[The Drum]

I'm a little confussed as to the arrival of certain species on Wu, so can someone clear a few things up for me. Who actually inhabited the world first? |Who followed in what order and who arrived Wu via warren (Tiste Andii etc) and when exactly did they arrive.

What i can't figure out is who came first (I said stop it! )

Did it the K'chan inhabit or did they arrive, were the Jaghut there first or did they evolce together? When did the E'resal appear and were they around before the Imass?

Thanks.

[Aptorian]

We don't know really because there isn't any in depth accounts of the Elder Times.

Most likely The KCCM, Jaghut and maybe even FAs are alien beings that came from their own warrens/realms.

So far the three oldest contenders are Deragoth, Eres'al and Tel Akai.

The Deragoth ruled 7C before the KCCM arrived and the Eres'al ran with them in a form of pack relationship.

The oldest Wu people we know is probably the Tel Akai, who Ereko claim to be half as old as the mountains, what ever that means. Ereko was probably some place between 500.000 and a million years old.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Okay.
I believe the KCCM were the first race in Malazan since in MoI Silverfox says that KCCM threated first jaghuts like the jaghuts threated the first Imass.FA should be contemporary of the Jaghuts since Brood said they were always(still are) clashing. Then came the Imass.
The first Tiste were the Andiis that came with Rake probably soon after MD turned away. The other Andiis and the Edurs guided by Ruin and Scabby arrived when all four Malazan races already existed and the KCCM were already dying.
So:
KCCM
Jaghuts and FA
Imass
Arrival of Rake
Other Andiis and Edurs.

The problem are the Eres. Before HoC we believed that humans are direct descendants of the Imass. But then the Eres joined the equation. I believe that they are the first descendants of the Imass, being primordial humans.
Thus:
KCCM
Jaghuts and FA
Imass
Arrival of Rake
Other Andiis and Edurs
Eres

[The Drum]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Jan 16 2009, 03:55 PM, said:

Okay.
I believe the KCCM were the first race in Malazan since in MoI Silverfox says that KCCM threated first jaghuts like the jaghuts threated the first Imass.FA should be contemporary of the Jaghuts since Brood said they were always(still are) clashing. Then came the Imass.
The first Tiste were the Andiis that came with Rake probably soon after MD turned away. The other Andiis and the Edurs guided by Ruin and Scabby arrived when all four Malazan races already existed and the KCCM were already dying.
So:
KCCM
Jaghuts and FA
Imass
Arrival of Rake
Other Andiis and Edurs.

The problem are the Eres. Before HoC we believed that humans are direct descendants of the Imass. But then the Eres joined the equation. I believe that they are the first descendants of the Imass, being primordial humans.
Thus:
KCCM
Jaghuts and FA
Imass
Arrival of Rake
Other Andiis and Edurs
Eres

I don't know why but i thought the Eres came earlier as i equal the KCCM to dinosaurs and Eres as early man, maybe the Imass were like neandathol man(sp) in our history but survived and evolved

Thus:
KCCM
Eres/Imass
etc
etc

I maybe well out there though

This post has been edited by The Drum: 16 January 2009 - 04:04 PM

[Aptorian]

Ereko claims that the Tel Akai are Burns first children, which I will bet means they were her first attempt at creating humanoid sentients that were capable of becomming a civilised culture.

More likely the first intelligent beings came out of the seas. So the first races would be various semi or fully inteligent beasts among them the Deragoth and Togg and Fancies races. Are T&F just Ay or are they primodial Ay? I think they are oooold but it could be they just became gods when creatures like the Eres'al and Imass began worshipping them.

Then there's the Azath who are semi-sentient cosmic constructs and the dragons who seem to have existed for ever and exist everywhere. The Azath and the Dragons can't really be dated they just are.

So something like this

Dragons
Azath
Tel Akai
Deragoth
Eres'al
Jaghut
Forkrul Assail
KCCM
TTT
Imass
Andii
Edur
Liosan

Then comes all the younger races, which I wont bother to list because they confuse the hell out of me.

