[Ain't_It_Just_]

Perhaps she serves to give life?

[Andirak]

As I understand it most creatures avoid death, even in Wu, where dead means you're still alive. You would think she could come up with a way that avoids death, even if it's to give life. She's a freaking goddess. Or is it that thing of seeds needing to die so they can grow anew? I read that somewhere in some big book.

[Lisheo]

Or maybe the only way she can create more dragons is to let Ascendants drink her blood? The Dragons (not feral, pureblood) do not get replaced by the looks of it, so when one dies, one dies...

I suspect each generation of Tiam is of less power than the last. Diluted of spirit and blood or something. But the fact is, Olar (Possibly an Elder God, if so, oldest being we've seen Veer) is the largest and most primitive. Rake and Silchas are both described as being very big, as has Osric, and they've been around longer than the Edur, and possibly the normal Andii/Liosan, though the timeline gets muddy here...
So now the CG has an undead Eleint. Sort of offsets the advantage his soletaken enemies have, if only slightly.

[L'oric]

Lisheo, on Jan 29 2009, 05:17 AM, said:

Or maybe the only way she can create more dragons is to let Ascendants drink her blood? The Dragons (not feral, pureblood) do not get replaced by the looks of it, so when one dies, one dies...

I suspect each generation of Tiam is of less power than the last. Diluted of spirit and blood or something. But the fact is, Olar (Possibly an Elder God, if so, oldest being we've seen Veer) is the largest and most primitive. Rake and Silchas are both described as being very big, as has Osric, and they've been around longer than the Edur, and possibly the normal Andii/Liosan, though the timeline gets muddy here...
So now the CG has an undead Eleint. Sort of offsets the advantage his soletaken enemies have, if only slightly.

I got the feeling from TTH that Rake chose to drink deeply from Tiam's blood and thus became more and more draconic. Much like the melding/mating of a Tiger and a Lion the Liger ends up being bigger than both. Son of Darkness + Huge dose of Tiam = Big big dragon. Tiger and cheetah probably won't be as big a combination.

So factors that I think matter most with the drinking of Tiam's blood is how much you take in and who or what you already are. I see finding Tiam much like the Soletaken ritual of the FE...just the original version of it.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well Rake is said to be more draconic than Andii so this(presumably) means that he has drunk muach of Tiam blood. However it was said that Silchas has drank muc deeply than anyone and he isn't as big as Rake. So this means that more you drink more control you have on SD.

About why Tiam's likes to die, maybe she doesn't like it. I mean:Eleint Soletaken are all powerful beings,so maybe thanks to power and lots of trickery the manage to kill her.

[Puck]

Actually it's said that Silchas is the most draconic of MD's children because he drank the deepest, while Rake consciously chose his draconic blood over his Andii blood. Would he have chosen the opposite he would look like Andarist or older.

This post has been edited by Puck: 29 January 2009 - 06:07 PM

[Grief]

I doubt control over SD has much to do with volume of tiams blood.
Sure, some probably helps, but power/general control etc obviously count too.

[Abyss]

D'rek, on Jan 25 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

amphibian, on Jan 25 2009, 03:41 PM, said:

Kallor is incredibly old. There are few mortal beings that are older than he is.

He's not *that* old. True, there are few mortal beings older than he, but since when was this series about mortal beings? If Kallor has no recollection of the Jaghut being anything more than the very few-and-far-between individuals who hole up in their towers, then he most likely wasn't around when this supposed Jaghut war-on-death came around. Kallor almost definitely rose after the Ritual of Tellann, and this Jaghut war took place before that... So yeah, he's old for a mortal, but that isn't all that relevant here. Certainly most of the Soletaken-eleint Tistes are much older than he, regardless of when they eventually came into the Malaziworld.

The Jaghut war on death took place a LOOOOOONG time ago in book time. By the time the Kallorian Empire was rolling, the Jaghut were already into their isolationist thing nd the KC were more or less extinct (ok, ok, they got better...). Also an open question whether the K'chain domination of the Jaghuts took place before or after the Death War. Given the Jaghuts relative power - Paran's compagnion in TB locked away an entire Skykeep - it seems more like the KChain showed up after the Jaghut were already broken by the Death war and thus vulnerable.

There is some lack of clarity on Kallor's Empire timing as opposed to the Imass - he claims in MoI that his Empire predates them, but if the Imass are truly precursors to humans, that seems unlikely and just his hyperbole. However, the Kallorian Empire that triggered the Fall may not have been Kallor's FIRST Empire.

How that all links in to humanity arising from the Eres, the Imass and/or the Nerek,... well... my thinkymeatz hurt...

Quote

On that bit, certainly Draconus and Osserc had access to the Malaziworld long before the Andii and Liosan did. ...

