[SonOfDarkness]

Dassem went all depressed and sad after the rake fight, a little kid could have come behind him while crying and stabbed him to death ( not really but u get the point).

What was he sad about?

Lets look at it logically: He came to get hood through Dragnipur, he asked rake nicely, rake said no " lets get it on" and so they got it on, Dassem was trying his best to kill Rake. Rake however had the perfect plan to manipulate Dassems moves inorder for Dassem to kill Rake with Dragnipure ( this part is free for intepretation).

So Dassem has respect for rake, as does Rake. Rake dies from Dassems hand, Dassem knows Rake did it on purposem he knew, Karsa was quoted as saying " he cheated " or was it the witch? anyway if they knew then Dassem surely knew.

So was Dassem sad that Rake died? Was he sad Rake gave the fight on purpose? If he just wanted to get in Dragnipur then all he had to do was get killed by Rake.

What the hell was he sad about? So sad he was going to let some hounds kill Karsa and the witch and Cuttter ( not that he knew cutter), point is he almost gave up on life around him while crying about what? What was he so sad about? Rake?



Heres a twisted thought: Was Rake trying to make sure that he Dassem DIDNt receieve ablow from Dragnipur? Like when Dassem says to rake " Stand aside so i can get to hood " Rake saying no means, " No u cannot get killed by dragnipur?"

Hence I will make sure to deflect your killing blows AND in the mean time make sure my dragnipur does nt even scathe u. If that is true then.... thats a next level of swordsman.

[HoosierDaddy]

Okay, that post was rambling so I'm going to answer the simple question: "Why was Travvy sad?"

I think it's because Hood escaped him again into Dragnipur, and either he won't ever be able to get him, or Hood knows where he'll end up. Pun intended.

Being the God of Tragedy has to suck, btw.

[Grief]

Im not sure Dassem would want to go in dragnipur. He wouldnt know if he'd end up chained or what.
So, he may have had some plan to do something to it, ending in Hoods Death.
And yes, Rake had to deflect dassems blows without touching him.

[Mcflury]

I think your so-called 'twisted thought' is the only one that makes sense.

Hood was in Dragnipur, surely Dassem must've known (allthough some rumours are that he did not know indeed), so the only way Dassem could get to Hood was by getting into Drag too. In the meantime, Dassem didn't want to see Rake get killed (since Rake is incredibly awesome and everybody loves him except for himself) so both of them basically fought a fight they wanted to lose. Or at least that's how I've become to see it.

So in the end Dassem was sad because he, directly or indirectly, killed Rake AND because he didn't have a chance to get at Hood anymore (since Rake was now in the sword, where time doesn't really change afaik, so anything thathappened in that sword when Rake entered it must've happened in a blink of an eye in the real Malazan world, and the sword was not capable of binding anymore)
And then perhaps some reasons I missed. Dassem just is a very sad boy I guess. A sad boy with daddy-issues. (or was it daughter issues? Ah well...)

[foolio]

So you guys think Daseem knew Hood was in the sword? I am not saying you are wrong I just didnt get that impression.

If he really wanted to get to Hood, and knew he was in the sword he could have just killed himself with Dragnipur after he killed Rake.(this is very similar to the "why didnt Rake just kill himself with Dragnipur in the privacy of Black coral" arguement.)

[HoosierDaddy]

I think it is the opinion that suicide will not get you into Dragnipur. Have no idea why. We don't often see Traveller acting as Dessambrae, perhaps this grief after the fact is his guise.

[Mcflury]

foolio, on Dec 19 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

So you guys think Daseem knew Hood was in the sword? I am not saying you are wrong I just didnt get that impression.

If he really wanted to get to Hood, and knew he was in the sword he could have just killed himself with Dragnipur after he killed Rake.(this is very similar to the "why didnt Rake just kill himself with Dragnipur in the privacy of Black coral" arguement.)

