[bebbe]

Okey, so the deck of dragons contains several high houses - life, death, light, shadow, chains etc. The card of Burn however is unaligned - obelisk, does this means that there is no High House Burn/Tennes? If no then does Caladan Brood hold a position in this house? He certainly should since he seems to be so vital to Burn, but i can not recall that he has ever been given such a title.

[Aptorian]

Burn is an unaligned card. Like Oponn, K'rull, etc. Means she's unaffiliated with any house.

Individual gods however, especially the older ones it would seem, can have personal servants that mirror some of the roles in the houses. These being Mortal Sword, Destriant and Shield Anvil. All though it's never been mentioned, whether he likes to or not, Burn probably picked Caladan Brood as her Mortal Sword or Destriant.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I once postulated that perhaps Mortal Sword and Knight are the same thing, maybe the roles of Priest and Soldier are Destriant and Shield Anvil respectively.

I am curious as to why High House War hasn't been officially recognised yet.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 08 January 2009 - 11:59 AM

[MTS]

Hasn't it? I thought it manifested in the new Beast Hold/Warren, with Togg and Fanderay as the heads. And it appears in the Deck of Dragons now.

[Aptorian]

The wolves hold two different positions. One in the Beast Hold that is now the dreamwarren of the Imass, and one in the house of war.

[blackzoid]

I don't agree Caladan Brood is Mortal Sword or Destriant at all.

Almost every other Mortal Sword/Destriant is a mortal with "some" power. But are not overwhelming powerhouses.
Caladan Brood is an Ascendent in his own right. He partnered with Rake for thousands of years, as an equal (no hard facts on that, but its implied in MoI)

If there is a High House Burn, its natural that he would be Champion/Knight in that House. Ascendents generally hold those positions in the houses (except when a Deck is used for Metephorical readings, like Trull for Knight of Shadow in the Bone hunters, or Kalam for the Rope in DG)
Mortal Sword/Destriant is too low a level for Brood to take. Its possible that he could have a Mortal Sword/Destriant of his own.
Greymane would be Burn's Mortal Sword in my opinion.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Burn doesn't play an active role-she isn't in the same vein as Dark, say, or Shadow.

[MTS]

In comparison to regular humans (which they are, really), Mortal Swords are overwhelming powerhouses. Look at Dassem, for instance. Mortal Sword to Hood, and is pretty much the greatest swordsman in the Malaziverse (not starting an argument, but he's up there). If Mortal Sword has a Knight counterpart in the Deck, then wouldn't Rake be the Mortal Sword of Dark? Osserc is the Champion of Light, so wouldn't that be a parallel as well? If so, then why not Brood? The only things I can come up with are that Burn isn't "active", like AIJ said, and that Burn is Unaligned. Then again, Fener had a Mortal Sword, and he didn't hold a position in the Deck (as far as I'm aware).

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 08 January 2009 - 01:53 PM

[blackzoid]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jan 8 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

In comparison to regular humans (which they are, really), Mortal Swords are overwhelming powerhouses. Look at Dassem, for instance. Mortal Sword to Hood, and is pretty much the greatest swordsman in the Malaziverse (not starting an argument, but he's up there). If Mortal Sword has a Knight counterpart in the Deck, then wouldn't Rake be the Mortal Sword of Dark? Osserc is the Champion of Light, so wouldn't that be a parallel as well? If so, then why not Brood? The only things I can come up with are that Burn isn't "active", like AIJ said, and that Burn is Unaligned. Then again, Fener had a Mortal Sword, and he didn't hold a position in the Deck (as far as I'm aware).

Dassem WAS the Knight of High House Death. Check all the glossaries.
His replacement was initially Baudin and then the Segulah second.
Both of those replacements were undead and so were not "Mortal" Swords.
Now perhaps Dassem started out as Hoods' Mortal Sword, but by the time of his vow to kill Hood, he was an Ascendent (Dassembrae) whose power rivalled Hood's. (GoTM confirms this)
Champion and Knight are both there for Houses Light/Life and Death/Dark. They are above Mortal Swords in the scheme of things.

