[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'm sorry but the KCCN were in the continent of Lether. Scabby mentions them fighting with the Long-tails in the floating fortresses . In fact KCCN evolved from KCCM in (I assume) every continent but they rebelled in Genabackis.

[Aptorian]

The Naruk(sp?) were an earlier generation of the KCCM. The Matrons, for some stupid reason we don't know, decided it was a good idea to bring them back, so they reverse engineered them. The Naruk are the KCCM forefathers.

@ puck

Yeah, that thing about the broke leg imass turning into an undead down there rings true. I think you have it right.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Well about the Imass becoming a T'lan in the Mines was the idea I had got also thanks to his conversation with Harllo. But then in his flashback Raest calls him T'lan and not Imas as he should've done if the Ritual hadn't already been stared. And I still don't understand why Raest would've simply broke the Imass legs so I believed he couldn't kill him because he was already undead.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 17 January 2009 - 07:28 PM

[Aptorian]

Raest is a Jaghut Tyrant. He could have destroyed him with ease. Raest was just being a dick, Jaghut thrive on beings dicks.

[Puck]

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

The Naruk(sp?) were an earlier generation of the KCCM. The Matrons, for some stupid reason we don't know, decided it was a good idea to bring them back, so they reverse engineered them. The Naruk are the KCCM forefathers.

Does someone know which book this is stated in or hinted at? To ease my confusion

[Aptorian]

Kallors lecture on the KCCM when he, Silverfox I think and some of the Malazans are examining a pit filled with old KCCM bones that I believe KB and B unearthed.

It's in MoI.

[D'rek]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Jan 17 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

Well about the Imass becoming a T'lan in the Mines was the idea I had got also thanks to his conversation with Harllo. But then in his flashback Raest calls him T'lan and not Imas as he should've done if the Ritual hadn't already been stared. And I still don't understand why Raest would've simply broke the Imass legs so I believed he couldn't kill him because he was already undead.

That being said, Pran Chole first introduced himself (when he was still an alive Imass) as a Tlann Imass, saying he would soon become a T'lann Imass, to Kruppe in GotM. Weird...

[Sinisdar Toste]

well tellann was their warren no? maybe it was just a common abbreviation applied to all of the people of tellann

[Ain't_It_Just_]

But no-one else used Tellann...wouldn't it have been simpler to use Imass?

[Aptorian]

In GotM they are often referred to as the T'lann. Not Imass. Probably Erikson came to a new conclusion of their names and their meanings.

As far as we can tell the ' in names refers to a brake. T'lann being an abbreviation of Tellan meaning that the T'lan Imass broke themselves in the ritual.

[Benji]

I thought that the guttural stop meant that they were undead? I vaguely recall something like that being said in MoI against the K'ell Hunters

[The Drum]

On the 'arrival' on the KCCM, i thought they were indigenous to the planet as in RG their seed' came from the sea and infected/mutated some of the people.
This to me meant that they were probably the first species to leave the oceans in some form?

[Aptorian]

You wrote that on the other page aswell, I'm guessing you didn't read my reply

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 07:38 PM, said:

@ Drum

The KCCM use the sea to spawn. That doesn't mean that they can't come from a different world with other seas, or that they existed so long on Wu that they evolved to become a seaspawning race. Keep in mind that RG suggests that the KCCM are the firstborn (or something) of Dragons.

[The Drum]

Aptorian, on Jan 18 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

You wrote that on the other page aswell, I'm guessing you didn't read my reply

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 07:38 PM, said:

@ Drum

The KCCM use the sea to spawn. That doesn't mean that they can't come from a different world with other seas, or that they existed so long on Wu that they evolved to become a seaspawning race. Keep in mind that RG suggests that the KCCM are the firstborn (or something) of Dragons.

Whoops, sorry Apt, i think i may be slowly loseing my mind. i blame my age. #picks up walking stick and shuffles off to put the kettle on#

[Imperial Historian]

RE: the timeline of the ritual

The ritual took place shortly after the death or raest, and at least part of it would seem to have occured in that region.

Pran Chole is pursuing a jaghut who had aided in the imprisonment of raest, and talks about the ritual which is soon to start. Since we're not entirely sure how the magic of the ritual works, it is possible that the imass with the broken legs was in range of the other imass and so could become t'lan along with them. I'm pretty sure it's stated he's imass when knocked about by raest, but I don't have my books with me.