Well, as I tried to imply in my earlier post, the time inside Drag is completely different than the time outside of it. In other words: if I'm correct (which is a bold thing to believe of course) it lasted less than a second after Rake slammed Drag into his head before the sword could no longer chain souls. A huge guess of course, but it'd explain alot.
This of course barely makes sense since if that's true, why did all those entities still fight over Dragnipur? Since if the sword can indeed no longer bind any souls, it surely is just a normal weapon, like any other sword, only that it has a rich history? My thought is the sword had to be protected and destroyed because it still had the gate to Kurald Emurh..;euh... you know... the warren of darkness thingy And perhaps also to Chaos. But since it couldn't bind souls any longer (and the souls were most likely spilled out again in some unknown place) Dassem couldn't possibly try to pursue Hood just yet.

And Rake couldn't kill himself with Drag in the privacy of BC because he obviously had to pick up Hood first, he promissed it.

[HoosierDaddy]

Mcflury, on Dec 19 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

foolio, on Dec 19 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

So you guys think Daseem knew Hood was in the sword? I am not saying you are wrong I just didnt get that impression.

If he really wanted to get to Hood, and knew he was in the sword he could have just killed himself with Dragnipur after he killed Rake.(this is very similar to the "why didnt Rake just kill himself with Dragnipur in the privacy of Black coral" arguement.)

Well, as I tried to imply in my earlier post, the time inside Drag is completely different than the time outside of it. In other words: if I'm correct (which is a bold thing to believe of course) it lasted less than a second after Rake slammed Drag into his head before the sword could no longer chain souls. A huge guess of course, but it'd explain alot.
This of course barely makes sense since if that's true, why did all those entities still fight over Dragnipur? Since if the sword can indeed no longer bind any souls, it surely is just a normal weapon, like any other sword, only that it has a rich history? My thought is the sword had to be protected and destroyed because it still had the gate to Kurald Emurh..;euh... you know... the warren of darkness thingy And perhaps also to Chaos. But since it couldn't bind souls any longer (and the souls were most likely spilled out again in some unknown place) Dassem couldn't possibly try to pursue Hood just yet.

And Rake couldn't kill himself with Drag in the privacy of BC because he obviously had to pick up Hood first, he promissed it.

I'm going to disagree here. I think that all this goes down in D-stan because Rake wants as many as possible powerful entities around to protect the sword until Brood can shatter it. I am fairly certain it still had the power to Chain. Rake chained Draconus after slaying him, and Draconus had already begun chaining people...

[Mcflury]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 19 2008, 09:50 PM, said:

Mcflury, on Dec 19 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

foolio, on Dec 19 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

So you guys think Daseem knew Hood was in the sword? I am not saying you are wrong I just didnt get that impression.

If he really wanted to get to Hood, and knew he was in the sword he could have just killed himself with Dragnipur after he killed Rake.(this is very similar to the "why didnt Rake just kill himself with Dragnipur in the privacy of Black coral" arguement.)

Well, as I tried to imply in my earlier post, the time inside Drag is completely different than the time outside of it. In other words: if I'm correct (which is a bold thing to believe of course) it lasted less than a second after Rake slammed Drag into his head before the sword could no longer chain souls. A huge guess of course, but it'd explain alot.
This of course barely makes sense since if that's true, why did all those entities still fight over Dragnipur? Since if the sword can indeed no longer bind any souls, it surely is just a normal weapon, like any other sword, only that it has a rich history? My thought is the sword had to be protected and destroyed because it still had the gate to Kurald Emurh..;euh... you know... the warren of darkness thingy And perhaps also to Chaos. But since it couldn't bind souls any longer (and the souls were most likely spilled out again in some unknown place) Dassem couldn't possibly try to pursue Hood just yet.

And Rake couldn't kill himself with Drag in the privacy of BC because he obviously had to pick up Hood first, he promissed it.

