[HoosierDaddy]

Mentalist, on Mar 26 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 26 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

Skywalker, on Mar 26 2009, 01:26 AM, said:

Sixty, on Mar 26 2009, 06:27 AM, said:

Mushroom, on Mar 25 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

Wasn't Heboric the Shield Anvil?

Not the Destriant.

AFAIK he was named the Destriant (by Fener, I believe) and took on the role of Shield Anvil.

First of all... MIND BLOWN

Now... IIRC, Heboric was Destriant to Fener before the boar god fell... then for a while he thought he had become Destriant to Treach/ Trake - but actually he had become Shield Anvil and just didn't know it... at the end of BH, I assumed he had become a Itkovian-esque Shield Anvil without a god backing him up, giving solace to the souls trapped in jade...

Following the Itkovian analogy, that would mean that Heboric has now ascended having done more or less what Itkovian did only with a different species of soul. But the fact that he is hanging out in his incorporeal dream place with Tog, Fanny, and Fener made me think - where is Treach? Also, will Heboric be running into Toc the Younger sometime soon? (he rode off to the gods of war after all)

No, Heboric had been a possible Destriant, but then he was cast out of Fener's cult because of the Reve. Karnadas (of the Grey Swords... I think that was his name) WAS the Destriant, until he died and Fener was pulled down to Earth.

As for the Itkovian thing... very interesting theory. The Redeemer replaces Hood and Heboric/Justice replaces...either the gods of war, another portion of Death (judgment), or perhaps an ordered-Justice God to deal with the inorder/Chaos of the Crippled God?

I don't think we can stretch the parallel that far
Itkovian took up his burden on a battlefield, it was recognized and his sacrifice was acknowledged my the numerous soldiers + T'lan Imass who created his Barrow.

Heboric, otoh, died at sea, and no one aside form the existing gods + Mappo and his crew actually knows that he saved Wu.
He doesn't have the prerequisites to be worshipped and to ascend.

the way I figure it, he's gonna be a conduit for the Jade power, possibly a beacon for where the next Jade chunks should fall?

All the souls in the Jade Giants disagree with their being no witnesses...

[amphibian]

polishgenius, on Mar 25 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Is it just me, or is this one much more surreal than most previous prologues? The way it's written, with half the PoVs being obviously insane or damaged in some way, gives it something of the tone of a fever dream, and nothing is presented clearly (and not just in the "I'll explain later" style of most Malazan books).

Interesting, but it'll be odd if the whole book is like that. Ambition in it, anyway. It's got me interested...

Why do I have the feeling Steve Erikson is cackling somewhere, doing the Iskaral Pust dance and shouting "Somebody got it! Somebody actually got it!"

[Mentalist]

yeah, but they souls can't institute a cult of Heboric....

which is the whole point--A god is made by those who worship him.

Heboric currently, afaik, doesn't have any worshippers, and I fail to see where they'd just appear from.

[Sinisdar Toste]

*cough* stormy, gesler and the other boar company marines *cough*

[Silencer]

Why is it called Ampelas Rooted? Someone mentioned that Ampelas was pinned in the Shadow Realm, well...hence, PINNING the skykeep to the ground in the "real world". See my theory on Azath as pins, as the K'Chain are clearly related to dragons, it makes sense that their sky keeps also have something to do with the dragons - so if they are all named after the dragons, and rely on their power...then Ampelas Rooted would have gained the "Rooted" suffix after Rake pwned Ampelas and bound her.

As for Icarium - the PoV containing Rautos kind of confirms the "many but one" theory about Icarium - he has become shattered into those seven who where in proximity to his death - one of which was Taxilian.

I be the flying K'Chain assassins won't be as hard out as we think they will be - it's going to be like the T'rolbarahl. That being said, the concept is awesome! Although...FEATHERY wings? O.o

And Heboric has a role to play. Again. Though one could suggest that it may simply be an overview/impending doom viewpoint to offer...

Gah. SO MUCH AWESOME.

[Traveller]

Soooo Awesome... and so much to discuss already!

K'chain POV!!! YAY!

Redmask explained... YAY! SE must have really been laughing about that one - we should have guessed it was all there for a reason.

K'Chain Assassins.. no need to say more, that is just too awesome for words.

Heboric still-not-dead... HOORAY!

My morning has been mightily improved by reading this... it really does look good.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 26 March 2009 - 08:12 AM

[Aptorian]

Not just K'chain Assassins. 4-6 meter tall, winged, 6000 year old, magically imbued, supernaturally dangerous KCCM assassins. Oh fuck yes! Screw all you Cotillion, Cowl or Kalam lovers, all my money would be on Shi'gal in a knife fight

I wonder if Shigal has natural chameleon camouflage? Because I have a hard time imagining him hiding anywhere in a wasteland with no tree's

Some comments to other peoples theories.

