[Abyss]

I've discussed this elsethread, but hey, why not once more...


WHY DID IT HAVE TO HAPPEN IN DARUJHISTAN?

Because it would have been fucking boring in the middle of the desert with no one around.

NO, REALLY, WHY DID IT HAVE TO HAPPEN IN DARUJHISTAN?

Couple of reasons...

Hood had to manifest fully. Due to whatever twists and turns of magic are involved, he can't just do a 'poof, here i am' thing, probably because thre is more power in the actions of human worshippers than in gods acting of their own accord. In other instances where Hood has manifested outside a temple, collecting Baudin or Apsalar's father, he may have been present, but that was for a purpose of collecting a soul, and probably linked to the death taking place and his role as gatekeeper. In MoI he manifests when QB follows the link thru Talamanadas, and at the end in his own temple, - both instances where his power is involved. TtH is different - for the overall plan to work, Hood has to die and yet carry the totality of his power into Dragnipur so he can bring in the armies of the dead. Even with Dragnipur weakening, that can't be easy, so something more complex is called for.

So Hood sets up this very elaborate scheme, investing power in that guy with no fingers, who becomes a (not 'the'... 'a') Soldier in HHDeath, and his wife who becomes Mason for the duration of the ritual, not permanently. Fingerless goes around killing people, basically gathering souls to power the ritual. His wife prepares the ritual itself and then kills him - there is power in souls and power in sacrifice and this was both - so Hood is pulled, entirely, into Darujhistan.

Think about that for a moment - in anything other than a big city, Soldier and Mason would not have been likely to accomplish this.

OKAY, WHY ELSE?

Shadowthrone and Cotillion were in on this from the start, and given Pallid and Lock's appearance, they knew other players would get involved. A massive city, with all the powers likely to be present in a convergence, offers more opportunity for distraction. Thus, the Hounds of Shadow could keep Pallid and Lock away. Thus Iskaral, ST's own High Priest, could be on the scene and try to seize the sword, and thus Baruk and Brood - arguably the only two ascendents Rake trusted - could be present. Plus other elements like Cutter - an agent of Cotillion - bringing the Second's spear to the scene to provide a link the Second, now Hood's Knight, could follow to arrive in time. And finally, Karsa was there. Look at Karsa's meeting with ST and Cot and consider whether by telling Karsa to stay away, they weren't making damn sure the toughest motherfucker on the planet wouldn't be right there watching Dassem's back when the shit went down hard.

Also, the city itself is loaded with power and history and that is another element that comes into play in convergence and ritual in these books.

SO DAS IS BETTER THAN RAKE, RIGHT?

No. Rake was fighting with the magical weight of more or less an entire mini-world in his sword, and he set up the hit so that Das struck Dragnipur into Rake and killed him. Rake wins.

LAME! RAKE SHOULD HAVE JUST GIVEN HIMSELF A PAPER CUT!!!

Wrong again. See above - power requires sacrifice. Rake was about to move the gate to the primal womb of the universe out of the sword warren it had been sitting in for a few thousand millenia and into a city on the other side of the continent which also sat in a transported chunk of elder warren. Cutting your finger isn't sacrifice. Killing the god of death and then tricking the god of sorrow into smashing your own sword into your own face and thus denying him the revenge he's spent the last hundred years or so chasing, and killing a few hundred innocent bystanders to set up the entire thing (fingerless' victims, people caught by the ripple in Hood's passage thru the city, and the others taken out in the Hounds' fights), and using up the post-death souls of several million or so... THAT is SACRIFICE.

WHY DID THEY NEED ALL THE DEAD SOULS TO DO THIS?

Because the wagon had to stop, and Chaos would have just jumped on it if someone wasn't in place to delay it, and the chained souls were too weak, AND had to be eliminated in case it all worked and the more dangerous ones would be released.

HOOD WAS DEAD - WHAT'S DASSEM'S PROBLEM?

He's spent a hundred years trying to get back at Hood for what happened to his daughter at the last Chaining. Now someone else - one of the few people Das actually respected - has killed Hood, and then used Das' fury to commit suicide. He's been denied, tricked out of the one thing that's been driving him for a century. He's a little messed up just then.

IS HOOD REALLY DEAD?

We don't really know for sure. Everyone seems pretty certain at the end of TtH that Draconus is going to re-emerge, and that means powerful souls chained in Dragnipur are coming back to the world, in some way. Logically that would include Hood, but then, Hood already 'died' once before when he ascended to take on the role of Hood (assuming that was his bodysicle Fiddler found in RG). Draconus died for the first time when Rake took Dragnipur from him.