I'm going to disagree here. I think that all this goes down in D-stan because Rake wants as many as possible powerful entities around to protect the sword until Brood can shatter it. I am fairly certain it still had the power to Chain. Rake chained Draconus after slaying him, and Draconus had already begun chaining people...

Draconus didn't stop the wagon from moving though. Draconus just went and pulled like the rest of the chained ones.

[HoosierDaddy]

It does stop before Rake enters. Anyway, why do you think that the ability to chain has anything to do with the momentum of the wagon?

[SonOfDarkness]

Both were fighting a fight not to kill the other is what im getting from some of the posts above.

Rake wants to be killed with Dragnipur by Dassems blow.

Dassem wants Rake to kill him with Dragnipur

With that we can confirm that Suicide will not be tolerated by dragnipur.


So can we really say that Rake is better than Dassem at swordsmanship? None of them are trying to kill each other, both are trying to NOT kill each other, so its not real life threatning combat is it.
Im just playing the devils advocate here.

[Mcflury]

I dunnow. Was just guessing I guess

Are you sure the wagon had stopped already before Rake entered? Who or what made it stop then?
We might be going off-topic though.

[Andirak]

Hood said something like 'turn it around'.
And also, I recall Draconus saying that 'for the first time in millennia the wagon came to a halt', or some such. And this was before Rake entered.
Dassem can feel Hood close-by, but he doesn't seem to know for sure where he is. Of course one wonders about Hood's body, I can't remember any mention of it before the fight.

[Lisheo]

Hood pops in, says the wagon isn't as impressive as he thought, then says: "Now, turn it around."

[BeLeG]

When Dassem sees Rake he asks
"Where is he?I can feel him close"

Why did he ask if he knew that Rake had Dragnipured Hood?

[Lisheo]

Dassem probably didn't realise Hood had been Dragnipur-ed immediately.

[Grief]

There was speculation around that dragnipur actively tries to stop you dying, such as with Rake killing Apsal'ara.

Umm, im not sure dassme knew hood was there.

Also,even if both wanted in the sword, it was still life threatening:

Rake needs to manipulate the fight so he dies.

Dassem needs to try to force Rake to kill him, probably by threatening Rake strongly enough the only way to stop him is kill.

Therefore, Dassem would be trying his hardest to get Rake to kill him, assuming he knew, but Rake manages to deflect all his shots, without touching him, and force Dassem to kill him.

[Andirak]

Grief, on Dec 20 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

There was speculation around that dragnipur actively tries to stop you dying, such as with Rake killing Apsal'ara.

Why is this interpreted that way? IMNSHO it didn't seem as if Dragnipur reacted by itself. Rake had not intended to kill her, but the moment she tried, well, it was within his rights to return the favor. And he did.

Back on topic, I am less and less convinced that Dassem was aware Hood was in the sword, and so was trying to get Dragnipured. Maybe afterwards, but not before the fight. He could feel him close, but he didn't know where he was. He could have been hiding in the next basement for all he knew.

Regardless, I can't ignore the fact that just a moment before Rake couldn't even stand. Yes, the weight thing. That he held Dassem back at all tells me he is at least his match.

One could argue that Dassem wasn't at his full power, but that seems unlikely. He had to know something about Rake's reputation, and that the Son of Darkness is someone you got at with all you got. But even that would be secondary to the fact that Rake stood in Dassem's way to his obsession vengeance, would not step aside, and that was enough for Dassem to kill him. And it read that way, he was trying to kill him.

So all things considered, Rake is better at this business than Dassem. After all, a few hundred millennia of experience gotta come with perks.

This post has been edited by Andirak: 22 December 2008 - 12:57 AM

[foolio]

Quote

After all, a few hundred millennia of experience gotta come with perks.

unless your name is Orfantal

This post has been edited by foolio: 23 December 2008 - 04:33 PM

[Andirak]

foolio, on Dec 23 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

Quote

After all, a few hundred millennia of experience gotta come with perks.

unless your name is Orfantal

You have a point there.