Possible, especially since it seems the Liosan only came as a race from either Osserc or Father Light at some point after Mommy D got her freak on with Light - we see this in TtH where Spin encounters al the priestesses quivering on the ground in unassisted group orgasm... the whole 'turning their backs on Mommy D' and 'Liosan legions invasions' came later. (no pun intended)

Grief, on Jan 25 2009, 05:46 PM, said:

I know, was just answering Benji.
Dragons are hard to kill.

except, of course, Orfantal

Sorry, sorry, couldn't resist...

Quote

Some of them are probably more powerful than Hood.

Raest was a Jaghut Tyrant and without his finnest, he gave four draconic soletaken and a pureblood eleint a serious fight.

Hood is a full power Jaghut and formerly some kind of racial king, oh, and he's also a god.

Skip the ho'd win - Hood wins (or, if you insist on the debate, the answer is Wolverine).

Quote

In fact, if you think about it, some of them probably have Hoods warren in their blood.
So, when you think about it, considering that True Eleint are so hard to kill, and so are powerful soletaken, its not that surprising that some of them are still powerful in Hoods realm, enough so to escape.

Hood's Warren predates the 'human' warrens, so i doubt it formed part of Krul's shaping with the dragons.
I actually doubt any dead thing can 'escape' without Hood's cooperation (Heboric, Toc) except where there's a particularly invasive passage (see Paran and the TTG in TB).

Urizen, on Jan 26 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

Cougar, on Jan 26 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

I think it is in the books somewhere but I heard it from the authour last time we saw him, it's definitley correct.

In RG Rud Ellale when listing the dragons says:

"Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The pure dragons..." from this we know that Olar is the Imass word for Dragon, as he is not listing names and he would know the Imass word as he has been hanging out with the Imass.

Tenag Iballie:

Quote

"Olar Ethil, Kilava Onas, Monok Ochem, Hentos Ilm, Tem Benasto, Ulpan Nodost, Tenag Ilbaie, Ay Estos, Absin Tholai…the bonecasters of the Logros T'lan Imass. ... Leaving Tenag Ilbaie, whom Logros sent to the Kron, to aid in the L'aederon Wars." (HoC, UK TPB, p577-578)

"'has Logros a thought as to who the renegade bonecaster might be?'
'Tenag Ilbaie,' Monoch Ochem immediatly replied. 'It is likely that he has chosen a new name.'
'And Logros is certain?'
'All other are accounted for, barring Kilava Onass'
'Born of Ban Raile's clan, a tenag soletaken. Before he was chosen as the clan's bonecaster he was known as Haran'Alle, birthed as he was in the Summer of the Great Death among the Caribou. He was a loyal bonecaster-'
'Until he failed against the Forkrul Assail in the L'aederon Wars' Monok Ochem cut in" (HoC, UK mmpb, pg784)

This demonstrates that he changed his name to reflect his soletaken form when he became a bonecaster and is a tenag whatever that is, also there is a bonecaster called Ay Estos, we know that Ay is an Imass word for a type of wolf.

Also interestingly, although I'd never say this was evidence in itself, this would mean Kilava means Panther which seems to have a potential similar root sound to the name for the prehistoric cat killed in RG which was an Emlava (sp).

Ok that seems to make sense eventhough it leads to the questions as to what kind of animal an Ulpan, a Hentos etc etc. are...

Just to throw in a rench in the reasoning and be little agrumentative (or is it annoying?), in RG we see two Benetract Bonecasters that are named Til'aras Benok and
Gr' istanas Ishi'ilm yet both are large, almost identical, bears. If the above reasoning hold true shouldn't they be called Okral or whatever name the Imass has for bear?

I suppose the key point is that Imass change their names, so even Olar Shayn may not be or have ever been a Bonecaster.

Cougar, on Jan 26 2009, 07:19 AM, said:

Well there could be lots of explanations for this; they could be different types of bear, I'd imagine that one dead bear looks similar to any other unless you are a zoologist...
I think that applying my own rule; most obvious answer is the first one although if you asked Steve I'd be surprised if he even knew who you were talking about, on the relatively limited occasions I have met him I can think of a couple of instances where he has been asked about someone in the books and he's been like "Who? What? No idea"

Inuit have like seventeen thousand words for 'snow'. Why shouldn't the Imass have different names for similar animals. Plus, SE is an anthropologist and knows that...

Grief, on Jan 27 2009, 06:49 PM, said:

Tiam was slain by Rake priot to the ritual, by my reckoning, so she is likely an ascendant in her own right.