It does seem clear Hood is no longer 'Hood' - whatever comes next, he's given up his aspect of death which it seems he held since the Jaghut race's failed war against death that Kallor discussed with the undead dragon.

Basically, it could go either way. Trust in SE. SE is good. SE is great.

SO DASSEM CAN BEAT ICARIUM?

Shut up and die.


- Abyss, pro-crastinator.

[flea]

Nice!

Slow day at work?

[Aptorian]

See for once I'm going to completely disagree with you Abyss, the whole convergence never had to take place and pretty much the whole thing was just an elaborate excuse for Erikson giving Rake a good send off instead of Rake just doing it in the loo or something.

The only reason to why Hood needed to die was because his army was needed and Hood could rally the souls in the sword for a last stand. But why did they wait for the situation to become so dire? For chaos coming so close? The reason has to be, even though Erikson doesn't tell us this, that Rake and Hood wanted the bad souls in Dragnipur destroyed or at least worn down to so small a percentage that the other players on Burn could take care of them afterwards.

But was that really necessary? What if they had done it six months earlier? Rake stabs himself in the hold of Black Corals keep, his soul descends upon the scene, the vagon comes to a halt, maybe Rake bitchslaps a couple of old enemies for old times sake, has a chat with Draconus about what a fine ass his daughter is, and then Rake invokes the ritual. Chaos never even comes close, Hood doesn't need to die and Darujistan doesn't need to nearly go sky high in a kruppeshaped mushroom cloud. That leaves the problem of all those pesky souls inside Dragnipur. Well, where to put them? How about letting them spill into Hoods warren? Even if this doesn't automatically put them to rest you could have had the army standing ready. Maybe do it in a bowl shaped depression and just have the BBs sapper standing ready on the edges raining cussers down on them.

It isn't stated anywhere that Rake needed the power of the death in Darujistan or a noble sacrifice of his own death to be able to finish the ritual. If anything he could probably had used the power within Dragnipur for this. Dragnipur claims you soul no matter what. Rake could have fallen on it and he would have been sucked in.

It's not a pretty solution but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the convuluted nonsense that is the TTH convergence.

[Andirak]

Abyss, on Jan 5 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Andirak, on Dec 20 2008, 07:15 PM, said:

Grief, on Dec 20 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

There was speculation around that dragnipur actively tries to stop you dying, such as with Rake killing Apsal'ara.

Why is this interpreted that way? IMNSHO it didn't seem as if Dragnipur reacted by itself. Rake had not intended to kill her, but the moment she tried, well, it was within his rights to return the favor. And he did....

Because in Apsalara's flashback Rake seemed upset about it.

And how does that mean Dragnipur reacted by itself again? It seems Rake was not interested in killing her, but you don't get away with trying to kill him. He is not the most merciful guy around, but neither does he kill unless there is a reason. She gave him that reason. He did not kill her because he wanted to, thus his regrets, but he was not going to ignore her attempt altogether. I fail to see how that is evidence for Dragnipur 'actively trying to stop its owner from dying'. Not that it's impossible, but rather unlikely.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

You'd be suprised how sentient Dragnipur is. It's like Frostmourne-it looooooooooooooooooongs for blood. Who's to say it couldn't act under its own volition.

[Hinter]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 6 2009, 09:43 AM, said:

You'd be suprised how sentient Dragnipur is. It's like Frostmourne-it looooooooooooooooooongs for blood. Who's to say it couldn't act under its own volition.

I don't buy this at all. Apsalara tried to stick a knife in Rake's back, Rake reacted as anyone would in the face of death and removed the threat. He was upset afterwards because he thought that maybe he should have shown some restraint as Apsalara wasn't that much of a threat, and he didn't necessarily have to kill her. I haven't read anything to suggest that Dragnipur is a sentient object, but then I have a crap memory which is why I've just started a re-read of the whole series!

[Aptorian]

I agree Hinter, Rake regretted having to kill her... nothing suggests the sword is able to act on its own.

[Abyss]

Two points on the Dragnipur-has-a-mind-of-its-own thing... (using 'mind' loosely, obviously - no one is suggesting sentience)

1) We've already seen Rhulad's sword, which does in fact act by itself and drag its bearer along for the ride;

and

2) Dragnipur was made by Draconus way back in the day, and back then, Draconus was NOT a nice person, so him building safety measure and hidden surprises into the sword is not unthinkable.