My way of remembering things:
Single Ascendents/Gods (whether aligned or not) have the options to have their own individual Mortal Swords/Destriants

A group of Ascendents/Gods can form a House in the Deck with the most martial Ascendent assuming the position of Champion/Knight. (I always considered Cotillion to be the equivalent for High House Shadow). Now Generally mortals can occupy the lower levels of the Houses but not the upper, with the exception of methaphorical readings of the Deck by seers/mages etc.

Now SE has gone away from the formal Deck of Dragons's structure since GoTM and has brought in more of the Mortal Sword/Destriant stuff, but he has yet to explicitly repudiate the distinction.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 08 January 2009 - 03:04 PM

[Andirak]

It seems to me Knights/Champions are way above Mortal Swords, but I might be reading too much into this. Is there any Mortal Sword whose power level comes close to that of, say, Osric or Rake?

And there is this, a Mortal Sword is, well, a mortal. Maybe a Knight/Champion and a Mortal Sword have similar functions in their respective Houses, but the latter on a smaller scale, and the former on a larger one. If MS are powerhouses in respect to humans, then I see K/C as powerhouses in regards to MS.

[Seguleh 1st]

to the metaphorical readings - isn't trull sengar in fact Knight of High House Shadow? i mean, he held back icarium (well thats onrack's saying) which is what no warrior has ever done (i believe that were his words)

[blackzoid]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 8 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

to the metaphorical readings - isn't trull sengar in fact Knight of High House Shadow? i mean, he held back icarium (well thats onrack's saying) which is what no warrior has ever done (i believe that were his words)

Yes, metaphorically Trull was the Knight of Shadow. But he didn't get an actual formal position in the house. And its only one Seer's(Fiddler) opinion.

Its like in Deadhouse Gates when Kalam drew out the Rope of House Shadow, which was then stated as his card. It doesn't necessary mean that Cotillion has been deposed of House Shadow and Kalam is now the new Rope, it was just an analogy stating Kalam's intended purpose.

[Seguleh 1st]

no i mean hasnt trull in real become knight of HHS?
why shouldnt he be, the place iwasn't possessed as of then, if i'm right

[blackzoid]

Seguleh 1st, on Jan 8 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

no i mean hasnt trull in real become knight of HHS?
why shouldnt he be, the place iwasn't possessed as of then, if i'm right

He isn't in the glossary and he is dead. Unless he comes back with Ascendent power, he isn't the Knight.
Now maybe Trull WAS an Ascendent when he fought Icarium, I don't know. But do you think he is on the same level as Rake,Osric,Cotillion,Brood? Fiddler was just one Seer, we need further readings from different guys to confirm that Trull was the Knight.




MINOR ROTCG SPOILER

There was a reading of the Deck in RoTCG and the Knight of Shadow was a position that was not mentioned.

[Seguleh 1st]

didn't read RotCG
and i do not put him on one level with the ascendants you named
and i forgot hes dead

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Well, I think given time Trull would have attained a higher level of being. Best way I can say miniature-Ascending.

But he's dead and gone.

Gone forever.

[Urko Schmurko]

blackzoid, on Jan 8 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jan 8 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

In comparison to regular humans (which they are, really), Mortal Swords are overwhelming powerhouses. Look at Dassem, for instance. Mortal Sword to Hood, and is pretty much the greatest swordsman in the Malaziverse (not starting an argument, but he's up there). If Mortal Sword has a Knight counterpart in the Deck, then wouldn't Rake be the Mortal Sword of Dark? Osserc is the Champion of Light, so wouldn't that be a parallel as well? If so, then why not Brood? The only things I can come up with are that Burn isn't "active", like AIJ said, and that Burn is Unaligned. Then again, Fener had a Mortal Sword, and he didn't hold a position in the Deck (as far as I'm aware).