The ribbers and the fathers. I think these are just starved dogs and some kind of humans, possibly servants of some god like the CG. The Matrons thoughts on human civilization outside the hive... or was that Silgar? ... suggests that there is a big civilization on Kolanse, I believe something like that is also mentioned in RG. So I think some kind of hub bub is taking place within that human empire that has caused a refugee train to flee away from that. Maybe some crazy Jhag appeared in the middle of the capital and started keeeeeeening.

I did think of both T'lan Imass = ribbers and old tree = Jaghut staked to Azath aswell though.

About Icarium. As someone else mentioned above, Icarium is now inhabited by at least seven human minds. Not necisarrily souls, maybe just inprints of copies taken of the minds of the people caught be the machine. What I like was someone mentioning above that Icarium seems to be dislocated from his own body, like his concious being kicked out of its shell and this may just have cured the chaotic infection in his mind.

About the dragons chained. We don't know the KCCM are connected with the Ottataral Dragon in the IW yet, but it's beginning to sound much more likely. I don't think Empalas, the dragon from the shadow warren, is the one hanging on the crucifix in the prologue. The three dragons from BH were said to have been usurpers trying to take the shadow throne. So more likely they were chained by a god, maybe Tulas Shorn.

[Tapper]

Awesome. Prologue alone redeems the whole Redmask question mark.
Icarium, how nice as well. I think there is more significance to the seven souls and seven different languages, though. It seems a real coincidence that there are only seven of them, and each from a different culture as well.

If I read it correctly, I think there is a significance to it being a stubby tailed one standing near the dragon.From this, it seems like the shorttails are the ones crucifying dragons, maybe to ground the sky keeps of the regular ones in their war? Iirc, Sorrit was also found bleeding and dead in a KCM skykeep, no?

Can't wait to read more.

[Silencer]

They were chained by Rake - by their own admission, iirc.

Ampelas almost certainly isn't the dragon on the stake, that's someone else, possibly from a different series of events entirely. And bleh, T'lan Imass can take out K'Chaine Che'malle, Cotillion would walk all over a Shi'gal.

(let's not go there...please...not until we've seen more)

[Hetan]

*wishes she could speculate*

[Traveller]

Silencer, on Mar 26 2009, 08:53 AM, said:

They were chained by Rake - by their own admission, iirc.

Ampelas almost certainly isn't the dragon on the stake, that's someone else, possibly from a different series of events entirely. And bleh, T'lan Imass can take out K'Chaine Che'malle, Cotillion would walk all over a Shi'gal.

(let's not go there...please...not until we've seen more)

Don't forget that most of the fighting with KC has so far been against undead ones, which were supposedly slower and easier to kill than live ones..

[Silencer]

Yes, but Mok, Senu, Thurule, and Tool all carved through the K'chain - not as fast, yes, but supposedly more resiliant, and Cotillion was willing to stand against Icarium, plus has the SHADOW DANCE on his side. But yeah.

[lorddarkflare]

Could it be that the short tails are hunting down dragons in an effort to kill magic? I mean they must know about the death spell, maybe they believe that this is the way to end it, they have the technology.

Also, it is about damn time that we say some of the higher level mental functions of the KCCM, i was tired of them looking like dumb lizards.

Lastly, that Matron seems to be extremely desperate, as she is throwing out mutations left and right. My question is this: who are her enemies?

Seriously, who is badass enough that these KCCM cannot take? And should we be sympathetic to the KCCM or not? For some reason, i want some of the good guys to join forces with them.

[Traveller]

'Ve'Gath Soldiers stood flanking the central ramp, twice her height and in their arcane armour resembling the vast machinery of Root far below. Ornate grilled visors hid their faces save their fanged snouts, and the line of their jaws gave them ghastly grins, as if the implicit purpose of their breed delighted them. More so than the J'an or the K'ell, the true soldiers of the K'Chain Che'Malle frightened Kalyth to the very core of her being. The Matron was producing them in vast numbers. No further proof was needed – war was coming.'

Bit scary that the K'ell hunters aren't even the 'true' soldiers of the KC... more like scouts, maybe... eek.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 26 March 2009 - 09:22 AM

[beru]

i read the prologe twice...
and i dont get it
serlsy my berain dows not work as normal

im stunned
serisly

this post is proof

[Traveller]

I think it looks like one of the best yet...

[Aptorian]

Silencer, on Mar 26 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

Yes, but Mok, Senu, Thurule, and Tool all carved through the K'chain - not as fast, yes, but supposedly more resiliant, and Cotillion was willing to stand against Icarium, plus has the SHADOW DANCE on his side. But yeah.

4-6 meters tall! And you though Karsa's reach is unfair...

[Traveller]

And 'The Matron was producing them in vast numbers...'

This is going to get messy.

[drinksinbars]

that was awesome.

no speculation, just savouring it

[Ain't_It_Just_]

What esle can I say but OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is awesome!