[Anomander's Rake]

I really can't figure how powerful the seguleh are as there seem to be a whole bunch of inconsistencies. So, Karsa owns the 17th(not sure exactly but around that rank) without putting in any effort whatsoever. Iron Bars needs everything to just get by against a low ranking seguleh, being an avowed, we can assume his days at sea shouldn't have effected his abilities to much. Iron Bars is said to be able to compete with Skinner. Skinner holds his own against Dassem. Soooooooo... Karsa owns Dassem? I have no problem with this because I believe Karsa could destroy anyone but I don't think that's how it would work out.

[Aptorian]

No that is not how it would work, because you can't make those comparisons. Nothing is ever certain before you see two parties having an actual fight and even then Erikson messes with you.

When you're fighting Karsa you're not having a sword duel, you're involved in a brawl. Karsa doesn't fight fair and Karsa uses his abilities to their fullest. Doen't matter that the woman was a Seguleh 11th. First off, we don't actually know when she last took "a test", and second of all, Karsa didn't really give her a chance.

Karsa is stronger, faster and tougher than a human being BY FAR and therefore even an extremely good fighter is beginning with at a disadvantage. On top of that Karsa is goooood. He spent 80 years of his youth fighting his own kind and getting good at it.

[drinksinbars]

also karsa watches daseem fight and is awed by his skill so there is no way just because he beats the 11th he can take on daseem

[Newbee]

Can't quite remember the details but that fight was ill. Best karsa fight i think, the 11th was awesome she was sickeningly fast but karsa was better he parried her two blades with his clubber of a flint sword. But props to her he didnt break her guard he just said witness and shattered her wrists instead. Apt is right aswell the Seguleh system is not 100% theres always corruption who knows? There are probably lots of seguleh that should be ranked higher like the one that fought iron bars. I also doubt the skill level between lets say the 20th and the 1st is much different i mean there a limits on how fast someone could wield a sword, it could all just be politics and anyway iron bars was accomplished enough for the 20th to speak to him so hes not far off.

[Aptorian]

No the Seguleh 20th (if that was what he was) chose to address him because he wanted to duel him. Why, as far as I remember, wasn't specifically said. Maybe he needed to prove his position to his men, maybe he was intrigued by the potential he saw in Iron Bars, maybe he just likes to fight and this was the best challenge he'd faced in a while.

[Newbee]

Preciously my point.

[masan's saddle]

I know there was a lot of speculation about Rell in RotCG and that he had to leave "home" for personal reasons, but considering his deeds, how highly do people rate him in term of the seguleh pecking order thingy ?

Apologies if this has been discussed before.

[Aptorian]

Newbee, on Mar 23 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Preciously my point.

Right, but my point was that the fact that the Seguleh leader wanted to duel Iron Bars doesn't mean that Iron Bars was anywhere near the same level of skill as thos Seguleh was.

[Abyss]

Aside from the ho'd win debate, keep in mind Iron Bars was NOT at his best by any means. Sure, he was in better shape than the rest of his crew and of course he's Avowed, but even so, he wasn't exactly awesome when he picked that fight.

In RG Karsa broke the female Seguleh's wrists with one parried hit. She made the mistake of facing him as if he were just a big human, not accounting for the sheer strength. She was fast enough to parry, just not strong enuf to take the impact. So that wasn't a 'skill vs skill' fight.

As for Rell, he wasn't a 'top ranked' Seguleh when he left home. He was somewhere way lower - not specific in the flashback but the suggestion is he was a blackmask or a very low ranking - and his hissy fit against the match decision got him tossed. (i wondered whether the message wasn't a deliberate loss to teach him humility, but that's just an aside) If he were to have returned before facing Ry' in RCG, there's no telling just what rank he may have been able to attain. All we do know is that he was VERY good.


- Abyss, thinks those masks need some day-glo stickers.

[Newbee]

Didnt like Rell. Defo not top 20.

[Abyss]

Newbee, on Mar 23 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Didnt like Rell. Defo not top 20.

He took on Ry, alone, two or more times. To be clear: Rell, alone, took on the manjackal god who ate entire armies, more than once.

I hate to dabble in ho'd win territory, but in MoI, Thurrule, who was apparently top 20 or close to it, couldn't beat one undead Kell hunter.

So like him or not, the guy had skillz, and there is a certain poetic irony in an exiled Seguleh becoming that good.

- Abyss, ...could, however, have done without the seventeen refs to Rell's long greasy lanky slimy sweaty hair...

[Newbee]

Hes fighting style was not on par the seguleh we've seen they kill quickly they dont have pitched battles. 2/3 attacks if your good, usually its 1, after that your in pieces. Seguleh seem to go for the kill like the one that fought iron bars, it didnt kno he was avowed so it gave him what it thought was a killing blow knowing its gona die itself. Probably why karsa had to stop the 11th so early knew soon or later she would go sucidal. Mok would have just sliced Ry open would have lost half his face but the fight would have been over in seconds.

