[Cowl's Disciple]

Old Hunch Arbat, on Feb 19 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

1. Analyze the ever-shifting political alliances on Wu
2. Determine whether or not you know all of the plots and subplots beyond all doubt
3. Review the author's propensity to obfuscate
4. Determine the expected "hold time" of an Azath House resident, placed there by a lying, conniving, deceitful god for reasons we are not aware of
5. Research the LD50 of Paralt Spider Venom
6. Write an essay offering an opinion (if available) regarding the likely candidate(s) for the assasin's assasination, and the reasons held by each candidate including motive and accessibility
7. Include references please for your factual assumptions, and opinions for items 4, 5, and 6

Thank you.

OHA

Apparently I’ve been laboring under the misapprehension that this forum was for friendly discussion rather than scholarly dissertations.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Thyr, on Feb 18 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

L'oric, on Feb 19 2009, 02:23 AM, said:

I am going for the Seti Ferrule, aka Sweetgrass, for the throwing knives and you got me for the warren magics. No one else is all that powerful on the Empire side. Some unnamed Claws who when their warrens are put together were strong enough to hurt her badly? I also do not think that Vorcan's daughter is dead...I do not know if she is a shapeshifting demon or a human with a demon form that is or is not soletaken, but I think she is alive.

I do not see the warren as being the crippled gods either.

I didn't get the impression she was dead either, driven off and wounded but not dead.

I'd have to agree with the comments re: nature of the Warren (not the CG's) and that the demon is not dead. I'm still holding out for a different (set of) assasin(s).

In one of the books we are told of Baruk's grabbing hold of a demon (or its soul, spirit, whatever...) that he and Crone then inspect. We discover that the body occupied by this demon is human. I thought it was a male, but I'm not sure. This would certainly alert Baruk, who seems to be pretty well acquainted with Vorcan, to the possibilities inherent in such a human-demon cross. I'm not suggesting it was Baruk who attacked the Laseen-killer, but the list of possible suspects is, if nothing else, fun to contemplate and perhaps longer than might initially meet the eye.

...actually it was Kalam, with a spatula, in the tent...

OHA

[Cowl's Disciple]

Old Hunch Arbat, on Feb 19 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

...actually it was Kalam, with a spatula, in the tent...

OHA

Well played sir.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Thyr, on Feb 18 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Old Hunch Arbat, on Feb 19 2009, 10:57 AM, said:

1. Analyze the ever-shifting political alliances on Wu
2. Determine whether or not you know all of the plots and subplots beyond all doubt
3. Review the author's propensity to obfuscate
4. Determine the expected "hold time" of an Azath House resident, placed there by a lying, conniving, deceitful god for reasons we are not aware of
5. Research the LD50 of Paralt Spider Venom
6. Write an essay offering an opinion (if available) regarding the likely candidate(s) for the assasin's assasination, and the reasons held by each candidate including motive and accessibility
7. Include references please for your factual assumptions, and opinions for items 4, 5, and 6

Thank you.

OHA

Apparently I’ve been laboring under the misapprehension that this forum was for friendly discussion rather than scholarly dissertations.

That was intended to be a joke, you doofus. Perhaps the humor was a bit too dry and sarcastic - my apologies, and it was not directed at you.

Iindeed, some of us (me, at least) become intrigued by the intrigue, and love to try out theories, some of which are found to be completely wrong, some of which are bang on, and some of which lie somewhere in between. I enjoy the period after my second read and before the next release by formulating and supporting some of these theories. By posting my thinking on these puzzles I hope to share my enthusiasm for sorting through the information made available to us, which is often more abundant than is readily apparent - but distributed across several books, and revealed by different authors. I confess to a certain frustration when some, rather than donating enthusiasm and offering an opinion, post the equivalent of a cross between a "raspberry" and the sound of the "wrong answer" buzzer.

"Dissing" the opinions of others is much easier than formulating one of your own (as you have done), and does little to stimulate the sorts of discussion you seem to be encouraging and participating in.

OHA

[foolio]

Thyr

Quote

Apparently I’ve been laboring under the misapprehension that this forum was for friendly discussion rather than scholarly dissertations.

as did I

OHA

Quote

"Dissing" the opinions of others is much easier than formulating one of your own (as you have done), and does little to stimulate the sorts of discussion you seem to be encouraging and participating in.

Sounds to me like you want blind acceptance. I dont normally disagree with posters, but it just seems that this theory, TO ME, is weak. You are grasping at straws. There is a motivational problem, and then to assume it was Kalam because Heavy weapons were used in a site of battle and a military camp just seems odd. I can hear it now, " look Kalam struck over there too, heavy weapons were used, and over there, and over there, oh yeah, over there as well."
Last time we saw Kalam alive and kicking he was busy having a personal war against Surly and her Claws. Dont think he would
1 feel safe going to a military camp filled with Claws
2 want to protect Surly, the person who ordereed him killed. I thought it was clear he chose the other side last time.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

foolio, on Feb 19 2009, 05:27 AM, said:

Sounds to me like you want blind acceptance. I dont normally disagree with posters, but it just seems that this theory, TO ME, is weak. You are grasping at straws. There is a motivational problem, and then to assume it was Kalam because Heavy weapons were used in a site of battle and a military camp just seems odd. I can hear it now, " look Kalam struck over there too, heavy weapons were used, and over there, and over there, oh yeah, over there as well."