[Benji]

I would say that it's Thel Akai first. Then probably Deragoth, followed shortly by Eres'al. Then KCCM, Jaghut and Imass with FA somewhere between. Dragons would be coming in by warren, probably around the same time as the Tiste races.

[D'rek]

The problem is that a lot of the races seem to have developed sperately from the others, either in their own realms or just seperated by continents. The Deragoth and Eres developed on 7C and the KCCM never colonized there because of the Deragoth, but how can you say which came first? I would think it took a while before the KCCM had mastered flying mountains, maybe even enough time for the Deragoth to begin as a race and spread across 7C. Thus you can't really say which came first.

For some races, there is the additional factor that they probably evolved over time, like the Eres from monkeys, the Imass from the Eres, etc. Other races that are the product of prior races may have their first beings rather early, but it could take time for them to catch on as a race. These would be the TTT from the Tel Akai, the humans from the Imass, Barghast from the TTT+Imass, Trell, Jhag and maybe even the Edur.

So anyway, I would list it as:

} MD (melds out of chaos)
} Creationist gods (ie Tiam, FL, also meld out of chaos, maybe assisted by MD)
} EGs (K'rul, Drac, etc... before they were gods they had to be something. probably assisted in melding out of chaos by MD)

*Starvald Demelain created* (the first realm)

-Dragons (in SD)

*Malaziworld created*

-Tel Akai (born/created in the Malaziworld)
-Fist KCCM-Nah'ruk born (Malaziworld)
-Deragoth (created in some freaky way, starting on 7C)
-First Jaghut either born in MW or first ones to arrive in Malaziworld
-First Forkrul Assail born (somewhere)
-KCCM done evolving from the Nah'ruk

-Eres have evolved from monkey to a significant point on 7C
-Jaghut numerically proficient enough to not be enslaved by KCCM anymore (they go wage war on death for shits and giggles)
-TTT numerical enough to be a race at this point

*KG created*
-First TA born
*KT created*
-First TL born

-Imass more or less finished evolving from the Eres

*KG and KT unsealed* (Andii meet daddy, Liosan meet mommy, everyone meets the Tiste)
*KE created*
-First TE born

*First Tiste invasions of the Malaziworld

*Ritual of Tellann

*KT sealed, KL created* (Liosan barely ever heard from again)

-Rise of humans (now beyond the first few hundred prototypes) (Malaziworld)

[Seguleh 1st]

timeline? we dont need no stinking timeline!

[Onos]

D'rek, on Jan 16 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

The problem is that a lot of the races seem to have developed sperately from the others, either in their own realms or just seperated by continents. The Deragoth and Eres developed on 7C and the KCCM never colonized there because of the Deragoth, but how can you say which came first? I would think it took a while before the KCCM had mastered flying mountains, maybe even enough time for the Deragoth to begin as a race and spread across 7C. Thus you can't really say which came first.

For some races, there is the additional factor that they probably evolved over time, like the Eres from monkeys, the Imass from the Eres, etc. Other races that are the product of prior races may have their first beings rather early, but it could take time for them to catch on as a race. These would be the TTT from the Tel Akai, the humans from the Imass, Barghast from the TTT+Imass, Trell, Jhag and maybe even the Edur.

So anyway, I would list it as:

} MD (melds out of chaos)
} Creationist gods (ie Tiam, FL, also meld out of chaos, maybe assisted by MD)
} EGs (K'rul, Drac, etc... before they were gods they had to be something. probably assisted in melding out of chaos by MD)

*Starvald Demelain created* (the first realm)

-Dragons (in SD)

*Malaziworld created*

-Tel Akai (born/created in the Malaziworld)
-Fist KCCM-Nah'ruk born (Malaziworld)
-Deragoth (created in some freaky way, starting on 7C)
-First Jaghut either born in MW or first ones to arrive in Malaziworld
-First Forkrul Assail born (somewhere)
-KCCM done evolving from the Nah'ruk