[Abyss]

That's an interesting point re Seguleh fighting style - going to for the hard/fast kill ( Altho Mok in MoI was totally showing off - probably to provoke Tool - when he decapitated the Kell hunter). I like your point re how IB won his fight.

That said, Rell COULDN'T win vs Ry', which is why his fights were impressive. Without the Wickan witch's gate, the entire pile-on at the end of RCG still couldn't beat Ry'. while it's open for debate and we'll never know, i'm not so sure Mok would have had a clear win against a foe that would either heal or just not be cut as bad as it should. But i agree Mok would have had a better fight and been less likely to end up dead.

One of the big question marks about Seguleh is their relationship with sorcery. We haven't seen any mages, but Mok identified Garath's Poliel infection, Mardun and Door in TtH were clearly playing at divination, and someone at Krul's Bar also in TtH suggests a Seguleh connection to Denul. So it's sort of a live question whether a Seguleh vs Ascendent fight is basically extremely skilled human vs warren-user or that plus warren vs warren.


- Abyss, likes warren zevon...

[masan's saddle]

Abyss, on Mar 23 2009, 05:41 PM, said:

That's an interesting point re Seguleh fighting style - going to for the hard/fast kill ( Altho Mok in MoI was totally showing off - probably to provoke Tool - when he decapitated the Kell hunter). I like your point re how IB won his fight.

That said, Rell COULDN'T win vs Ry', which is why his fights were impressive. Without the Wickan witch's gate, the entire pile-on at the end of RCG still couldn't beat Ry'. while it's open for debate and we'll never know, i'm not so sure Mok would have had a clear win against a foe that would either heal or just not be cut as bad as it should. But i agree Mok would have had a better fight and been less likely to end up dead.

One of the big question marks about Seguleh is their relationship with sorcery. We haven't seen any mages, but Mok identified Garath's Poliel infection, Mardun and Door in TtH were clearly playing at divination, and someone at Krul's Bar also in TtH suggests a Seguleh connection to Denul. So it's sort of a live question whether a Seguleh vs Ascendent fight is basically extremely skilled human vs warren-user or that plus warren vs warren.


- Abyss, likes warren zevon...

Rell was a pimp, nuff said. In his duels wiyh Ryll, he constantly forces him back and lets not forget it was Rell's suicidal stomach thrust that finally puts jackal boy into Liss' magic ring (oo-er !), with swords that were " destined" for him.

Also Hurl hints at Rell's potential and how highly he is regarded;

Quote

This was not the way it was supposed to happen.Heng had taken you as it's new protector. You were to take her place in the city temple. Usher in a long and prosperous future....yet here you lie. You gave your life to end the curse. Perhaps that was what they sensed. That somehow you would end it for them.

@ Abyss, Interesting point about the seguleh and sorcery. Could it be that they stake so much in their martial prowess that to use sorcery would be seen as beneath them or even cheating ? Or could it be some historical thing to do with the connection with Raest. I can't remember where I read about the seguleh being the tyrant's servants or something ?

I could be completley wrong though !

[Aptorian]

I like the theory that they are somehow all disconnected from magic. They are the martial group and the Turruld Cabal are the magical might.

Of course they may also all be Mortal Swords one and all of the Tyrant.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on Mar 23 2009, 02:40 PM, said:

...Of course they may also all be Mortal Swords one and all of the Tyrant.

I love this theory SO MUCH, an entire army of Mortal Swords...

...but the Tyrant-King(s) doesn't seem to be generating power for them to draw on (that we know of), and Bluepearl or whoever did say 'Denul'... i figure there's a running Denul tap in some form that enhances the Segulehs' strength, reflexes, healing, etc.

Unless, of course, the Seguleh First is the Tyrant King. Ooooooooo....

Put another way, if you do have a Cabal of High Mages and Priests working for you, why not use them to enhance your army in new and creative ways?

- Abyss, ....ooooo.....

[masan's saddle]

By jove ! I forsee an " epic battle " in the next book involving hordes of seguleh being aided by a massive chanelling of Denul to keep em' frisky, then out comes The First striding in to gee up the troops........, when he meets Karsa !

I'm getting carried away and shall stop.

[L'oric]

I am going to jump around a lot here.

I do not think Thurule was anywhere near twentieth. He just had about half as many markings an an initiate of the 11th order? Which is what Senu was and Senu was his brother...not sure if Mok is or is not but that was a pretty vague sentence when the fact that Senu and Therule are brothers is mentioned in MOI.

Rell was in the Top 1000. We know this because he said so, unless of course the top 1000 is not the highest ranking like is said earlier/later in the book.

