[Yellow]

Wasn't a game of thrones the first one (I haven't read any of the series)? If so, that hardly counts (Bakker took about 15 years to write his first one... you wouldn't be happy for anyone to repeat that gap mid-way through a series).

Now, I want the guy to finish his series ASAP, because then I'll start reading it... so from a neutral's perspective, I just can't help wondering why he is so psychologically incapable of finishing this book.

He works a lot (many other projects on the go), so it's not like he's lazy. He paints miniatures (from what I can gather on this thread), and from experience I know that takes up a shit load of your time (seriously, eight hours can disappear in a heartbeat). So, it sounds like he just hates writing this book, because if he really wanted to finish it, it would be finished. Maybe he fears finishing it? Maybe he worries that when it comes out it won't be that great, and that fear is preventing him from writing.

God, if you think this wait is long, just wait until the wait for the next book How many books does he have left to write, by the way? No matter what Herr Cougar says, I'd be slightly worried about him finishing the series at this rate.

[Optimus Prime]

Wert can confirm this, but I believe the series is supposed to be 7 books total? So that would leave 3 remaining?

It's the pompous attitude that made me stop reading his "blog". Like "how dare you question me?".

[Aptorian]

HE'S A HUMAN! LEAVE GEORGE ALONE!!!

[Optimus Prime]

Yes we are a bit hard on him. I hear he paints a mad figurine....his skills are in high demand.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm a member of the "Holy Hell look at all this other fantastic fantasy material I've discovered..." Feast was a premie baby, and read like one. ADwD, at this point, in my own opinion, needs to deliver. And, I think George knows that, thus the wait.

Are we being hurt? No.
Do a lot of people feel like they were misled? Yes.
Does some blame, either large or infinitesimal (I lean towards infinitesimal),fall on GRRM's shoulders? Yes.
Are we being hurt? No.

Let it be. Go read one of the series/books recommended in one of the threads in this Forum, there are a fantastic (pun intended) amount of them.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 09 April 2009 - 08:53 AM

[Optimus Prime]

I'm sure he feels an enormous amount of pressure.

Feast was a "set up" novel. And yes, I'm expecting big things from DANCE....but I guess what's hard for me to deal with is that GRRM set the bar very high....and I almost worry that he's running out of "gold" so to speak.....like the series can only go down from the first three novels...which were AWESOME.

[stone monkey]

It'll take as long as it takes. That is the deal with these things. Yes, it would be nice if they were out quicker, but if the eventual result is up to scratch then it's worth the wait. And we've all got other things to do in the meantime. Just be glad you're not waiting as long for this one as some; I'm fairly sanguine about this sort of things these days as I waited 20 or so years for John Crowley to get around to finishing his Aegypt sequence, and that was only four books!

We're also somewhat spoiled by SE with his book a year schedule, which I imagine must be half killing him. So the upshot is merely to chill and get on with reading all the other cool stuff out there while you're waiting...

[wolf_2099]

Aptorian, on Apr 9 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

HE'S A HUMAN! LEAVE GEORGE ALONE!!!

That thing you posted a picture of, is not.

[Werthead]

Quote

Wasn't a game of thrones the first one (I haven't read any of the series)? If so, that hardly counts (Bakker took about 15 years to write his first one... you wouldn't be happy for anyone to repeat that gap mid-way through a series).

Bakker took 15 years to plan his first book. The actual writing took about 18 months though.

And I'm not sure why the first one doesn't count. GRRM had a large fanbase from Wild Cards and elsewhere in 1991 and when they heard he was doing an epic fantasy and returning to novels after spending years in TV there was much excitment (which is why the series sold to Bantam and Voyager after a fairly substantial bidding war between different publishers). It wasn't the same thing, of course, but it wasn't the situation with Bakker and Erikson where the first book came out of nowhere and bowled people over.

stone monkey, on Apr 9 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

We're also somewhat spoiled by SE with his book a year schedule, which I imagine must be half killing him. So the upshot is merely to chill and get on with reading all the other cool stuff out there while you're waiting...