The whole 'slain' thing is vague. We know Osserc and Scabby both sheboinged Tiam because they had kids (Shelthana, Sukul, Menandore). It's completely unclear whether the sex turned Scabby and Ossi draconic, or that they drank her blood, or they killed her, of they were in the area when she gave birth and... ew... just ew... anyways, we really don't know. Sukul mentions in MT that Tiam dies every time she gives birth. we don't actually know that anyone's ever killed her.

In MT Sandalath mentions that Korlat and others (Orfantal, etc) drank Tiam's blood after Rake. And Rake and Silch, as far as we know, don't have any draconic kids by Tiam (yes yes Nimander can go draconic any time he wants or something but he gets that from Rake).

Grief, on Jan 27 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

Though you could get tiams blood by killing others who had drunk it.
Or other eleint may do the trick.

It's implied by Iccy and Mappo in TB that drinking eleint blood does 'something'. Soletaken would be the obvious answer but then, FW told Udinass wyval blood would poison him, not turn him draconic. I know it's not the same thing, but i don't know that we can assume there's a hard and fast rule for this.

Grief, on Jan 28 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

Seen her flying around recently

Also dont we see MD having a go at Rake for killing her in a way that was somehow worse than other ways it had been done previously or something

Rake seems to be the only one who brought friends along, but other than that we don't know. Tulas Shorn went draconic SOMEhow.

Benji, on Jan 28 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 28 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

...some, like Osserc, seem to have sheboinged her, 'twould seem that the 'traditional' way of becoming a soletaken-eleint is to stab her and drink her blood (Osserc might have done both for all we know)...

Never would have placed Osserc as someone who's into S&M

It's always the quiet ones...

But we don't actually know that there is stabbing involved.

Andirak, on Jan 29 2009, 04:47 AM, said:

As I understand it most creatures avoid death, even in Wu, where dead means you're still alive. You would think she could come up with a way that avoids death, even if it's to give life. She's a freaking goddess. Or is it that thing of seeds needing to die so they can grow anew? I read that somewhere in some big book.

Consider the Azath in MT (can you tell i'm right mid MT in reread?), which died and sent a seed off in undead Kettle, which then proceeded to 'germinate' by returning her to life until Silch kindly stuck a knife in her.

Lisheo, on Jan 29 2009, 07:17 AM, said:

Or maybe the only way she can create more dragons is to let Ascendants drink her blood? The Dragons (not feral, pureblood) do not get replaced by the looks of it, so when one dies, one dies...

I suspect each generation of Tiam is of less power than the last. Diluted of spirit and blood or something. But the fact is, Olar (Possibly an Elder God, if so, oldest being we've seen Veer) is the largest and most primitive. Rake and Silchas are both described as being very big, as has Osric, and they've been around longer than the Edur, and possibly the normal Andii/Liosan, though the timeline gets muddy here...
So now the CG has an undead Eleint. Sort of offsets the advantage his soletaken enemies have, if only slightly.

I don't think there's a distinction between "feral" and "pureblood". I think feral refers to unaspected dragons (ie, not Silana or Kalse and co), while pureblood is a dragon who is not soletaken.

I would tend to agree subsequent generations are less powerful, but it's also fuzzy because, assuming the stories are true and Udinass didn't nail the myth in RG, Ossi and Rake and similar are in fact born from Mommy D - in essence, they are the children of the creator of the universe, so they're power level is as a starting point exceptional even before you get to the draconic angle. Scabby, btw, does not seem to be born by Mommy D, false Letherii Edur creation myths aside. He seems to be an ambitious Edur who got his freak on with Tiam, went draconic and then started trouble that ended with the elder warren shattering.

L'oric, on Jan 29 2009, 11:17 AM, said:

I got the feeling from TTH that Rake chose to drink deeply from Tiam's blood and thus became more and more draconic. Much like the melding/mating of a Tiger and a Lion the Liger ends up being bigger than both. Son of Darkness + Huge dose of Tiam = Big big dragon. Tiger and cheetah probably won't be as big a combination.

So factors that I think matter most with the drinking of Tiam's blood is how much you take in and who or what you already are. I see finding Tiam much like the Soletaken ritual of the FE...just the original version of it.

Sincerely,
L'oric

Yet, it seems that while Rake is more powerful, Silchas is more draconic. I suspect this goes more to state of mind than actual power... ier, Silch is more 'alien', Rake more Andii.

Also keep in mind in TtH we see a more draconic Rake in flashback than we see later. There may be a question of degree and some control over how much influence the draconic nature affects a Tiste, especially one born from Mommy D if we believe the hype.

Puck, on Jan 29 2009, 01:07 PM, said:

Actually it's said that Silchas is the most draconic of MD's children because he drank the deepest, while Rake consciously chose his draconic blood over his Andii blood. Would he have chosen the opposite he would look like Andarist or older.