-Eres have evolved from monkey to a significant point on 7C
-Jaghut numerically proficient enough to not be enslaved by KCCM anymore (they go wage war on death for shits and giggles)
-TTT numerical enough to be a race at this point

*KG created*
-First TA born
*KT created*
-First TL born

-Imass more or less finished evolving from the Eres

*KG and KT unsealed* (Andii meet daddy, Liosan meet mommy, everyone meets the Tiste)
*KE created*
-First TE born

*First Tiste invasions of the Malaziworld

*Ritual of Tellann

*KT sealed, KL created* (Liosan barely ever heard from again)

-Rise of humans (now beyond the first few hundred prototypes) (Malaziworld)

I thought the impression was the KCCM and Naruk came from somewhere else to colonize WU.

Tel Akai are the oldest Native Wuians. (based on Erekos comment they are burns first children...)

Deragoth seem so powerful it makes me wonder if they didnt appear from another world. This could have happened before the last two points.
Impression is Eres sort of developped on their own... then teamed up with the Deragoth.

Jaghut either came to Wu from their warren after KCCM show or developed then. Makes me wonder... the Jaghut attacked death with legions upon legions. But on Wu they were described as being few and having only one city at one point. Makes me think only the remnants showed up on Wu since they must have been awesome powerful as a race at some point.

Forkrul show up or are created shortly after Jaghut.

Rake shows up.
2nd wave of Andii.

Imass start to form out of Eres. TTTs come about from Tel Akai. Other mixed races such as the Trell/Jhag come around.

After ritual non ritualites Imass turn into modern humans and barghast (along with some TTT input)

[The Drum]

D'rek, on Jan 16 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

The problem is that a lot of the races seem to have developed sperately from the others, either in their own realms or just seperated by continents. The Deragoth and Eres developed on 7C and the KCCM never colonized there because of the Deragoth, but how can you say which came first? I would think it took a while before the KCCM had mastered flying mountains, maybe even enough time for the Deragoth to begin as a race and spread across 7C. Thus you can't really say which came first.

For some races, there is the additional factor that they probably evolved over time, like the Eres from monkeys, the Imass from the Eres, etc. Other races that are the product of prior races may have their first beings rather early, but it could take time for them to catch on as a race. These would be the TTT from the Tel Akai, the humans from the Imass, Barghast from the TTT+Imass, Trell, Jhag and maybe even the Edur.

So anyway, I would list it as:

} MD (melds out of chaos)
} Creationist gods (ie Tiam, FL, also meld out of chaos, maybe assisted by MD)
} EGs (K'rul, Drac, etc... before they were gods they had to be something. probably assisted in melding out of chaos by MD)

*Starvald Demelain created* (the first realm)

-Dragons (in SD)

*Malaziworld created*

-Tel Akai (born/created in the Malaziworld)
-Fist KCCM-Nah'ruk born (Malaziworld)
-Deragoth (created in some freaky way, starting on 7C)
-First Jaghut either born in MW or first ones to arrive in Malaziworld
-First Forkrul Assail born (somewhere)
-KCCM done evolving from the Nah'ruk

-Eres have evolved from monkey to a significant point on 7C
-Jaghut numerically proficient enough to not be enslaved by KCCM anymore (they go wage war on death for shits and giggles)
-TTT numerical enough to be a race at this point

*KG created*
-First TA born
*KT created*
-First TL born

-Imass more or less finished evolving from the Eres

*KG and KT unsealed* (Andii meet daddy, Liosan meet mommy, everyone meets the Tiste)
*KE created*
-First TE born

*First Tiste invasions of the Malaziworld

*Ritual of Tellann

*KT sealed, KL created* (Liosan barely ever heard from again)

-Rise of humans (now beyond the first few hundred prototypes) (Malaziworld)

Muchas Gracias D'rek. that makes things clearer.