Yup, and that's SE said the post-main-sequence books will come out at longer intervals. Of course, it would help if he realised he didn't have to make each book a thousand pages long. The fact that the last three books in a row have been very close in page count makes me wonder if he's writing to a specified word limit for each book rather than letting the story unfold in its own way. Seriously Steve, if Book 9 was only like 700 pages long instead, I'm sure no-one would hold it against you

[Yellow]

Werthead, on Apr 10 2009, 12:56 AM, said:

And I'm not sure why the first one doesn't count. GRRM had a large fanbase from Wild Cards and elsewhere in 1991 and when they heard he was doing an epic fantasy and returning to novels after spending years in TV there was much excitment (which is why the series sold to Bantam and Voyager after a fairly substantial bidding war between different publishers). It wasn't the same thing, of course, but it wasn't the situation with Bakker and Erikson where the first book came out of nowhere and bowled people over.

Of course it doesn't count. If the first one isn't out, nobody is stuck mid-way through the series wondering what the hell is going to happen next.

It must be very frustrating when you're about 4 books into an x book series and you have to wait up to four (or however many) years for the next one. That's too long to remember all the details, and there's too many books to do a reread before each new one comes out. Which is why I haven't started reading that series yet.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 10 April 2009 - 09:57 AM

[RangerSG]

I don't think there would have been much of an issue with aDwD at all if he hadn't said in the afterward to aFFC that aDwD was "essentially finished" and would be out in the next year. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking your time to write. God knows I have and do.

There is something wrong with making a statement that is so completely off base and then not giving a serious explanation as to why you were wrong. Not only is he incredibly far behind a SELF-IMPOSED deadline, he blames everyone else for being late with it too.

I can understand why people wonder if he just doesn't care about Westeros anymore, because honestly when he bashes the people who support him and then says "it'll be out soon" for the 50,000th time, are we really supposed to not think he's lost his plot?

[Zhuangzi]

RangerSG, on Apr 10 2009, 04:23 AM, said:

I can understand why people wonder if he just doesn't care about Westeros anymore, because honestly when he bashes the people who support him and then says "it'll be out soon" for the 50,000th time, are we really supposed to not think he's lost his plot?

I think I'd like to point out that because of the internet, many big-league writers are getting more access to their fans, and vice versa. We have guys like Sanderson and Rothfuss who are being very honest in letting us know how the process works and how personal life can interfere with writing. Then we got weird obstacles like the bookstores controlling the publishing - if you read Sanderson's blog about how the book stores basically controlled how many words aMoL is allowed to be directly relates to the book being split up into three separate books. And you can't just chop a book into pieces and expect it to be good... so hence another six months of literary work.

I honestly wish I had as much patience to work consistently on one project over and over again like some of these guys do. I can totally sympathize with GRRM that he's unable to stick to one project 6 days a week 12 hours a day. My head would explode.

So yah, you don't have to be supportive, but try to be understanding at least.

[Yellow]

Ha, six days a week, twelve hours a day?

Erikson does four hours a day, and he gets a book out every year. If GRRM did anywhere near that kind of work on his series, it would be finished by now.

[RangerSG]

Zhuangzi, on Apr 10 2009, 10:08 AM, said:

RangerSG, on Apr 10 2009, 04:23 AM, said:

I can understand why people wonder if he just doesn't care about Westeros anymore, because honestly when he bashes the people who support him and then says "it'll be out soon" for the 50,000th time, are we really supposed to not think he's lost his plot?

I think I'd like to point out that because of the internet, many big-league writers are getting more access to their fans, and vice versa. We have guys like Sanderson and Rothfuss who are being very honest in letting us know how the process works and how personal life can interfere with writing. Then we got weird obstacles like the bookstores controlling the publishing - if you read Sanderson's blog about how the book stores basically controlled how many words aMoL is allowed to be directly relates to the book being split up into three separate books. And you can't just chop a book into pieces and expect it to be good... so hence another six months of literary work.

I honestly wish I had as much patience to work consistently on one project over and over again like some of these guys do. I can totally sympathize with GRRM that he's unable to stick to one project 6 days a week 12 hours a day. My head would explode.

So yah, you don't have to be supportive, but try to be understanding at least.

