[redJAKO]

What exactly did I miss with the massive army and mages containing the Crimson Guard in some sort of underground (to me) cave or such...then letting them go due to the ferocity and the decision to not save the "sin" of keeping them for later generations?

Huh?! I've been searching around the forum and see no discussion on it..

[redJAKO]

http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...showtopic=13904


A little bit of duscussion...any more thoughts?

[MTS]

I don't think you missed anything, really. All that business with the Primogenatrix basically told us that some time ago some Avowed got trapped in a cave (the why eludes me, or wasn't stated), and then later on when the Diaspora ended, they busted out with the help of some random Jaghut and were met with fierce resistance by their captors. All the details about the island's people had no real relevance to the plot other than giving us an example of where all the Avowed were spread to, and indeed how far they ranged looking for K'azz. Unless it comes up in another book (maybe Stonewielder), I wouldn't really concern myself with who they are and what's going on with them. MBotF is full of mysteries that will probably never be solved, so maybe this is another one of those small glimpses into a reclusive island people somewhere. I'm thinking they are remnants of that Genostel Empire that covered most of the globe (mentioned in MoI I believe), and the Avowed were in the Genostel Archipelago.

[Sindriss]

As I recall it was Iron Bars and his mates that escaped from the cave and later on met the segulah on the ship.

[MTS]

Nope. Shimmer remarks that it was the 3rd Company who were imprisoned in a cave when pondering where all the Avowed got to and in Unta it's mentioned when she and some others are using a turtle, "much like the one the 3rd Company reported using to escape their imprisonment." According to the RotCG dramatis personae, that is not Iron Bars' company, as he is in the 4th, and the 3rd consists of Sour, Toby and Lor-Sinn, among others.

Besides, in MT Iron Bars is the only Avowed, as he is commanding only one Blade, not a whole company. And even if it was the 4th Company (which i'm fairly sure it wasn't), Iron Bars wasn't among them, as he was in Lether during MT, only a few years before GotM, and from what we can gather during the scene where they escape, the "red devils" have been in there for a lot longer than what years have passed since MT.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 26 January 2009 - 01:52 PM

[Aptorian]

It can't have been Iron Bars since they'd been imprisoned for what could have been decades. Of course now we're getiing into MT vs GotM timelines here...

[MTS]

The timeline is not important, the timeline is not important, the timeline is not important...

[Wampyry]

As I recall, the sister of the Primogenatrix hired some Crimson Guards to help her usurp the Throne. The CG were defeated, but at great costs. The Primogenatrix did not want to try and imprison them again as, she believed they would escape again and wreck havoc on future generations. So, she let them go - even assisted the CG with a boat.
The bit about the Jaghut I didn't get unless it had something to do with the construction of the cave like the Jaghut used blocks to build - strictly a guess.

[lfex]

 Wampyry, on Jan 26 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

The bit about the Jaghut I didn't get unless it had something to do with the construction of the cave like the Jaghut used blocks to build - strictly a guess.

I think it means Primogenatrix is a Jaghut, but she forbids using this name (presumably because of fear of T'lan Imass)

[Aptorian]

That would be stupid since the Author normally loves telling us those things..

[Urizen]

 lfex, on Jan 27 2009, 08:39 AM, said:

 Wampyry, on Jan 26 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

The bit about the Jaghut I didn't get unless it had something to do with the construction of the cave like the Jaghut used blocks to build - strictly a guess.

I think it means Primogenatrix is a Jaghut, but she forbids using this name (presumably because of fear of T'lan Imass)

I doubt it, since Jaghut's don't form societies. Also, Jaghut's are powerful, you'd think a conclave of Jaghut's would be able to deal with a minor CG band. I suppose the Primogenatrix could be a Jaghut Tyrant that has enslaved the the aera but she seems too weak and not very tyrannical.
I have posted it elsewhere that the Primogenatrix and her people might be Jhag.

[Sinisdar Toste]

even jhags would be be able to take on the CG i should think...
anyone care to rustle up the specific quote? perhaps some context would help

[lfex]

 Sinisdar Toste, on Jan 28 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

even jhags would be be able to take on the CG i should think...
anyone care to rustle up the specific quote? perhaps some context would help

Relevant quotations:

1. Timmel's gaze shot to the gaping cave entrance, dark, open… ignored. Gods of the Elder Ice..

2. Looking down at her, the demon woman spoke something in her tongue before disappearing. Timmel recognized none of her words save one that shocked her utterly. Jaghut

3. The clash of battle receded as the shield-dome edged ever farther away. That word, that forbidden word. So, all has not been forgotten out there in the wider world. Ancients truths remain alive somewhere. One place too many for her and her kind.