We don't know whether Andarist was ever draconic, but i agree it's the draconic blood that keeps Rake younger looking. silch was stuck under a tree so there was that also at play.

- Abyss, thirsty now.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 29 January 2009 - 07:30 PM

[D'rek]

Nice and long there, Abyss. Forgot about T'iamatha dying every time she gave birth.

I think Olar Shayn's name is just a wordy name, like, say, Picker, Blend, Antsy, Mallet, Lutes, Saltlick, Squint, Pearl, Ferrule, Possum, Temper, Mudslinger, Deadsmell, Iron Bars, Cowl, Blues etc etc etc. Jimmy Shayn decided to drop his first name and start going by Dragon Shayn at some point.

If the humans can do it, why not a T'lan Imass?

This post has been edited by D'rek: 29 January 2009 - 07:51 PM

[L'oric]

"The Jaghut war on death took place a LOOOOOONG time ago in book time. By the time the Kallorian Empire was rolling, the Jaghut were already into their isolationist thing nd the KC were more or less extinct (ok, ok, they got better...). Also an open question whether the K'chain domination of the Jaghuts took place before or after the Death War. Given the Jaghuts relative power - Paran's compagnion in TB locked away an entire Skykeep - it seems more like the KChain showed up after the Jaghut were already broken by the Death war and thus vulnerable.

There is some lack of clarity on Kallor's Empire timing as opposed to the Imass - he claims in MoI that his Empire predates them, but if the Imass are truly precursors to humans, that seems unlikely and just his hyperbole. However, the Kallorian Empire that triggered the Fall may not have been Kallor's FIRST Empire.

How that all links in to humanity arising from the Eres, the Imass and/or the Nerek,... well... my thinkymeatz hurt...-Abyss"

I think it more likely that the KCCM were as to the Jhags what the Jhags were to the Imass. That is at least what one of the characters in the series concludes. So after decimating the KCCM (who did the same thing to the dragons) they become rulers of the world and then go after Death itself because there is nothing left to do. Some dragons join the cause and most are destroyed but death is "conquered" by being replaced. Imass take advantage and rebel.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Epiph]

Abyss, on Jan 29 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

Inuit have like seventeen thousand words for 'snow'. Why shouldn't the Imass have different names for similar animals. Plus, SE is an anthropologist and knows that...

Not actually true. They have 32 words for demonstrative pronouns, but actually fewer words for snow than English. (Thank you, QI).

This post has been edited by Epiph: 29 January 2009 - 10:53 PM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Where are the KCCM in the scheme of dragons?

[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 30 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

Where are the KCCM in the scheme of dragons?

Nowhere? Why are you asking?

AIJ when you make these question posts of yours, please elaborate. It's impossible to answer something when your don't understand the reference.

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 30 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

Where are the KCCM in the scheme of dragons?

Isn't it said somewhere( one of the latter books) that the KCCM are the first children of the dragons?

[Grief]

Yes it is.
I believe this is of the True eleint as opposed to soletaken though?

[Cougar]

The KCCM are just said to be the first born of Dragons, that would logically mean true Dragons since in all likeliehood the children of soletaken are soletaken, or just the original race.

[Grief]

Aye, for example rud elalle, nimander, etc.

Soletaken don't have KCCM.

Unless I suppose a soletaken KCCM...

Also, out of interest, "firstborn". Do we know if there are others about.
Or why dragons don't have dragons as children, as one would think. Or if they do, how did the KCCM come about?

[Puck]

Grief, on Jan 30 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

Also, out of interest, "firstborn". Do we know if there are others about.

[Feather Witch] '[...] Wyval are spawn of the Eleint. They are the mongrels of the dragons, and even the dragons do not control them. They are of the Hold, yet feral.'
[MT, mmpb, p. 126]

Loqui Wyval. That is our name. Spawn of Starvald Demelain, the squalid children whom none would claim as their own. We are as flies spreading across a rotting feast, one realm after another. D'isthal Wyvalla, Enkar'al, Trol, we are a plague of demons in a thousand pantheons.
[MT, mmpb, p. 208]

Seems like yes, there are others. They came into being after the KCCM, I think.

The 'as flies spreading across a rotting feast, one realm after another'-bit reminds me of the KCCN/KCCM, too, though. But 'real' dragons seem to do that too, fly through every realm.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Urizen, on Jan 30 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 30 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

Where are the KCCM in the scheme of dragons?

Isn't it said somewhere( one of the latter books) that the KCCM are the first children of the dragons?

That's what I meant, yes.

Maybe the KCCM are related to dragons in the Moranth-Barghast sense. Or perhaps they were doing the dragons dirty work in the mortal realm outside of Starvald Demelain.