[Obdigore]

L'oric, on Mar 2 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Obdigore, on Mar 2 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

And she can be lauded for doing the best she can for the empire, and being betrayed by numerous people around her, either by drowning or by them doing powergrabs for themselves.

You see her as a villan because you want to. You make assumptions about situations that support what you want to believe.

I see many things and the only assumption I am making is as follows.

x+2=4 therefore x=2.

No we do not see every and all scenes that indicate who she is trying to kill or how inept she is but in my opinion we get more than enough. Just like I solved for x above I solved for Laseen being a party to or fulcrum to a hosts of bad choices.

If you see my points as sophistry and without basis then thats how you see them. I guess I can go over them one more time later and see how those go. Maybe if I made my points with exact quotes from every book section I would have a shot.

I am sure that I have stated on numerous occasions that I did indeed like Laseen as a character. I never say she is a villian just bad at being an Empress. I have called her horrid/stupid/moronic but all in the context of her choices as Empress none of those qualify/quantify her as a villian.

Sincerely

No, the assumption you are making is

(Book Content) + (Your Assumptions) = Bad Empress.

[L'oric]

Obdigore, on Mar 2 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

No, the assumption you are making is

(Book Content) + (Your Assumptions) = Bad Empress.

::gag:: and a few more emoticons. This is false. Patently false and just because you say that is what I am doing does not make it so. Skip my posts. Barring that then maybe I will follow my own advice.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Mar 2 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Indeed. Why would Tay, a fire user, cast ice on Ako? Nightchill on the other hand, the sister of cold nights, sounds like a much more likely culprite.

Plausible deniabilty maybe? "Everyone" knows that Tay is fire user so why not sneak in an ice attack so that he can claim innocence afterward. I seriously doubt that a High Mage of Tay's power, skill and experience don't have the abilty to use other warrens when he needs to.

With regards to Nightchill; Elder Goddess or not, being torn to peices seriously hinders your abiilty to blow away your fellow High mage.


I'm with L'oric on this (except the Mallick Rel bit). Laseen manged to utterly ruin a a good, functioning Empire. Sure many Old Guard left, (would you stay and serve sociopath Surly who just rubbed out your friend and emperor?) but given the seize of Empire Surly, If she was competent, should have managed to find some competent underlings, yet somehow the best she can come up with are the likes of Pormqual?
I cheered when reading about her being assainated.

[foolio]

all quotes from obdigore, excuse me um, er Humperdink

Quote

You mean she was ruling the empire for years when dancer and kell went off hopping through the azath houses, and when they come back and they know they need to be assassinated, she does it for them? Yes, that is the very definition of stealing!

When Kell and Dancer are running around jumping through Azaths there are other capable people helping run the empire, like Whiskeyjack. Things are running smoothely, aside from Surly induced madness like the mouse quarter at the beginning of GOTM. Also , are you saying that Kell and Dancer asked Surly to assasinate them? I think the entire book of GOTM prooves that they harbor a grudge against her. She even failed at this, as we know they were not assasinated...They might have used her as the psychopath that she is, knowing she would crave power for herself, anything else seems to be just a theory of some. I think the quote is "an empire she never earned..." Yes I would say she stole the empire.

Quote

Mob think isn't logical.

good point. I will not argue this...

Quote

Pearl brings him to Malaz City and dumps him in the brig. Does he say anything to Laseen? Does any claw say a thing to laseen except bring the two of them before her, to weave a story of triumph and duplicity? Remember that Laseen cannot trust anything the claw says.

I thought the entire conversation in BH between Pearl and Laseen is him telling her shes got the facts wrong and it will never work. She KNOWS she has the facts wrong and gives him a look into her ethically challenged mind by saying her lies will work. Also Pearl tells her before she meets with Adjunct , Mallick , and Dom, "listen to the Adjunct, she is still your arm, nothing has changed that." Also Pearl had to say something to them when he dumped Korbolo in the brig, just because we dont see it doesnt mean he didnt tell the story. Unless, of course, it is normal in Surly's empire to dump loyal fists in sack and take them straight to the brig...

Quote

Name the ones she did or ordered. Not one. Thats right, not a single one you can prove she ordered, besides Cot/Shadowthrone, who I think she was working with.

DU

Quote

Look, she forgave and brought back Urko, didn't she. Whereas Mallick Rel does horrible things, like the Wickan Progoms or the attempted turning for Mael, then blames the people around him and kills them.

You are attributing the Wickan Progrom to Maillick Rel? Thats crazy, Surly was the Empress. You can make excuse after excuse about Rels power but the buck has to stop somewhere. She was empress, she ordered the Progrom, if she couldnt overrule a fat, traitorous priest from the 7 Cs in her capitol city then what good is she? I think this just prooves our point for us.

this was in defence of pormaqual;

Quote

When she has heard of nothing wrong, and everything seems to be going swimmingly for him, why not? As an aside, she didn't even realize the nobility had made extensive inroads into the army command structure until her Adjunct discovered it.

This dude sucked royally. First of all he was a thief and a horrible military commander. He was not only fist of Aren but also had one, of two, armies in the 7cs. Anyone could tell that he was horrible. He was on screen for like two pages in the entire series and it was so obvious that he was terrible. How can Surly not tell? She wanted to be Empress, that comes with responsibility, such as appointing someone worth a Shit to the first or second most important possition in 7 Cs.

Quote

As an aside, she didn't even realize the nobility had made extensive inroads into the army command structure until her Adjunct discovered it.

You mean her noble born adjunct that she promoted had to inform her that the nobility had made gains in the command structure. Again, you are proving my point for me.

This post has been edited by foolio: 05 March 2009 - 10:00 PM

[Trull's son]

What was that one Kellanved quote again? something along th elines of "the miracle of hindsight is that it can transforms a past military genius into an incompetent idiot and an incompetent idiot of the present into a great military genius.

[L'oric]

Trull's son, on Mar 3 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

What was that one Kellanved quote again? something along th elines of "the miracle of hindsight is that it can transforms a past military genius into an incompetent idiot and an incompetent idiot of the present into a great military genius.

Took me a week or so but...

“The wisdom of hindsight, so useful to historians and indeed to authors of memoirs, is sadly denied to practicing politicians”
-Thatcher

Just because its hindsight does not mean that it is wrong. If she had thrown oil on a fire and afterward someone commented that she shouldnt have thrown the oil on the fire if she didnt want a bigger blaze would that make the hindsight any less meaningful.

More to come because though the horse is dead I think it will still be servicable in hoods realm.