Anyrate, it's really only the Apsalara thing that suggests the sword has a built in 'defence/no suicide' element, and that's a sparse arguement, but it supports the 'Rake couldn't just give himself a paper cut' arguement, so there it is.

- Abyss, self-motivated.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on Jan 5 2009, 12:30 PM, said:

See for once I'm going to completely disagree with you Abyss,

...other than all the other times you disagree with me...

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...the whole convergence never had to take place and pretty much the whole thing was just an elaborate excuse for Erikson giving Rake a good send off instead of Rake just doing it in the loo or something.

No No No.

Ritual is important. Power flows from the belief that something matters. Look at the cadre mages prepping in GotM. Look at all the crazy shite the wickan shamans got up to in DG. Look at frikkin Itkovian not getting laid for a few decades because he thought Fener wanted his Sheild Anvil to be sexually frustrated. The Ceda lay on the floor for a week and nearly took out the entire Edur race. Again and again, preparation, sacrifice, ritual, SE's been playing up these elements since day one (pre Burn's Sleep )

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The only reason to why Hood needed to die was because his army was needed and Hood could rally the souls in the sword for a last stand. But why did they wait for the situation to become so dire? For chaos coming so close? The reason has to be, even though Erikson doesn't tell us this, that Rake and Hood wanted the bad souls in Dragnipur destroyed or at least worn down to so small a percentage that the other players on Burn could take care of them afterwards.

We agree on this, but also, it took this long for everyone to figure out a plan that might work and get all the pieces in place.

Btw, Dassem's loss of his revenge on Hood was part of the sacrifice. So was Hood giving up his role as gatekeeper of death.

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...It isn't stated anywhere that Rake needed the power of the death in Darujistan or a noble sacrifice of his own death to be able to finish the ritual. If anything he could probably had used the power within Dragnipur for this. Dragnipur claims you soul no matter what. Rake could have fallen on it and he would have been sucked in.

It's not a pretty solution but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the convuluted nonsense that is the TTH convergence.

Yes, it's nice and simple and practical and that's exactly why it wouldn't work. Plus it would have been boring.

- Abyss, yawn-averse.

[Grief]

On the point of Dragnipur self defence:

We know that the Holds all have self defence mechanisms.

Dragnipur gets rid of the gate of darkness' traditional method. Every time the wielder of dragnipur dies, their is a risk the new one will be terrible. Therefore, its in the gates best interest to help the keeper avoid dying.

So, is it really unthinkable that the gate may at least try to help them stay alive, such as avoiding suicide etc...

[Aptorian]

Yes.

Dragnipur has never been mentioned as, or hinted at, being anything but a big, death bringing, wagonchugging monstrosity that scares the shit out of you at a thousand yards. It's never... NEVER.. been described as a having a will of its own let alone an automated defense system. I dare you to find a quote

You might aswell begin claiming that Broods hammer wants to hit things because it is a hammer and hammers like to hit things. Or Ruins swords like to sing because it is made to create a highpitch sound.

[Nicodimas]

I Just finished the series for my first time..It will require another re-read in the future.

I always figured to become Lord of Death you killed the lord of death...Wasn't Rake being owned by power after killing Hood. Then Dassem kills Rake so doesn't this make him the Lord of Death?

I kinda thought that was why he was crying/curled up into a ball is now he is the new Lord of Death. If Hood was going to lose to someone they would want to make sure he could keep it. Hood asked the people to come voluntairly because he could no longer will them. Otherwise Hoods realm is now open to anyone to just become the lord of death, which I don't think he would stand for ever.

As a sidenote earlier in the book Kallor was told 100 million Jaghut wared against Death itself right? So Hood was the one who won and become the new God of Death someone in control of a elemental force.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 07 January 2009 - 02:16 AM

[Andirak]

Can Dragnipur have a built-in mechanism designed to save its owner? Yes it's possible, that might even be a simple matter considering all the other nasty stuff it has got inside, and that it was made by a god. But do we have even an inkling that such mechanism exist? Nope. Quote it or it didn't happen (I learned that from here).

Fact: Brys Beddict can draw his sword in a heartbeat or less.

Rake is faster than Brys (disputable, but not by me).

Quote

The damned sword had been out of its scabbard faster than an eye-blink, the deadly edge slicing across her [Apsal'ara's] belly even as she lunged with her obsidian dagger.

Now:

1. Dragnipur has a mechanism designed to save its user, going as far as somehow using compulsion when said user is being recalcitrant.
2. Rake is very fast.

Take your pick.