Re: The k'chain, are almost certainly from another planet (the n'ahruk evolved in a lower gravity field), probably the moon, this is possibly a warren in itself, (see the cedas ramblings on the subject in MT).

Re assail and jaghut... the assail are definitely native to malaz, the assails comments in MT that he is not a demon (a demon is a being summoned for another warren) suggesting the assails are a native species. The jaghut are probably a native species as well from the same root stock (assail and jaghut are described with slight similarities suggesting a common root in my mind, though that isn't concrete), jhenna refers to the stormriders as being from another world in Nok, but there isn't a suggestion that the jaghut are from that same world as far as I recall.

Re: imass and eres, there is a conversation between trull and onrack in HoC when they discuss the eres, they are definitely a predecessor of the imass, I suspect they both claim a common ancestor similar to neanderthals and humans.

[D'rek]

Great stuff IH!

The Drum said:

On the 'arrival' on the KCCM, i thought they were indigenous to the planet as in RG their seed' came from the sea and infected/mutated some of the people.
This to me meant that they were probably the first species to leave the oceans in some form?

Twilight has a passage in there where she muses on how that could've come about, and she seems fairly knowledgeable about the KCCM and such. She theorizes that the K'chain babies originally seeded/grew in the "oceans" of their mothers (Matrons or just females in general), and that after the wars with the Tistes, the seedlings/sperm/babies/whatever quickly adapted to living/fermenting/whatever in the seas themselves. Maybe there was a juicy matron full of heaving oceans and K'spunk that got her belly sliced open in the water or something like that...

Imperial Historian, on Jan 18 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

RE: the timeline of the ritual

The ritual took place shortly after the death or raest, and at least part of it would seem to have occured in that region.

Pran Chole is pursuing a jaghut who had aided in the imprisonment of raest, and talks about the ritual which is soon to start. Since we're not entirely sure how the magic of the ritual works, it is possible that the imass with the broken legs was in range of the other imass and so could become t'lan along with them. I'm pretty sure it's stated he's imass when knocked about by raest, but I don't have my books with me.

I guess that could work. Need someone to find that passage of Raest breaking Devan's legs again from TtH (I still don't yet have that book permanently). I imagine these events would have to be ridiculously close chronologically for Devan to survive long enough to be immortalized at the bottom of a mine shaft. And it's still a little bit weird that Raest called him T'lan(n), but I suppose Raest knew what the Imass were planning to do and so it was a bit of pre-emptive name-calling (Raest being an even bigger dick, breaking the legs of someone about to turn immortal. That's awesome!)

Additionally it seems a bit strange the Imass would turn against the Jaghut helping them before they were done with Raest (and it would seem they pursued the one in the MoI prologue for quite a while), but I guess it's the only explanation...

Imperial Historian, on Jan 18 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

Re assail and jaghut... the assail are definitely native to malaz, the assails comments in MT that he is not a demon (a demon is a being summoned for another warren) suggesting the assails are a native species. The jaghut are probably a native species as well from the same root stock (assail and jaghut are described with slight similarities suggesting a common root in my mind, though that isn't concrete), jhenna refers to the stormriders as being from another world in Nok, but there isn't a suggestion that the jaghut are from that same world as far as I recall.

Someone (Edgewalker I think) says that the Stormriders remind him of the Jaghut in some way, but that could just be because they're cold and icy. Someone else (Agayla I think) quests towards them and finds an icy core of other-worldliness deep below the sea beneath the Riders and that seems to be their heart/source/thingamajig.

[Aptorian]

It was said somewhere, probably NoK, that the Jaghut accidentally brought them to Wu when they did some OP mojo.

Jhenna, the jaghut from NoK, speaks of OP as home. The Icethrone lies in OP and borders on death.

I remember that the connection between FAs and Jaghut is the fact that Jaghut apparently have weird multijointed thumbs.

[D'rek]

Yes, Jaghut are described as having too many joints in DG before we've met any FA...

[Epiph]

Imperial Historian, on Jan 18 2009, 09:46 AM, said:

Re: imass and eres, there is a conversation between trull and onrack in HoC when they discuss the eres, they are definitely a predecessor of the imass, I suspect they both claim a common ancestor similar to neanderthals and humans.

I got from that conversation that, if modern Malaziworld humans are the equivalent of homo sapiens sapien, then eres were homo erectus, homo habilis or possibly even an australopithecus, and the imass were like homo neanderthalensis.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Ahh...Jaghut alos have extra joints. This explains why Kilmandaros looks more like Toblakai than anything else.