Help
I've read MoI at least 5 times now, and this is one of the few thing that i haven't figured out at all.
What exactly happened between Stonny Menackis and the Seerdomin she killed?
Am I missing something really obvious?
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FKA Icarium
In a game of patience, the mortal is ever at a disadvantage...
What did that Seerdomin do to Stonny?
#5 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:20 PM
That part struck me as odd too. It seemed... weird... for the seerdomin to have the urge to do that. Maybe I wasn't reading into their motives enough, I don't know. I just assumed he'd rather just kill her than rape her.
#6
Illuyankas 
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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:42 PM
Perhaps she interrupted him before he could kill her afterwards, by killing him.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#7 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:28 PM
But why did he do it in the first place? Was it to inflict terror? Assert his dominance? Fulfill sexual desire? None of those seem likely motives for a Seerdomin (against an individual, that is), as I understood the Pannions...
#8
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:38 PM
the seerdomin weren't all emotionless killing machines, remember. there was Toc's buddy, who seemed like a nice guy. and by the same coin, some are rapists.
even without considering that it's totally plausible that (any) soldiers violently sacking a city would rape women. the only surprising thing is that she survived it.
I can't see how people didn't didn't get this scene.
even without considering that it's totally plausible that (any) soldiers violently sacking a city would rape women. the only surprising thing is that she survived it.
I can't see how people didn't didn't get this scene.
#9 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:29 AM
I understand what happens when soldiers attack a city. I just didn't see it from the Pannions.
#10
Illuyankas
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 12:57 AM
Probably because they were starving. Food first, rape later. Besides, for those who want to rape people, they have the Tenescowri to raid. Also, well, too much talk of rape 1) would detract from the impact of Stonny's scene, and 2) feel really unpleasant, personally.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#11
Trotts
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 03:38 AM
why wouldnt the seerdomin? knowing stonny she fought hard, but the seerdomin managed to subdue her, and what better way to humiliate her then by raping her? its a sign of dominance and power
#12
tiam
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 07:05 AM
Yeh that makes sense. I t seems people do not understand the way the victors can do what they want. They just rape and pillage its wat victorios armies do no matter if they are religous zealots or not
#13 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 07 February 2006 - 01:17 PM
No no no. You're not understanding me. Rape and pillage was not a motivation for the Pannion Domin as I understood it, especially at that point in the novel. Slaughter was the only motivation, as was my understanding. Try to follow me here:
That the Seerdomin should wish to assert dominance or power struck me (and still does) as out of character. I may be wrong, but that's how I read it. I just saw the only motivation, at all, as slaughter. No rape, no pillage, just death and destruction.
What I'm arguing is that I don't see the Seerdomin as having human urges or motivations that can be likened to anything on this world. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's only about the Seerdomin. I'm not so bloody stupid that I don't understand what happens in war with regular human beings in the real world. Again, please try to actually understand my issue with this...
That the Seerdomin should wish to assert dominance or power struck me (and still does) as out of character. I may be wrong, but that's how I read it. I just saw the only motivation, at all, as slaughter. No rape, no pillage, just death and destruction.
What I'm arguing is that I don't see the Seerdomin as having human urges or motivations that can be likened to anything on this world. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's only about the Seerdomin. I'm not so bloody stupid that I don't understand what happens in war with regular human beings in the real world. Again, please try to actually understand my issue with this...
#14
Matrim
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 03:27 PM
Illuyankas said:
Probably because they were starving. Food first, rape later. Besides, for those who want to rape people, they have the Tenescowri to raid. Also, well, too much talk of rape 1) would detract from the impact of Stonny's scene, and 2) feel really unpleasant, personally.
The Tenescowri were starving not the Seerdomin, IIRC. They are elite troops, the Domin's personal bodyguards which I guess are well fed and supplied with everything they need.
This has to be one of the most moving, if brutal, scenes in MoI.
Quote
"He set off, skirting the wall, the woman curling up in his arms, her face pressed hard against his tunic, the rough cloth growing wetter there.
Behind them, the Scalandi were dying by the hundreds, the Grey Swords and Capanthall delivering dread slaughter.
He wanted to be there with them. In the front line. Taking life after life.
One Seerdomin was not enough. A thousand would not be enough.
Not now."
Behind them, the Scalandi were dying by the hundreds, the Grey Swords and Capanthall delivering dread slaughter.
He wanted to be there with them. In the front line. Taking life after life.
One Seerdomin was not enough. A thousand would not be enough.
Not now."
Sonnyboy, the Seerdomin might be fanatics but they are still humans, with human virtues and vices. At that point their victory seemed inevitable and the slaughter would have happened regardless whether this Seerdomin spent some time raping people. Such a short scene and yet it me makes hate this bastard Seerdomin so much...