Rhulad's sword has the CG lurking behind it, actively trying to help him. The same cannot be said about Dragnipur.

That said, I believe Rake killing himself is a possibility, but had he done that we would be bitching about it, clamoring for something less... simple, something less boring.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Abyss, on Jan 7 2009, 02:36 AM, said:

Two points on the Dragnipur-has-a-mind-of-its-own thing... (using 'mind' loosely, obviously - no one is suggesting sentience)

1) We've already seen Rhulad's sword, which does in fact act by itself and drag its bearer along for the ride;

and

2) Dragnipur was made by Draconus way back in the day, and back then, Draconus was NOT a nice person, so him building safety measure and hidden surprises into the sword is not unthinkable.

Anyrate, it's really only the Apsalara thing that suggests the sword has a built in 'defence/no suicide' element, and that's a sparse arguement, but it supports the 'Rake couldn't just give himself a paper cut' arguement, so there it is.

- Abyss, self-motivated.

See? This dude agrees.

Mind you, I admit that Dragnipur's intelligence if any is not too flexible as otherwise it would have jumped or something when Brood smashed it.

[Abyss]

Nicodimas, on Jan 6 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

I Just finished the series for my first time..It will require another re-read in the future.

Welcome. Rereads are good. rereads are your friend. Embrace the reread.

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I always figured to become Lord of Death you killed the lord of death...Wasn't Rake being owned by power after killing Hood. Then Dassem kills Rake so doesn't this make him the Lord of Death?

I kinda thought that was why he was crying/curled up into a ball is now he is the new Lord of Death.

Nope - you're channelling Piers Anthony. The handful of successor ascensions we've seen - Felisin for Shaik, Trake for Fener, Togg/Fenderbender for Fener, ST taking over Meanas... none of the replacements were actually involved in the death of the original. Typically a gap appears and someone slides in for various reasons. Paran killed Poliel (albeit indirectly) but didn't become the god of disease.

Rake was down on the ground because the metaphysical weight of Dragnipur had just increased by the metaphysical mass of the entirety of Hood's power - arguably Hood's warren(s). Put another way, up until Rake killed Hood, he was carrying an entire small world in Dragnipur. After killing Hood he was carrying two.

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If Hood was going to lose to someone they would want to make sure he could keep it. Hood asked the people to come voluntairly because he could no longer will them. Otherwise Hoods realm is now open to anyone to just become the lord of death, which I don't think he would stand for ever.

Hood's out of the game. whether he continues in another form/role or not remains to be seen, but it was clear he wanted out.

Pet theory: the thing Edgewalker was being recruited to 'mitigate' in the epilogue was the gap in the pantheon from Hood's death. Next time we see Edgy, he may be filling that role.

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As a sidenote earlier in the book Kallor was told 100 million Jaghut wared against Death itself right? So Hood was the one who won and become the new God of Death someone in control of a elemental force.

More or less. It seems as tho the Jaghut lost that war yet their leader or one of their leaders became Hood and took control of Death in some fashion. It seemed the Jaghut body on the throne that Hedge found back in RG was his.

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 7 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

...Mind you, I admit that Dragnipur's intelligence if any is not too flexible as otherwise it would have jumped or something when Brood smashed it.

I'm still saying no 'intelligence' in the Stormbringer sense - just a built in compulsion towards self-preservation of the fatal-for-other-people type.

- Abyss, compulsive.

[Aptorian]

Has someone found the page with the Rake vs Apsalara scene yet? I simply cannot believe that everyone suddenly thinks Dragnipur is sentient or has automatic reflexes.

[Hinter]

I'm with you Apt, there is simply nothing, NOTHING to substantiate this claim.

[Illuyankas]

So, we're willing to accept that Rake can swing Dragnipur at speeds too fast to see, but not that he could notice an attack, pull the sword out and kill Apsalary when she has a dumbass moment and jumps him? He's regretting his instinctive reaction because she couldn't really have hurt him, guys. Christ. IT IS NOT FUCKING STORMBRINGER

[Ain't_It_Just_]

What is Stormbringer?

[Darts]

Mcflury, on Jan 5 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

@ Illu, completely off-topic though: where do you fight swords? I mean, I know (or knew) people who used to fence and stuff, but I've never heard of anyone who actually fights with swords the way they must have done in duels in older days... so where do you do this, does it have a specific name of sport?
Or am I completely misunderstanding this and do you in fact not fight with swords on a regular base, but you have done it at least once in the past?

Maybe you're looking for this: http://www.thehaca.com/