I thought that the Tiste arrived earlier cos they fought the KCCM when Sicias was betrayed.and as Onos just posted Rake arrived even earlier.

This post has been edited by The Drum: 16 January 2009 - 10:40 PM

[D'rek]

Thats the thing right? A lot of things seem to happen at once, so while the Deragoth are lording over 7C, who knows what the Jaghut, FA and KCCM were up to on the other continents...

There's a lot of annoyances when trying to map out this stuff, and really, each race tends to be annoying in its own unique way:

-> The Jaghut are annoying because they are always few and isolated in the MW, and were supposedly enslaved by the KCCM (not necessarily always and not necessarily a lot of them were), but they were also supposedly present in their millions to fight Death at some point too.
-> The Forkrul are annoying because everyone says there's always fewer and fewer of them, but they had plenty of numbers to fight in the Just Wars with the Liosan, and to be killed en-mass by the Errant after the rise of humans, Trell and other more mortal races.
-> The KCCM are annoying because they could "keep the EGs from coming to the MW", but everyone knows the EGs and they are involved with the MW very early. My supposed solution is the EGs could come to the MW until the KCCM arrived and then not until the KCCM were much weakened.
-> The Imass are annoying because they seem to have spread to every continent (especially Lether, full of KCCM and invading Tistes), and yet have so little involvement in anything until after the Ritual. And the Ritual has all sorts of varied and conflicting times. Most especially there is Raest lording over mortal Imass in GotM and then beating up T'lans in TtH.
-> The TTT are annoying because they don't seem to have done anything.
-> The Andii are annoying because they think they're so damn old, but even Rake is only 300k years old apparently. (MD joined the create-a-race bandwagon pretty late after all)
-> The Liosan are annoying because they're pretentious bums.
-> The Edur are annoying for their lack of creation stories to speculate upon.
-> The humans are annoying because we still don't even know from when and whom they evolved/grew/exploded from.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'm assuming that humans were around before Burn's Sleep...but they would have been primitive indeed.

Maybe some sort of fish came first, for all we know...

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Forkrul are annoying because everyone says there's always fewer and fewer of them, but they had plenty of numbers to fight in the Just Wars with the Liosan, and to be killed en-mass by the Errant after the rise of humans, Trell and other more mortal races.

These events took place in the elder times. In the elder times they had cities and everything, just like the Jaghut... and KCCM for that matter.

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The KCCM are annoying because they could "keep the EGs from coming to the MW", but everyone knows the EGs and they are involved with the MW very early. My supposed solution is the EGs could come to the MW until the KCCM arrived and then not until the KCCM were much weakened.

My theory is that Wu existed for millions of years without Elder Gods, who only came along for the ride when Mother Dark brought the elementals out to play when she created the Tiste Worlds. Wu exists in a seperate universer from the Tiste plains of existance.

So there were Jaghut and Forkrul assail who did a lot of fighting just for the hell of it. Then one day came the KCCM from a different world and invaded Wu, enslaving weakened Jaghut, driving the FA away, etc.

Only problem with the alien KCCM theory is the dinoskeletons Urko is digging up. But who knows maybe these were purely unintelligent lizards.

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Imass are annoying because they seem to have spread to every continent (especially Lether, full of KCCM and invading Tistes), and yet have so little involvement in anything until after the Ritual. And the Ritual has all sorts of varied and conflicting times. Most especially there is Raest lording over mortal Imass in GotM and then beating up T'lans in TtH.

The Imass began their war as mortals and they were winning. They killed "most of the Jaghut" that could be easily sought out and weren't crazy powerlevel strong.

Then the Jaghut grew desperat and they began the iceages that killed off the Imass crops and prey and made traversing continents and braving the seas impossible.

That's when they did the ritual.

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The TTT are annoying because they don't seem to have done anything.

I think they had their hight of civilization during the age of the Jaghut and FA, and their civilizations may also have been failing when the Tiste arrived. They had cities and steel armor back then, then came the madness in their blood and they were isolated so that they could fall to rise again.