Third quotation suugests very strongly Timmel is a Jaghut, IMHO. Perhaps benevolent Jaghut tyrant?

[Abyss]

I assumed that the skeletal jaghut that emerges from the cave with the Avowed is someone they found once they were locked in there. After all, we know from HoC and TB that the Imass tended to imprison Jaghut under big rocks or in caves and that they could survive millenia like this, and we know from MT that Jaghut were fond of hiding from the Imass in buried tombs. So one way or the other, once they were caved in, the avowed started looking around and found a friend.

The implication i took from this... " The clash of battle receded as the shield-dome edged ever farther away. That word, that forbidden word. So, all has not been forgotten out there in the wider world. Ancients truths remain alive somewhere. One place too many for her and her kind."

...was that whoever the Primo'x' people were, they were threatened by the Jaghut and therefore the revelation that one was still alive was shocking. Remember the Tyrants like Raest, and Jhenna in NoK suggesting that the Jaghut had once 'protected' (read: enslaved) humans. The people on that island were perhaps once victims of a Jaghut Tyrant.

- Abyss, ...cool.

[lfex]

 Abyss, on Jan 28 2009, 07:49 PM, said:

I assumed that the skeletal jaghut that emerges from the cave with the Avowed is someone they found once they were locked in there. After all, we know from HoC and TB that the Imass tended to imprison Jaghut under big rocks or in caves and that they could survive millenia like this, and we know from MT that Jaghut were fond of hiding from the Imass in buried tombs. So one way or the other, once they were caved in, the avowed started looking around and found a friend.

The implication i took from this... " The clash of battle receded as the shield-dome edged ever farther away. That word, that forbidden word. So, all has not been forgotten out there in the wider world. Ancients truths remain alive somewhere. One place too many for her and her kind."

...was that whoever the Primo'x' people were, they were threatened by the Jaghut and therefore the revelation that one was still alive was shocking. Remember the Tyrants like Raest, and Jhenna in NoK suggesting that the Jaghut had once 'protected' (read: enslaved) humans. The people on that island were perhaps once victims of a Jaghut Tyrant.

- Abyss, ...cool.

Well, a woman emerging from the cave had crimson cloak, so I assume she was just Avowed mage. After all, Avowed are notoriously hard to kill. I didn't notice anything suggesting she could be a Jaghut. Also, Tmmel IMHO isn't scared because Jaghut may survive somewhere, but because people still remember them which suggests outside world isn't safe for her.

[Urizen]

 lfex, on Jan 28 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

 Sinisdar Toste, on Jan 28 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

even jhags would be be able to take on the CG i should think...
anyone care to rustle up the specific quote? perhaps some context would help

Relevant quotations:

1. Timmel's gaze shot to the gaping cave entrance, dark, open… ignored. Gods of the Elder Ice..


Third quotation suugests very strongly Timmel is a Jaghut, IMHO. Perhaps benevolent Jaghut tyrant?

This qoute, to me, speaks against Timmel being Jaghut, since the Jaghut in general are not into active God worship and besides, who/what would be this Elder God of Ice, Grizzin Farl? The Jaghut are Gods/Masters of Elder Ice from what we know.
I can on the other hand see Jaghut being mistaken as Gods by "younger" races, Jhags, humans etc etc, much like Kyle's people worshiping Osric as Father Wind

[Wampyry]

Might be something minor like rage-rant, "you can't hold us in a cave unless you encase us in ice; and your are not Jaghut." Yeah, I doubt it, too

[Khellendros]

I thought it was quite clear (unlike so many things in RotCG) that the Primogenatrix etc were Jaghut, or at least Jhag. Timmel's fear after hearing the word 'Jaghut' from the CG stems from her fear that their little Jhag island community, one of the few safe places, will be discovered by all those who wish Jaghut dead (such as the T'lan Imass) should the CG report their find to anyone after escaping.

This scene also served the purpose of showing how powerful and stubborn CG Avowed were, i.e. having decades-worth of patience developing their plan of escape in the cave, and being strong enough to take on Jhag in the first place.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Since when do Jhag fear their full-blooded relatives?

[HoosierDaddy]

 Ain't_It_Just_, on Feb 5 2009, 03:10 AM, said:

Since when do Jhag fear their full-blooded relatives?

Jhag don't fear Jaghut, they fear the response of their announcement.