I am not particularly attached to the Kalam/QB" theory, and to illustrate that this is the case I'll quote parts of previous posts, of my own...

Quote

I am, however, trying less to claim, definitively, that it was Kalam and QB, than I am attempting draw attention to what I see as a deliberate literary device used to focus our curiosity upon the killing of Mallick's favorite assasin.

...and...

Quote

As I mention above, I am not completely committed to the "Kalam and QB" solution. I am, however, convinced that the identities of the ultimate assailants in this case, are not trivial.

You're hung up on the "it was Kalam" claim you assume I'm committed to - which I am NOT - see my quotes above. You're taking issue with a theory that I've only tossed out to stimulate debate and which I'm offering *only* as a question and as a starting point for further discussion. The debate has, essentially, moved on and left you behind. And you still haven't come up with any original ideas of your own, just disagreed with mine.

You can either dismiss my claim that the identities are significant but hidden and render no opinion at all, leaving the discussion to others who find the issue interesting.

OR:

You can accept the premise that I've proposed and come up with some ideas of your own. But simply stating that it wasn't Kalam and then standing back, satisfied that you've actually offered an opinion of your own is hardly the stuff of creative debate.

OK - so you don't think it was Kalam - I could come up with several scenarios that *could* justify Kalam's involvement (i.e. he wasn't *for* Laseen, he was *against* Mallick Rel and thus rid the world of his most powerful agent, and ST arranged his release form the AH because he'd been cured of the spider venom) but I don't care if you agree with that theory. Offer one of your own that is at least marginally better than "It was probably just some guy" and I'll start paying attention.

OHA

[foolio]

Quote

You can either dismiss my claim that the identities are significant but hidden and render no opinion at all, leaving the discussion to others who find the issue interesting.

I didnt realize you made the rules for this board , yet again , I am learning something new...

Quote

I am not particularly attached to the Kalam/QB" theory

Its in your title and I thought you were saying this is "proof that Quick Ben and Kalam are back."

Quote

The debate has, essentially, moved on and left you behind. And you still haven't come up with any original ideas of your own, just disagreed with mine.

I , and several other folks who commented, all offered that it was some random person in the camp, which brings us to the next point....

Quote

Offer one of your own that is at least marginally better than "It was probably just some guy" and I'll start paying attention.

Why is "probably some guy" not a valid oppositional response? I am not the only one to voice it. Why does it have to be someone we know or are familiar with? There are thousands of people around the scene that we are not familiar with, most of them willing and able to attack someone they see attacking their empress. If the main question is ,"who attacked Laseens killer?", then some random claw or soldier is not only a valid answer, it is infinitely more likely that Kalam or Quick Ben...Let me help you out, if you dont like that answer ask the question, "what KNOWN character is most likely to have attacked Laseens killer?"

Now, I leave you to get pissy with the next person that disagrees with you. Thats twice since just this thread got started....keep it going it is now a streak

This post has been edited by foolio: 19 February 2009 - 07:44 PM

[Abyss]

Friendly HEAVY HANDED MIGHTY MOD GOD POWERED NOTE OF DOOOOM, DOOOOOOM I SAY that there is a topic to this thread and discussing that topic would be a more useful waste of space than sniping at each other in between an otherwise entirely interesting discussion. Drop it. Move on. Be nice. Wash your socks.


I also thought the 'heavy knives' and 'waves of sorcery' were just random Claw attacks. That said, these were fairly specific descriptions, but even so, Kalam uses fighting knives more than throwing ones, and virtually every mage above squad level (as most Claw tend to be) does the 'waves' thing.

Plus events in TtH and RG really really suggest QB and Kalam could not have been there at that moment.

- Abyss, ...could make a 'waves goodbye' joke here...

[Old Hunch Arbat]

I have just posted in the DoD forums, my opinion re: the term "Jhistal." As a spoiler at the end of that post (spoiler for those who have read DoD but NOT RotCG) I have commented further about this topic and possible reasons for Lasseen's death, Rel's ascension to the throne, and Tavore's intentions for her wandering army. Comments welcome.

OHA

[Silk]

I need to re-read this book as I don't recall the attack mentioned. I just remember it as Laseen kinda walking around after a battle and gettign whipped and then the demon just disapearing.......... *doh must remember not to partake of the whacky when reading a crucial part of the tale*

I do however like the Silk mention as he is probably the strongest of possible magickers left over (aside from those who did the chaos portal thing) and could the throwing of the dagger snot have been the undercover agent who went off in search of Ghelel (spellign could be attrocious here) and at the end.

