to have to choose between love and ascendency. To ascend you have to give up everything in mortality, I don't think she's done that yet. She is still clinging to someone. And I don't think what she's clinging to is nearly powerful enough to ascend, though he's very good.

I would say she's the greatest mortal assassin ever. The Rope is more than she is now, but that's strictly from his ascending.

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 31 March 2009 - 10:28 PM

[End of Disc One]

The ascendant listed in the appendix is the Lady of Thieves, whose name Crokus took for Sorry.

[Kryphon]

I don't know about that.. I seem to recall Shadowthrone remarking that even Cotillion couldn't have done that. I forget the exact quote, but Shadowthrone was amazed at how many Claw she killed. I know it had something to do with her Shadowdance... Bah, my mind is foggy now. I'll re-read it tonight.

[Silencer]

Ah, this argument has been gone over countless times. You can interpret as "Cotillion couldn't do that", or, and this is more likely, "Cotillion hasn't done that" - the exact quote was, I believe, "Not even Cotillion, not even Cotillion..." - somewhat ambiguous, yes?

I'd agree, however, that she is the greatest mortal assassin at this time.
The one in the glossary is not Apsalar-Sorry, but Apsalar-Apsalar'a, the T'lan Imass godess, who stole fire, the Lady of Thieves.

[RangerSG]

I interpreted ST's remark to me "Not even Cotillion ever did anything like that." Meaning, IMHO, as Dancer. It could also mean that he's never done anything of the sort yet. I don't think that ST was suggesting that she is more than Cotillionnow. I find that a very dubious suggestion, even though I think Apsalar rocks and is destined to be the Queen of Shadows.

[beru]

i think he says somthing like: "that shadowdance not even cotilon not even cotilon... (or somthing)

[wareonia]

It was definatly implied strongly that not even Cortillion COULD do that. She cut through over 300? (think it was 341 but not 100% on that) claw and the claw master and didn't even break a sweat. Why would he say not even cortillion has done that YET? It's a pointless statement to make if he thought cortillion could do that he wouldn't be so shocked/awed after all apsalar has kept alot of cortillions skill. I think it is a case of the apprentice becoming the master.

[Silencer]

You are saying a GOD could not kill 300 people? People who, really, weren't prepared, weren't even facing her?
If Cotillion cannot do that, he does not deserve his godhood. He took out the combined crews of two Tiste Edur ships in less than a minute. Immediately after taking out the warriors and warlocks of said ships. Claw are not that good.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I agree. I've always thought of ST's comment as in " not even Cotillion has done that" not has in "not even Cotillion can do that". I mean is the God of Assassin after all and all of Apsalar skills cpme from him

[Aptorian]

Oh god how I hate that "not even cotillion" discussion, it's been done a hundred times and it can never be anything but a matter of interpretation. Cotillion fan boys will deny what ever and people who love Apsalar will claim another thing. Meanwhile Apt with the common sense gets irritated

p. 846 in BH

Apsalar meets up with ST:

Quote

"Tell Cotillion, I have done as he asked."
Shadowthrone made a whispering sound, like sighing, and one almost formless hand emerged from the folds of his ghostly cloak, gripping the silver head of the cane, that tapped once on the cobbles. "I watched, my dear. Your Shadow Dance. From the foot of the Rampart Way and onward, I was witness."
She said nothing.
Shadowthrone resumed. "Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion."
Still, Apsalar did not speak.
The god suddenly giggled. "Too many bad judgements , the poor woman. As we feared." A pause, then another giggle. "Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven claws - all by your hands, dear lass. I still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now. Too bad for her...]

bla bla the scene ends.

Shadowthrone nevers says "Cotillion could not have done that", what he is expressing is disbelief at Apsalar, whom they considered just a pawn, actually managed to kill not just the Clawmaster but 307 other claws.

Apsalar is a flawed carbon copy of Cotillion. She may have grown during the 2-4 years that pass between the ending of GOTM and BH, but to actually suggest that Cotillion could not have done what she did is silly. What ever Apsalar can do, Cotillion can do, backed up by about a hundred years of experience that Apsalar does not command.

If you want to translate Shadowthrones meaning, he most likely meant that he's never seen Cotillion do anything like that.

Never mind the fact that Cotillion destroyed the Edur fleet outside Drift Avalii, easily killing as many Edur as the number of Claws killed in BH.
EDIT: Hmm, that reply seems to be twenty minutes late