I think Rell was and could definately hold his own against any other seguleh we have seen until you get to Mok who is far and away the best we have seen..including what little we got of the 2nd in TTH.

I think it is pretty straight forward as far as who can kill what, and that is anyone can be killed by someone of comparible ability. Dassem still fears the arrow in his back. Also I would have to argue against Skinners fight in RotCG with dassem as a clase match. Dassem hits him over and over again and never once gets hit in return. Crippling blow after blow hits Skinners armor until Dassem realized that not even Vengeance can get through it. It would be like Rake hitting Skinner with Dragnipur and the armor not allowing a cut. How suprised would Rake be? Dassem owned Skinner and not even the most enchanted armor we have seen (maybe we havent even seen any others) failed to save Skinner from an obviously superior fighter.

Iron Bars is indeed weakened by his ordeal at sea, plus the hole in his chest and beating he took. As an avowed the wounds are real and only his will to survive allows him to continue. The pain is still there, a broken bone is still useless until healed etc. The duel with the Seguleh also injures him with the cut to the leg and the neck. Finally the Top ranked Seguleh seems to want to duel him because of what he has heard about the Avowed. He talks to him because he has to assert his superiority by having iron bars back down...knowing full well Iron Bars wont accept because of his near fatal injuries. His final some other time shows just how much respect the Avowed have garnered on Genebackis.

I am still hoping Blues ends up being better than Skinner. Long live the sword fighting mages! There is not enough of them if you ask me.

Sincerely

[blackzoid]

L'oric, on Mar 23 2009, 10:03 PM, said:

I am going to jump around a lot here.

I do not think Thurule was anywhere near twentieth. He just had about half as many markings an an initiate of the 11th order? Which is what Senu was and Senu was his brother...not sure if Mok is or is not but that was a pretty vague sentence when the fact that Senu and Therule are brothers is mentioned in MOI.

Rell was in the Top 1000. We know this because he said so, unless of course the top 1000 is not the highest ranking like is said earlier/later in the book.

I think Rell was and could definately hold his own against any other seguleh we have seen until you get to Mok who is far and away the best we have seen..including what little we got of the 2nd in TTH.

I think it is pretty straight forward as far as who can kill what, and that is anyone can be killed by someone of comparible ability. Dassem still fears the arrow in his back. Also I would have to argue against Skinners fight in RotCG with dassem as a clase match. Dassem hits him over and over again and never once gets hit in return. Crippling blow after blow hits Skinners armor until Dassem realized that not even Vengeance can get through it. It would be like Rake hitting Skinner with Dragnipur and the armor not allowing a cut. How suprised would Rake be? Dassem owned Skinner and not even the most enchanted armor we have seen (maybe we havent even seen any others) failed to save Skinner from an obviously superior fighter.

Iron Bars is indeed weakened by his ordeal at sea, plus the hole in his chest and beating he took. As an avowed the wounds are real and only his will to survive allows him to continue. The pain is still there, a broken bone is still useless until healed etc. The duel with the Seguleh also injures him with the cut to the leg and the neck. Finally the Top ranked Seguleh seems to want to duel him because of what he has heard about the Avowed. He talks to him because he has to assert his superiority by having iron bars back down...knowing full well Iron Bars wont accept because of his near fatal injuries. His final some other time shows just how much respect the Avowed have garnered on Genebackis.

I am still hoping Blues ends up being better than Skinner. Long live the sword fighting mages! There is not enough of them if you ask me.

Sincerely

I don't think Rell ever says that he is in the top 1000. I assumed that he was of the level of Senu or maybe Therule at a stretch. Rell was a initiate. That doesn't mean that he was a worse fighter then those 2, its just that he didn't progress far along to achieve a high rank, before he was booted out. Lets not forget that Senu and Therule were destroying KCCM in MOI, while Mok was looking for Tool.

The woman who Iron Bars killed was among the top 1000, I assume. The boats leader said that he would add Iron Bar's name to the top 1000 after he killed her. She Iron Bars must have taken her place.

Skinner is a Karsa like character. He may not have the best sword-fighting skill, but he is a character of incredible will. He demanded the title of King of the House of Chains. Rhulad was a loser, and Kallor for all his coolness got stuck with Reaver. You have to respect Skinner for that.

He shrieked, 'There is peace!' and it was
No difficult thing, where I sat in the saddle
Above salt-rimed horsefles to lift my crossbow
Aim and loose the quarrel, skewering the madman
To his proclamation. 'Now,' said I, in the
Silence that followed, 'Now, there is peace.'

[BeLeG]

About the Thurule vs Kell Hunter matter

I think the Kell Hunters protecting the Matron should be considered "Elite"
(they wore heavier armour, If I remember correctly.When I read MoI I got the impression that those two Hunters were above the average but I dont know for sure)