[GingerBreadMan]

Silk, on 18 August 2010 - 09:28 AM, said:

I need to re-read this book as I don't recall the attack mentioned. I just remember it as Laseen kinda walking around after a battle and gettign whipped and then the demon just disapearing.......... *doh must remember not to partake of the whacky when reading a crucial part of the tale*

I do however like the Silk mention as he is probably the strongest of possible magickers left over (aside from those who did the chaos portal thing) and could the throwing of the dagger snot have been the undercover agent who went off in search of Ghelel (spellign could be attrocious here) and at the end.

I don't like that theory, wasn't he still hanging out in Heng?

It was probably a random Claw or Captain Moss who threw the blades and possibly a random claw mage or maybe even Bala who reacted with magic.

[Silk]

There we go, thats the name I was looking for Captain Moss.... as for the Silk thing well that was more a recognition of my name sake than based on theory ..

[GingerBreadMan]

Silk, on 18 August 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

There we go, thats the name I was looking for Captain Moss.... as for the Silk thing well that was more a recognition of my name sake than based on theory ..

Fair enough, just saying that from what we have read Silk doesn't care about anything other than his city so I doubt he would attempt to avenge Laseen

[HiddenOne]

I think the unknown assassin is Mallick Rel's bodyguard, Oryan. His powers are a variable factor, so we can't rule him out. I'm sure that Mallick could easily have had him or another person there to act in case Devil-Girl failed or kill her once her job is done, for various reasons.

Comments?

Edited for name insertion

This post has been edited by HiddenOne: 20 August 2010 - 08:35 PM

[GingerBreadMan]

HiddenOne, on 20 August 2010 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think the unknown assassin is Mallick Rel's bodyguard, Oryan. His powers are a variable factor, so we can't rule him out. I'm sure that Mallick could easily have had him or another person there to act in case Devil-Girl failed or kill her once her job is done, for various reasons.

Comments?

Edited for name insertion

Doubt it..

I think his bodyguard would be guarding his body, especially since they were approaching/entering a war zone infested with Claws/Veils.

Plus I don't think Mallick or Oryan would have any reason/motivation to attack her, she was a very useful tool and showed no motivation to betray them..so why wouldn't Mallick keep her around as his own personal assassin.

[HiddenOne]

GingerBreadMan, on 22 August 2010 - 07:04 PM, said:

I think his bodyguard would be guarding his body, especially since they were approaching/entering a war zone infested with Claws/Veils.

Plus I don't think Mallick or Oryan would have any reason/motivation to attack her, she was a very useful tool and showed no motivation to betray them..so why wouldn't Mallick keep her around as his own personal assassin.

He could have been dispatched long enough to do the job, travelling by Warren.

After the job was done, her usefulness would have ended. And Mallick could not have any trails leading to him associated with the assassination, which could interfere with his path to the top.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Taya is alive, IMO. Too ambigious of a statement, "melting, and transforming into something else" (paraphrased). She is part demon, is she not? Besides, maybe mommy is hanging around in the far background, giving her a little nudge and prod here and there. She is a High Mage and allegedly a full-blood demon to boot, IIRC. We never do find out what Vorcan's warren is either throughout the series, or do we? Maybe its that Aral Gamelon (however the demon warren is spelled.....i think its breifly mentioned in QB's encounter with Bauchelain in Capustan in MOI) that she fled into? Probably a warren that is rarely used or accessible via humans.

Or none of the above. Just my opinion that Taya is alive and kicking, is all. And i agree with most that it was simply soldiers reacting like they should by hurling blades (which would most likely be heavy, as soldiers generally use heavy weapons to fight, i would imagine anyhow) at someone who just stabbed their Empress, and nearby squad mages/talents doing the same.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 26 August 2010 - 09:54 AM

[The Seguleh 46th]

To clarify on the Vorcan maybe helping Taya out part, its not a crazy theory really. Maybe this is Taya's first time out on her own, contract-wise, or just plain living. It wouldn't be out of the question for Vorcan to want to see how her baby is faring, giving a little help here and there via warren or knife. It's not like we see a whole lot of Taya throughout the book anyhow, and when we do, it appears that she is mostly observing the ferocity of Laseen, which i take as her either doing her research, or just stringing the hunt out a little longer for the sheer pleasure of it. Also, did Vorcan ever recieve her payment of ridiculous proportions from the GotM contract that the Empress took out on the Cabal assassinations? I imagine she did, but if she didn't, then maybe that's another angle to be explored? Or not. I have no clue really, but this is fun.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I doubt Vorcan got her payment as she spent years in an Azath afterwards, and never finished the job she was hired for.

[The Seguleh 46th]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 26 August 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

I doubt Vorcan got her payment as she spent years in an Azath afterwards, and never finished the job she was hired for.

Yeah, that's a good point. Should've seen that one coming, as far as two years in an Azath goes. Still, the contract was for each Cabal member killed, and i don't think it HAD to be all of them. All of them woulda netted the highest payment obviously, but still. I don't know. Crazy theory anyhow....