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Andii are annoying because they think they're so damn old, but even Rake is only 300k years old apparently. (MD joined the create-a-race bandwagon pretty late after all)

Rake could be a million years for all we know. The Tiste exodus probably happened around 400.000 before BS. The Andii could have existed for a million years before that in Darkness. If we can believe the myths, Rake is among the first Andii. He is ooooooold.

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The humans are annoying because we still don't even know from when and whom they evolved/grew/exploded from.

I think it is pretty clear that humans evolved directly from the Imass. The other young races are the product of Imass sheboinging other races... slutty mammals that they are.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'd LOVE to know how the Napans came to be...

[Aptorian]

An imass raped a smurf

[HoosierDaddy]

The humans came from the Imass who didn't join in the ritual. In fact, the other T'lan refer to them (I believe in MOI) as Kilava's children.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Forkrul are annoying because everyone says there's always fewer and fewer of them, but they had plenty of numbers to fight in the Just Wars with the Liosan, and to be killed en-mass by the Errant after the rise of humans, Trell and other more mortal races.

These events took place in the elder times. In the elder times they had cities and everything, just like the Jaghut... and KCCM for that matter.

The FA waging war on the Errant for his anti-stagnation bit had to have been within 300k years from the present, during the time of the FE probably. He had human and Trell worshippers (and another one I forgot). It's just weird that there were still enough FA to do such a thing around that time (Udinaas sees a field covered in FA bodies from the Errant killing them in RG).

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The KCCM are annoying because they could "keep the EGs from coming to the MW", but everyone knows the EGs and they are involved with the MW very early. My supposed solution is the EGs could come to the MW until the KCCM arrived and then not until the KCCM were much weakened.

My theory is that Wu existed for millions of years without Elder Gods, who only came along for the ride when Mother Dark brought the elementals out to play when she created the Tiste Worlds. Wu exists in a seperate universer from the Tiste plains of existance.

So there were Jaghut and Forkrul assail who did a lot of fighting just for the hell of it. Then one day came the KCCM from a different world and invaded Wu, enslaving weakened Jaghut, driving the FA away, etc.

Only problem with the alien KCCM theory is the dinoskeletons Urko is digging up. But who knows maybe these were purely unintelligent lizards.

(RotCG prologue)

Spoiler

Draconus confronts Denuth in what appears to be the Malaziworld and it would seem this is long, long ago. Supposedly in the Elder Age of Time Unmeasured or some such. Gives me the impression this is before races like the KCCM or Jaghut were in the Malaziworld

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Imass are annoying because they seem to have spread to every continent (especially Lether, full of KCCM and invading Tistes), and yet have so little involvement in anything until after the Ritual. And the Ritual has all sorts of varied and conflicting times. Most especially there is Raest lording over mortal Imass in GotM and then beating up T'lans in TtH.

The Imass began their war as mortals and they were winning. They killed "most of the Jaghut" that could be easily sought out and weren't crazy powerlevel strong.

Then the Jaghut grew desperat and they began the iceages that killed off the Imass crops and prey and made traversing continents and braving the seas impossible.

That's when they did the ritual.

By the MoI prologue, they did the ritual shortly after wiping out the Jaghut from Genebackis. And yet, in TtH, the broken-legged T'lan Imass recalls Raest breaking his legs when he was already a T'lan. And all this had to happen after the Tiste Invasions...

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The TTT are annoying because they don't seem to have done anything.

I think they had their hight of civilization during the age of the Jaghut and FA, and their civilizations may also have been failing when the Tiste arrived. They had cities and steel armor back then, then came the madness in their blood and they were isolated so that they could fall to rise again.

Yeah, seems about right. Just weird that we never really hear much about their civilization, and the only lasting bit we do have is the Seregahl on Lether, where just about everything else seems to happen too...