#15
Illuyankas
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 03:42 PM
Sonnyboy said:
No no no. You're not understanding me. Rape and pillage was not a motivation for the Pannion Domin as I understood it, especially at that point in the novel. Slaughter was the only motivation, as was my understanding. Try to follow me here:
That the Seerdomin should wish to assert dominance or power struck me (and still does) as out of character. I may be wrong, but that's how I read it. I just saw the only motivation, at all, as slaughter. No rape, no pillage, just death and destruction.
What I'm arguing is that I don't see the Seerdomin as having human urges or motivations that can be likened to anything on this world. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's only about the Seerdomin. I'm not so bloody stupid that I don't understand what happens in war with regular human beings in the real world. Again, please try to actually understand my issue with this...
That the Seerdomin should wish to assert dominance or power struck me (and still does) as out of character. I may be wrong, but that's how I read it. I just saw the only motivation, at all, as slaughter. No rape, no pillage, just death and destruction.
What I'm arguing is that I don't see the Seerdomin as having human urges or motivations that can be likened to anything on this world. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's only about the Seerdomin. I'm not so bloody stupid that I don't understand what happens in war with regular human beings in the real world. Again, please try to actually understand my issue with this...
Why wouldn't they have the same urges? They're human too, they're not weird aliens or other non-human races with inhuman desires. And while slaughter may be the primary driving force for most of the troops, seeing as it leads to a food source, as Matrim said the Seerdomin are well fed, and they're trying to conquer the city and bring as many people into the Embrace as possible, either as new adherents or as a lunchbox, for their Seer, their God-king. Reducing normal people with their normal lives down to the level of the Tenescowri is practically what they do. As far as I can see, SE is adding more realism into the story, as acts like would and do happen all the time, so leaving them out is a tad airbrushing over the unpleasant bits.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#16 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 07 February 2006 - 04:39 PM
I know they're human. I just read them as being... changed. Maybe I'm wrong and need to reread the book (no time soon). See, I just have a hard time accepting the Pannion Domin as something that can exist as a strictly human thing. For the Seerdomin or the Tenescrowri or any of the others involved to actually do what they're doing, I need there to be supernatural influence involved, ie that the whole Domin was being manipulated from the top to the bottom. But hey, my copy is on another continent right now, so I can't go through it.
#17
Illuyankas
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 05:09 PM
Then you have a much more pleasant view of human behaviour than me - I see it as all too plausible, given the isolation of the area and intent of the higher-ups in the Domin. There are always people who will do anything to survive, take the example of China after the Japanese invaded in the 30's (I think, could be earlier). The Japanese troops would play sick games with the Chinese population in recently conquered provinces, where they would force them to choose between something utter reprehensible, such as a son raping his mother, or a father his daughter, or they were killed. Many of those given this 'choice' refused, and died with their families. But some did not. Really, a person can sink to any level to stay alive, for any reason.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#18 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 07 February 2006 - 06:01 PM
Oh, I realize that. Take the Holocaust as another example. The descriptions of the inner lands of the Domin spoke of something else, however. If I'm remembering correctly, were these lands not entirely desolate? As in, every living thing either converted (to Tenscowri) or destroyed? That's within their own expanding borders, remember. It's not at all that I don't see humans as incapable of unspeakable horrific acts. But the level of destruction, including self-destruction, from the Pannion Domin was something that I saw as being outside humanity. I know of nothing on Earth that can even come close to the descriptions of the Pannion Domin. But then, maybe I was reading the Pannions as something more than SE intended. But to me, they weren't just an aggressively expansionist army of zealots...
#19
Trotts
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Posted 07 February 2006 - 06:07 PM
Quote
The Tenescowri were starving not the Seerdomin, IIRC. They are elite troops, the Domin's personal bodyguards which I guess are well fed and supplied with everything they need.
i think this is important to understand too. its the tenescowri that are the mass of starving blood thirsty religious zealots. the seerdomin are fed, and "pampered", and so can think of other needs/desires
#20 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 07 February 2006 - 06:33 PM
True... but what motivates them to do what they do? Base human needs? Power? Dominance? Love of killing? All of these?
What about their training? I thought they were like, ELITE, not just elite. Where and when did they train? What motivated them to get through their training? Were they born into the cult and trained from childhood?
Maybe I'm being dense, but it's still not all adding up to me. I know they're well-fed and supplied, but I just still don't see them as human. Well, they're human, but like I said, changed... I don't know. Maybe I'm just dense.
What about their training? I thought they were like, ELITE, not just elite. Where and when did they train? What motivated them to get through their training? Were they born into the cult and trained from childhood?
Maybe I'm being dense, but it's still not all adding up to me. I know they're well-fed and supplied, but I just still don't see them as human. Well, they're human, but like I said, changed... I don't know. Maybe I'm just dense.