I would have been, if he has been TRUTHFUL in the first place. If he was really "essentially done" with the book, then no matter what the issues, it wouldn't have taken 5 years. Also, the room they're willing to give someone like Martin, who's produced multiple best sellers and has legions of fans, is FAR greater than it is for someone like Sanderson, who was, at that time, still perceived as a risk. And even now is not nearly in the same "league" in terms of self-marketing, as Martin. Bookstores would never block a aSoIaF book. They'd take it if it was as long as the rest of the series combined, and they'd take it tomorrow. Why? They know that the book will fly off the shelf no matter how big it is. Selling Sanderson still represents a risk, and was one even more then. Stocking Martin represents no risk at all. So he has considerably fewer roadblocks to getting published.

All of which only amplifies my concern that he's lost his plot. Because realistically, that's the only thing that would put things off this long. He either has no enthusiasm for it anymore, or no sense of where to take it.

[Salt-Man Z]

Yellow, on Apr 10 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

Erikson does four hours a day, and he gets a book out every year. If GRRM did anywhere near that kind of work on his series, it would be finished by now.

Absolutey, if every writer functioned the same, which they don't.

[Yellow]

No, you're right. Some write their series. Some don't

[McLovin]

Blacksox, on Apr 8 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Any writers who believe they are above criticism, and their readers do not have the right to expect a finished product in a reasonable amount of time need to check their ego's and maybe consider another profession.

A finished "product?" That's the difference between us - I don't want GRRM's next installment to just be "product." If you want "product" go read some Dragonlance novels.

Criticize his books all you want. But that's not what you're doing, is it? You're judging him because his publishing schedule doesn't fit your oh-so-important life. Well, that's just too bad. Like any professional writer has to, he's got a lot of irons in the fire. And he has set some of the highest standards for his work based on previous installments. So no, my friend, you will not get your beloved "product" until he feels it's damn good and ready.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Nobody wants ADWD more than I do, but I would rather wait another few years and get GRRM's best effort, than have something akin to "Dragons of Boo-hoo-why-does-my-twin-brother-hate-me-oh-that-pesky-kender-stole-my-pouch Godawfulness." Find something else to read in the meantime - no shortage of suggestions in these forums.

[RangerSG]

McLovin, on Apr 11 2009, 02:33 PM, said:

Blacksox, on Apr 8 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Any writers who believe they are above criticism, and their readers do not have the right to expect a finished product in a reasonable amount of time need to check their ego's and maybe consider another profession.

A finished "product?" That's the difference between us - I don't want GRRM's next installment to just be "product." If you want "product" go read some Dragonlance novels.

Criticize his books all you want. But that's not what you're doing, is it? You're judging him because his publishing schedule doesn't fit your oh-so-important life. Well, that's just too bad. Like any professional writer has to, he's got a lot of irons in the fire. And he has set some of the highest standards for his work based on previous installments. So no, my friend, you will not get your beloved "product" until he feels it's damn good and ready.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Nobody wants ADWD more than I do, but I would rather wait another few years and get GRRM's best effort, than have something akin to "Dragons of Boo-hoo-why-does-my-twin-brother-hate-me-oh-that-pesky-kender-stole-my-pouch Godawfulness." Find something else to read in the meantime - no shortage of suggestions in these forums.

Once again, this argument conveniently overlooks the fact that the ONLY person who raised the release expectations was Martin *himself* by stating in the afterword of aFFC that aDwD would be out in less than a year. So this isn't a question of writing a book from scratch and polishing it. This is a matter of a book he said was essentially finished 5 years ago being shelved because he can't be bothered to work on it. No one here has said that Martin couldn't have taken his own sweet time if he hadn't piled the expectations on himself. But you don't raise expectations of a quick follow-up, then walk away from it without an explanation. And then tell your readers it's THEIR fault when you miss your self-imposed timetable.

Martin put the timetable on himself. It wasn't us putting it on him. Next time you try this argument, please keep that little fact in mind. Personal integrity matters for any profession other than lawyers or politicians.

[Werthead]

Quote

I would have been, if he has been TRUTHFUL in the first place. If he was really "essentially done" with the book, then no matter what the issues, it wouldn't have taken 5 years.

Unless of course he essentially rewrote it from scratch. Which is what happened.

Quote

Also, the room they're willing to give someone like Martin, who's produced multiple best sellers and has legions of fans, is FAR greater than it is for someone like Sanderson, who was, at that time, still perceived as a risk. And even now is not nearly in the same "league" in terms of self-marketing, as Martin. Bookstores would never block a aSoIaF book. They'd take it if it was as long as the rest of the series combined, and they'd take it tomorrow. Why? They know that the book will fly off the shelf no matter how big it is. Selling Sanderson still represents a risk, and was one even more then. Stocking Martin represents no risk at all. So he has considerably fewer roadblocks to getting published.