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The Andii are annoying because they think they're so damn old, but even Rake is only 300k years old apparently. (MD joined the create-a-race bandwagon pretty late after all)

Rake could be a million years for all we know. The Tiste exodus probably happened around 400.000 before BS. The Andii could have existed for a million years before that in Darkness. If we can believe the myths, Rake is among the first Andii. He is ooooooold.

I thought it said his age somewhere that he was 3 or 4 hundred thousand. Oh well, maybe that's just Baruk estimating poorly.

Aptorian, on Jan 17 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

D'rek, on Jan 17 2009, 07:13 AM, said:

-> The humans are annoying because we still don't even know from when and whom they evolved/grew/exploded from.

I think it is pretty clear that humans evolved directly from the Imass. The other young races are the product of Imass sheboinging other races... slutty mammals that they are.

Well yes, that is indeed clear... but how? Do they really *all* descend from Kilava, as Dryjhna claims? Evidently they're not descended from the boat-faring Imass who missed the ritual... they became the Barghast...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 17 January 2009 - 04:46 PM

[The Drum]

I thought in RG that it was said that the KCCM came from the sea and that some people give birth to babies with KCCM traits. That to me suggests that the KCCM are indigenous to Wu and could have been the first race to leave water for land?

[Aptorian]

@ drek

The FA have mostly gone extinct on wu but it doesn't mean they don't exist in small enclaves and hidden cities or in unknown magical realms for that matter. I believe there is some hint that the FA's cities may be placed under ground, no? When the FA go to war a dozen of them can kill a thousand opponents. It's not unlikely that the Just Wars were like the Jaghut Wars. Thousands and thousands of Liosan vs a small band of pissed of FA.

As for the RCG prologue. It takes place in the elder times, perhaps on Wu perhaps not. It is hard to make a guess at when. But consider the fact that Osserc attacked that Azath with a whole bunch of companions. My guess is that there were plenty of powers and civilizations loose on Wu at the time. Consider also that the name of Anomander Rake was known then, which to me suggest that this event might have been back when Rake had completed the first Tiste exodus to wu.

As for Raest and the ritual... the timeline is broken, broken, broken. My theory makes sense, so I'll stick to it

About humans and Kilava. I think it might be a creation myth, like Eva giving birth to man, yet when they leave the garden all kinds of tribes or what ever already exists on earth. Most likely Kilava became the mother of a tribe of humans that came to populate/dominate.. uhm... 7C was it?

@ Drum

The KCCM use the sea to spawn. That doesn't mean that they can't come from a different world with other seas, or that they existed so long on Wu that they evolved to become a seaspawning race. Keep in mind that RG suggests that the KCCM are the firstborn (or something) of Dragons.

[Puck]

I always thought the KCCN were created by the KCCM and then rebelled, not the other way round.. Anyways, as far as I remenber there weren't any KCCN on Lether, only on Genabackis, were the K'Chain Che'all-of-them had a nice civil war, while on Lether they were attacked by the Tiste envading the malazan world.

What too confuses me is that the KCCM are supposed to have cursed Mother Dark in order to annihilate all existence. It's said in MT that the KCCM sent their sorcery into the warren of MD, thus sealing the gate from KG to every other realm and driving MD 'into the very core of the Abyss'. MD/Darkness is said to be something like the core/beginning of all existence [which, on the other hand, could very likely be, since the TE believe that the deep seas and oceans belong to Darkness and her children. Maybe the KCCM really emerged from the seas, which would make Darkness the beginning of all existence]. I wonder whether this cursing MD is related to MD turning away from her children.
Could be all just fantasies though, since it's told in TE legends.

And there sould have been quite many FA at some point in history to built their strange underground cities, since as far as we know they didn't own slaves.

Well, now I've confused myself... O_o


Edit: as for Raest and the lone T'lan Imass.. I remember reading that the Imass was thrown down into the crevasse or whatever while still alive, survived the fall and before he actually died of starvation he noted that he had become.. undead? Not sure there, though..

This post has been edited by Puck: 17 January 2009 - 07:10 PM