[ritchiediaz]

A few other questions/musings relevant to this thread:-

If the Otataral Dragon is sealing some kind of 'gate' that stops the entry of the jade giants, or other alien entities post fall of CG, what was the 'cataclysmic fall of jade' that Heboric and Paran averted? Does this invalidate the 'gate' theory?

How long is something considered 'alien'?

Were the Tiste races considered 'alien' when they entered Wu?

Are the demon princes / Galayn etc considered 'alien'?

It strikes me that after 130,000 years the CG may not be alien any longer.

There are a few other instances in the Malazan books where entities have been described as 'alien' with a significant meaning - i'll double check references tonight, but once when Itkovian embraces one of the priests in Capustan mention is made of an 'alien' entity, and it's unclear as to whether this is the CG.
Another reference is made with some association to Baruk if I remember correctly as well.

In our usage alien can mean many things - illegal alien, alien being or ET.

In Wu terms it seems to imply much more difference - possibly from a different plane of existence with entirely different laws of physics etc?

[dawnkiller]

ritchiediaz, on Apr 14 2009, 10:12 AM, said:

If the Otataral Dragon is sealing some kind of 'gate' that stops the entry of the jade giants, or other alien entities post fall of CG, what was the 'cataclysmic fall of jade' that Heboric and Paran averted? Does this invalidate the 'gate' theory?

Context for the aversion? (It's been a while since I read some of these, but I don't seem to recall Heboric having really accomplished anything by the JGs -- mostly because I recall being pissed off about it when he died because of that : ).

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How long is something considered 'alien'?

Were the Tiste races considered 'alien' when they entered Wu?

Are the demon princes / Galayn etc considered 'alien'?

I'd consider anything that hails from its own dimension, with its own beliefs, pantheon, and ecosystem "alien", although it's only the CG whose presence seems to be cancerous, as he puts it. The Tiste, at least the Andii, appeared to regard their current living situation as living in exile (though with Black Korel and MD's return this may change) -- the Edur are also refugees, clinging to their own traditions and their own gods. They are perhaps compatible to the world, or at least aren't outright rejected by it, but they're not originally OF the world.

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It strikes me that after 130,000 years the CG may not be alien any longer.

Technically, I think he no longer is -- at least in terms of the pantheon. He's been accepted into the DoD specifically so he may be bound by the rules of the world. That doesn't mean he's not still harmful, but I think it's safe to say that with the addition of worshippers and his own house his original role -- whatever that was in his own world -- has been supplanted.

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There are a few other instances in the Malazan books where entities have been described as 'alien' with a significant meaning - i'll double check references tonight, but once when Itkovian embraces one of the priests in Capustan mention is made of an 'alien' entity, and it's unclear as to whether this is the CG.
Another reference is made with some association to Baruk if I remember correctly as well.

I don't remember the details from MoI (not unusual at this point) but I do think that I remember another mention of "alien" in TtH within the Dying God arc -- not the DG/Bellurdan, but the very brief reference of the god trapped in the machine which Bellurdan rode on his way out of chaos. (Aside: I would still really, really like that detail clarified . . . like where the hell the other god went.)

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In our usage alien can mean many things - illegal alien, alien being or ET.

In Wu terms it seems to imply much more difference - possibly from a different plane of existence with entirely different laws of physics etc?

That was the definition I'm looking at. I believe it might have been MT where a summoned demon turns out to have been, not a warrior, but some poor fisherman grabbed at random by the summoning. More powerful than most of the people it met in this realm, true, but among its own people probably nothing all that impressive.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, racism has little foothold in a world where black and white are primarily concerned with ganging up against green.

[Abyss]

Interesting point above, since the CG has definitely acquired an aspect ('imperfection', i suppose) along with worshippers... LOTS of worshippers apparently... so whether he was 'alien' in any sense to begin with, he's definitely taken up residence now.

Whether he even still wants to go 'home' is also up for debate - apparently he was at war there (per MT).


- Abyss, isn't going to even start on the 'Penis Temple' thing...

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on Apr 14 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

Interesting point above, since the CG has definitely acquired an aspect ('imperfection', i suppose) along with worshippers... LOTS of worshippers apparently... so whether he was 'alien' in any sense to begin with, he's definitely taken up residence now.

Whether he even still wants to go 'home' is also up for debate - apparently he was at war there (per MT).

I think he does, or at least wants people to leave him the hell alone. He was absolutely dripping with bitterness in his conversation with Janelle in RG (which I recently quoted...somewhere...); I don't know that he wants to go home, per se, but he doesn't seem to have any love for his current aspect. Silchas Ruin speculates that if there weren't idiots out there in love with self-annihilation he might actually have gotten better by now. And you know. Nailing him to an earth goddess didn't help.

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- Abyss, isn't going to even start on the 'Penis Temple' thing...

Do you mean that freaky vision of the altar that's two people getting it on? If so, then thanks. I'd actually managed not to think about that horribly inexplicable interlude in, oh, almost three days now . . .

[ritchiediaz]

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Nailing him to an earth goddess didn't help.

Well as mentioned many times in the series, the CG is in pain and suffering.

Take what Duiker went through - now imagine that for 130 thousand years!

Yup his aspect may well be tinged with a little bitterness, and a little madness IMO.

[tiam]

As for the previosly mentioned Kruls heart is SD an KG. Its in MOI when Krul talks to Envy. Its the scene with the underground temple under the floor boards where Envy talks about how difficult it is keeping the Seguleh in check shes with.

[Tattersail_]

Abyss, on 09 March 2009 - 01:43 PM, said:

Consider that in the MT prologue Scabby jammed an invested knife into Silch's back, but decided that despite the fact that Silch was lying there on the ground wrapped in shadow chains and bleeding a lot, it was STILL easier to toss him in an Azath rather than kill him.

Now consider that the CG is MORE powerful than Silchas, among others. It's not like various parties who have been involved in the various Chainings, Rake's assassin Mage's, Gethol, Cotillion, etc... haven't shown themselves to be sufficiently cold-blooded when necessary. Someone would have killed him if they could have. It's telling that they couldn't.

I also wonder whether the very first Chaining wasn't intended to be an act of mercy - "...crazed uber powerful other dimensional god has to be restrained but it's not his fault he was yanked to Malazanland in the first place so let's just wrap him up in these nice comfy chains and maybe he'll calm down... oops. Sorry Burn."

Y'know what else is interesting - i think it was in MoI that it's mentioned that before he was jerked out of his home dimension, the CG was engaged in a war with other gods... which means there may be a bunch of seriously powerful CG-types out there somewhere who AREN'T chained or severely broken.


- Abyss, could say Burn got burned...

was he in a war with the jade statues, or whoever controls them?