Dassem WAS the Knight of High House Death. Check all the glossaries.
His replacement was initially Baudin and then the Segulah second.
Both of those replacements were undead and so were not "Mortal" Swords.
Now perhaps Dassem started out as Hoods' Mortal Sword, but by the time of his vow to kill Hood, he was an Ascendent (Dassembrae) whose power rivalled Hood's. (GoTM confirms this)
Champion and Knight are both there for Houses Light/Life and Death/Dark. They are above Mortal Swords in the scheme of things.

My way of remembering things:
Single Ascendents/Gods (whether aligned or not) have the options to have their own individual Mortal Swords/Destriants

A group of Ascendents/Gods can form a House in the Deck with the most martial Ascendent assuming the position of Champion/Knight. (I always considered Cotillion to be the equivalent for High House Shadow). Now Generally mortals can occupy the lower levels of the Houses but not the upper, with the exception of methaphorical readings of the Deck by seers/mages etc.

Now SE has gone away from the formal Deck of Dragons's structure since GoTM and has brought in more of the Mortal Sword/Destriant stuff, but he has yet to explicitly repudiate the distinction.

IIRC, Baudin is still Knight of HH Death, and the Segulah Second held the position of soldier in HH Death, but now released from this position to chase Skinner.

[blackzoid]

Urko Schmurko, on Jan 9 2009, 04:51 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Jan 8 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Jan 8 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

In comparison to regular humans (which they are, really), Mortal Swords are overwhelming powerhouses. Look at Dassem, for instance. Mortal Sword to Hood, and is pretty much the greatest swordsman in the Malaziverse (not starting an argument, but he's up there). If Mortal Sword has a Knight counterpart in the Deck, then wouldn't Rake be the Mortal Sword of Dark? Osserc is the Champion of Light, so wouldn't that be a parallel as well? If so, then why not Brood? The only things I can come up with are that Burn isn't "active", like AIJ said, and that Burn is Unaligned. Then again, Fener had a Mortal Sword, and he didn't hold a position in the Deck (as far as I'm aware).

Dassem WAS the Knight of High House Death. Check all the glossaries.
His replacement was initially Baudin and then the Segulah second.
Both of those replacements were undead and so were not "Mortal" Swords.
Now perhaps Dassem started out as Hoods' Mortal Sword, but by the time of his vow to kill Hood, he was an Ascendent (Dassembrae) whose power rivalled Hood's. (GoTM confirms this)
Champion and Knight are both there for Houses Light/Life and Death/Dark. They are above Mortal Swords in the scheme of things.

My way of remembering things:
Single Ascendents/Gods (whether aligned or not) have the options to have their own individual Mortal Swords/Destriants

A group of Ascendents/Gods can form a House in the Deck with the most martial Ascendent assuming the position of Champion/Knight. (I always considered Cotillion to be the equivalent for High House Shadow). Now Generally mortals can occupy the lower levels of the Houses but not the upper, with the exception of methaphorical readings of the Deck by seers/mages etc.

Now SE has gone away from the formal Deck of Dragons's structure since GoTM and has brought in more of the Mortal Sword/Destriant stuff, but he has yet to explicitly repudiate the distinction.

IIRC, Baudin is still Knight of HH Death, and the Segulah Second held the position of soldier in HH Death, but now released from this position to chase Skinner.

Both Hood and the Second himself referred to the Second as being the "Knight of Death" in TTH. SE must have changed his mind.

[Aptorian]

Was Baudin actually seen or mentioned in TTH? Could be he died, was fired or he abdicated his position. Leaving the spot open for the 2nd

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Jan 9 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

Was Baudin actually seen or mentioned in TTH? Could be he died, was fired or he abdicated his position. Leaving the spot open for the 2nd

No, I think Hood, while in Dragnipur, tells Toc to find Baudin. He might have referred to him as the soldier, can't remember. But he did mention the name Baudin for sure.