What the heck? You know that A Memory of Light, Sanderson's new book, is actually the last Wheel of Time book and is being credited to Robert Jordan with 'Brandon Sanderson' in small letters at the bottom? The Wheel of Time books are massive sellers, and the eagerly-awaited final novel (albeit now split in three) will outsell ADWD at least four-to-one, based on previous sales of the two series. The fact that the bookstores can still dictate terms to Tor on that basis shows that GRRM's 'clout' in the business is not as great as you make out.

Quote

All of which only amplifies my concern that he's lost his plot. Because realistically, that's the only thing that would put things off this long. He either has no enthusiasm for it anymore, or no sense of where to take it.

Or he's just doing what he's done since writing the first book, producing a novel in 3-5 years. That's been the case all along with the sole exception of ASoS, which took a shorter amount of time due to GRRM doing 12-hour days on the book (including two subsequent Christmas Days) to get it finished as soon as possible. Funnily enough he didn't want to do that again and again for another four books in a row, as that would have entailed burn-out.

RangerSG, on Apr 12 2009, 01:02 AM, said:

Once again, this argument conveniently overlooks the fact that the ONLY person who raised the release expectations was Martin *himself* by stating in the afterword of aFFC that aDwD would be out in less than a year. So this isn't a question of writing a book from scratch and polishing it. This is a matter of a book he said was essentially finished 5 years ago being shelved because he can't be bothered to work on it. No one here has said that Martin couldn't have taken his own sweet time if he hadn't piled the expectations on himself. But you don't raise expectations of a quick follow-up, then walk away from it without an explanation. And then tell your readers it's THEIR fault when you miss your self-imposed timetable.

I agree in principle that the root cause of all the problems was GRRM saying he had 1/3 of the book ready to go in mid-2005 and that it should be out in late 2006/early 2007, which raised expectations to a high level. I also agree that he never really came out clear and strong and said, "I've dumped most of that material and am starting a lot of it again from scratch." You had to dig through some of his statements and convention interviews to work that out. In fact, he backed off from making comments about ADWD at all to avoid the problem of him saying something, people getting excited, then disappointed when he didn't make it. GRRM has said himself he's always been optimistic. Sometimes he's right (ASoS came out many months ahead of schedule) but mostly he's not.

That doesn't really change the fact that it's a grossly inaccurate attempt at simplification to say he shelved the book 5 years ago because he 'can't be bothered to work on it'. He works on it most days. The problem is that this is, in terms of plot structure and complexity, one of the most complicated-to-write fantasy books of all time. If he screws it up, he not only damages this book and the series, but the work needed to bring The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring in at a decent length and in a decent period of time will be increased exponentially. We'll also probably see the series spreading to eight books at least if that happens.

So pulling off ADWD in a way that it's both good and fulfils its complex role in the overall structure in the series is what is causing the immense writing and rewriting time on the book. So he takes the time and hopefully we get a good book. If he hadn't, we'd have gotten Crossroads of Twilight Redux. The bigger danger that I can see is that he goes in the opposite direction and over-writes and tries to make it 'perfect' and we lose the spark of spontaneity that made ASoS such a great book.

[Wry]

Wert i have to say, Fair pla to you having the patience to repeat yourself calmly again and again.

Two things i don't really understand about the Anti-martinite argument. Firstly this sense of entitlement - you shell out 20 bucks for a book and feel you are somehow owed all the subsequent books within a given timeframe. that makes no sense, you're owed nothing, you received the book you paid for. there's a vague argument for those who've prepaid for the next release, but then the grievance is with the publisher not the writer.

Secondly is when people say Martin lied, or was not truthful when he predicted an earlier release. He lied? Deliberately mislead us? really? That makes absolutely no sense, where does he possibly gain an advantage in giving an earlier release date if he had no intention of fulfilling it. In fact all it would do would be to make his life much harder.

And to everyone who holds up Erickson as an argument as to how it should be done... well just look at the dropping standard in the last few books for an explanation as to why most authors don't do a book in a year.